After seeing a very disturbing sale on ebay, I thought I would post some information about the following item.
Perceived Prewar Hat
My condolences to the person who recently bought the reproduction on ebay, as in my opinion you were taken in by a fraudster.
NWL
Awesome
NationWideLines,
Thanks for the heads up on the switches. How these switches got in with the American Flyer set will just remain a mystery for the ages. I'll guess that the original owner was a lucky boy who got extra track and equipment for his train set.
In keeping with our recent theme of clockwork trains let me complete the collection of photos of the types of track available in the 1914 catalog.
In the upper left of the above photo you can see the No. MX Crossover.
The crossover below is included in the American Flyer set that belongs to The Marathon County Historical Society. It has been damaged and re-soldered.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods,
I believe that the switches you have shown may be Hafner items. I know that the early flyer catalogs 1916-1919 show the windup switches having the switch levers/throws similar to the ones on the pair of switches that I have. I have seen other switches like yours being advertised as Hafner switches. Since Hafner's early years were somewhat of a divergence from American Flyer after Mr. Hafner left Flyer, I can see where the general appearance of their switches might be similar, but yet the two companies would wanted to distinguish themselves from each other, and possibly having different switch levers/throws may have been the way.
Since the Flyer catalogs tend to show the switch levers/throws similar to the switches I have and the last railroad ties are similar to the Flyer track, which is also shown in the Flyer catalogs, I would guess that the switches I have are definitely American Flyer production.
However, I cannot be certain as to what company produced the switches you have shown.
Hello Bluecomet390,
Welcome to the thread. I assume that the set you are referring to is the M20 that Mersenne6 has photos of in his post above. One of the things I enjoy about collecting of any type (but especially American Flyer trains) is that they turn up at unexpected times and in unexpected places. I also enjoy the stories of how the trains were found.
What else can you tell us about the set that turned up on Vancouver Island?
mersenne6,
I noticed the target at trackside by the double switch in your first picture and I wondered what it was. Thanks for pointing out that it is the automatic brake section. Those Flyer folks were pretty clever people. I really like seeing the entire set displayed. Thanks for posting the photos.
NationWideLines said:
"Here are pictures of another set of early switches. These are Flyer switches and I am guessing they date to the mid to late teens, c. 1917-1918. These switches are identifiable by the two ties at the ends of the switches. These are banked ties and their means of attachment are to punch out areas on each side of the rail and bend it up over the bottoms of the rail. This is how Flyer was attaching the rails to track during this time.
...and if you look at No. MBS in the upper right corner of the last page you posted you can see this automatic brake section below the outside locomotive in the first picture I posted in my last post.
Mersenne6,
Those are great pictures. It is a treat to see a complete set and to see those switches "in action".
I have a reprint of the American Flyer 1914 catalog that was done by TTOS in 1980. In the body of the catalog it says that it was a reprint of the 1914 catalog reprinted by TCA in 1961. This is the cover.
The layout is very similar to the set that you have.
The inside of the front cover does show and describe the M20 set. The text on this page and several others makes me wonder if this was intended to be a consumer catalog or a dealer catalog.
One of the pages toward the end of the catalog illustrates track and accessories, and there is the Double Track Switch
No. M218
And the left and right switches that have been posted previously.
Northwoods FlyerWhat other Flyer equipment did you inherit from your cousins? Inquiring minds want to know. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Just the passenger set. I have a large freight set with link couplers that I assumed came with the only other Flyer steamer I have, it is much larger & longer, and is missing leading and trailing trucks.
Rob
Those are the switches that I was talking about and it is great to see a photo of them. I acquired a set similar to the set Mersenne6 showed on page 10, except I did not get the switches, only the remains of one of the switches (the long tie at the end of the switches that goes between the two sets of track). However, I got a similar passenger set and similar freight set. The only difference I saw relating to Mersenne6's set is that I have a more unusual gondola with my set. My understanding of American Flyer cars / production features, leads me to believe that this car dates to 1915-1916 production, which would be slightly earlier than the 1109 with winged locomotive that Mersenne6 shows with his set. However, since the set was apparently cataloged for a couple of years in the mid to late teens, there are likely differences between the differing sets, depending on when they were produced.
The gondola that came with my #20 set was the brown one pictured below.
mersenne6 Northwoods, yup, that's the switch. NWL - I think the double switch you are referring to is the switch set up for Flyer Set M20. There's a picture of the complete set back on page 10, however the picture was set up to mirror the catalog cut so the switch assembly isn't obvious. If I have the time this weekend I'll pull the set out and take a picture of the switch assembly.
Northwoods, yup, that's the switch. NWL - I think the double switch you are referring to is the switch set up for Flyer Set M20. There's a picture of the complete set back on page 10, however the picture was set up to mirror the catalog cut so the switch assembly isn't obvious. If I have the time this weekend I'll pull the set out and take a picture of the switch assembly.
If you would like to go back to page 10 and see mersenne6's post click here 10
I sent my email to JDET1 and he promptly sent me the following photos. I agree with JamesP; these are definitely now on my "Wanted List" too. I am going to have to stop coming to this thread. I keep finding more and more areas of Flyer production that I would like to collect.
The willingness of participants to share information and photos is one of the things that I enjoy about this forum.
I have a matched pair of crossovers similar but not exactly the same as 218 above, but have not been able to upload a picture. Is there an email address to which I can send a jpg?
Here is a drawing of the double switch from the same AF catalog that I posted from before (unknown year):
That one is definitely on the wish list...
- James
That is the set/switch I was referring to. Although I have the set, I did not get the switches with the set, only the remains of one switch.
mersenne6 Flyer made at least one other spring switch without a switchstand for the electric trains. I posted pictures of the switches on this thread but I can't recall offhand the page number.
Flyer made at least one other spring switch without a switchstand for the electric trains. I posted pictures of the switches on this thread but I can't recall offhand the page number.
You have a posting about electric switches #405 back on page 27. Is this the post you are thinking of?
Look here 27
Thanks for all of the great information about switches folks. I had no idea that Flyer made so many for clockwork trains.
I recently showed this engine to Alan Schuweiler and NorthwoodsFlyer at a local train show. Alan indicated that his opinion of the engine was that it was a factory made item, which was my opinion as well. He was not sure if it is a one-of-a-kind item or if it was one of the first 75 electric engines (per a known factory memo) that American Flyer made to test the market in 1918.
The motor has a couple of unusual features, most notably the round/tube brushes that did not appear on regular production American Flyer motors until c. 1925.
Another notable thing about the motor is that although the armature brackets do not match the known / regular production brackets, these items were not something that were added after it was made, because their mounting holes are spaced differently from the known / regular production bracket mounting holes and there are no extra holes in the motor frame. Therefore, these brackets and their mounting are unique and original to this motor.
Oh, and the consensus is that all of the gold detail / trim paint is not original to the motor and was likely added by a former child owner.
As to the provenance / history of the item, I have none, other than it was purchased out of the Chicago area in late 2013, reportedly being picked out of a flea market.
If anyone has any thoughts on this motor I would appreciate them.
James,
The switch you show in your picture is nearly identical to the one I have, with the exception of the switch throw mechanism.
As for a 3 way switch, I am unaware of Flyer making such an item, but who knows. I seem to recall that some of the german manufacturers (bing, ???) made 3 way and Y switches and have seen photos of some of these over the years.
I know that Flyer did make/sell an unusual switch for an early set and I have the remains of such a switch. This early set from c. 1914-1916 featured a double track set (inner and outer loops), a freight set, a passenger set, possibly some accessories, and switches to go between the two loops of track. The interesting thing about the switches is that they contained portions of both loops of track, with the switch track connecting between them. I am not sure that I described that right, but essentially, the switches had straight tracks for both loops and a switch between them. The main, long ties had the straights for both loops soldered to them. As I said, I have remains for these switches, but not enough to make one. I know I have at least one of the long ties with solder marks for both of the straights.
NWL, Thank you for posting all the pictures and the information. I don't know what year the catalog is that I scanned the switch illustration from; it is actually an old reprint (1959) of an early Flyer catalog. I haven't seen any original date in the text or drawings.
One reason for the question about the switch in the illustration is that I have a spring switch in the collection that I have been told is an early AF switch. It resembles the switch in the illustration except for the lack of a switchstand. As far as I can tell, it hasn't been modified; it appears that it never had a switchstand, and the spring on the underside appears to be original to the switch. The switch has a lever that can be used to throw it to the straight route, but it must be held in place or it will spring back to the diverging position:
Based on your pictures, it does appear to be the same switch with the exception of the missing switchstand. I suppose that since AF sold an automatic switch in the newer style, it is possible that they sold this earlier version as an automatic spring switch, too... assuming that these are the switches shown in that catalog illustration.
Your second set of switches are equally interesting! I didn't know that some Flyer clockwork track had the crimped ties in that style. It rang a bell with me, so I dug through a box of track I have hoarded away... and sure enough, I found a pair of switches like yours. One is missing the switchstand and the headblock tie it is attached to, the other is complete but very beat up with multiple broken solder joints... hence the reason I hadn't rescued them from the box yet. Now that I know what they are, I will put them on the to-do list to get them usable.
One last question: Did AF ever offer a 3 way switch? I have one in the collection that was a basket case. It was in the same lot as the AF switches I just dug out. I have repaired it, but had to make a few non-original parts to do so. It was originally soldered together in the same way that these AF switches have the rails soldered to the wide ties.
Again, Thank you for the pictures and information,
Here are pictures of some switches that match the catalog drawing that you showed. I am honestly not sure if they are flyer switches or not. I have not verified what year the drawing you show is from, but I am guessing it must be c. 1914? Anyway, here they are.
Strainst, I think you are exactly right. I don't believe that AF sold any clockwork trains with reverse, so they would always run forward. The automatic switch would work fine for the trailing point end of the passing siding, since the train would never back up and run through it in the opposite direction. The track plan you described is the one that I used for a small clockwork demo layout that I take to train shows. This video was taken on that simple layout; I made the video to show the operation of the Flyer automatic switch:
d9YViNNOakA
I think I have seen clockwork track plans where there is an oval track set up with a circle of track inside the oval at one end. This track setup would require two switch track sections, one on each side where the circle track connects to the oval. I guess to keep the cost of the train set as low as possible, only one of the switches has a throw mechanism and the second switch did not. Like the last switch pictured in your posting, it would allow the train to run coming into it from the straight side or the curved side.
strainst
I don't have many AF items in my collection, but I do have some different examples of Flyer clockwork turnouts. In addition to the turnouts that Northwoods Flyer posted, AF also made the same basic switch with a different style of switchstand:
To be fair, I believe that the target on this switchstand is probably homemade! But, the pair of switches have the same matching target - and I kind of like homemade "accessories" from way back when - so I have left them in there.
Here are the two types of turnouts side by side:
In addition, AF also offered an automatic version of these turnouts without a switchstand. It isn't sprung, I assume that it was just intended to be used in trailing point applications. I have two different variations of the automatic turnout, one with the "American Flyer" embossed script, the other plain. This is the plain version:
Note that the pivot is in a different place than on the regular turnouts. There isn't any provision for a switchstand, either.
Do any of you have examples of the early AF turnouts shown in this catalog illustration?
Thank you for the excellent posts on Canadian production. I do not have any of those items in my callection, but as I told you at Mad City Train Show I have been asked to provide some information about a clockwork set that our local historical society has in its collection. It has a Dominion car in the set, but I'll post about that car and set later.
What I do have in the Northwoods Flyer Collection are some pieces that belong to the clockwork era. I was lured into purchasing them by the excellent posts made by you, overlandflyer, AF53 and several othes a number of pages back. I am so easily led astray!
I don't have any two rail clockwork track but I do have a set of turnouts. So I'm ready to start on a clockwork empire.
I do not recall if I have posted these pictures here or not, so I apologize if I have. It is so hard to go back through 80 + pages of information.
Anyway, here are some unmarked and not often seen American Flyer accessories. They came to me with a set, which I know is a cataloged set that included these items. They were also sold as separate sale items up until around 1924 (I think).
First item is a #94 turntable.
Smoky Mountain set c. 1931
Here are photos of a Smoky Mountain set, c. 1931, as found today, from the original owner's family.
This set was the premier freight set of 1931, featuring the new 3300 engine and 3301 tender, both in gloss black. This engine would only be offered in 1931 with the cast headlight visor and red cast iron cab weight, as well as the die cast side rods, which did not prove to be a good design. In 1932, the engine features a different motor, with slightly larger wheels, no cast headlight visor, and no cast iron cab weight. Additionally, the later engines featured a ringing bell and were painted more of a semi gloss black instead of the gloss black of the 3300.
1931 also marks a year in which the O gauge truck styles change, with the 3301 tender having the later style trucks and the freight cars having a mix of early and late style trucks.
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