Oh my, you are right! It might be power of suggestion, but it looks that way on my picture of the car ends as well. I'll have to check them out when I get home tonight. Maybe there was an "upgrade" in the litho at some point.
Having had a bit more time to look at your pictures this evening I do notice one additional item. The rivet detail on the car with the shading is more elaborate and, at least on the left hand side, larger than the detail on the car with no shading. This appears to be true for the rivet details on the car sides as well.
Thanks for the info and help guys.
Northwood's truck stamping differences reminded me that my two cars are that way, one with good embossing and one, eh, not so much. Not sure if it's coincidence or what but the car with the better trucks is the one with the shaded windows on the ends. The car with the worse stamping is also missing the shading.
Hmmmm.....
Very interesting observations and conversations gentlemen. handyandy, you are obviously a detail oriented person. All of this drove me to look at the cars in my collection. I don't have many cars with the actual 1306 included in the lithograpy. The few that I do have all have the black shading on the windows on the end except for the brown version of the cars that I have.
I have 3:
Notice that the two cars on the left have the black shading and the one on the right is missing the black shading on the upper windows just like handyandy's car.
I purchased the two cars on the left at the same time and added the one on the right some time later.
All three of the cars have Type II trucks
The two cars on the left have very distinct and clear embossing.
The trucks on the car without the end window shading appear to be from worn dies.
I tend to think that the lack of shading is a printing error rather than a genuine change in lithography as mersenne6 proposes. It does give the variation hunter something else to look for. These small differences give an insight into the manufacturing process. I know that Nationwidelines has a number of examples of slight differences in the production process. It all lends credence to the statement that its easier to find differences in American Flyer production than it is to find identical items.
Mersenne6's observation about the sheets of lithography made me wonder if there are any uncut examples of Pre War Flyer lithography in existence. I have never heard of any but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I realize that it is unlikely, but I know that there are sheets of uncut Marx lithography out there. I'm sure plenty of these sheets were reused for other projects or went into scrap collections during the war.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
As of today (10 September 2014) one of these cars is listed on e-bay. It has later trucks and it has the shading in place on the litho (I agree with Nationwide - this is the only difference I can see). I checked my 1306 which I know was made in 1925 because of the set number and original sales slip. It is the dark green litho and it has the shading in place on the end windows.
As Nationwide noted this could be a variation or it could just be a litho misprint. If it was a misprint it would most likely be due to a flaw in the litho print set up for perhaps one row of the print sheet which would result in most of the cars having end shading and a few (how many would depend on the size of the printed sheet) without the shading accent. At this late date probably the only way to determine if it is an actual print change would be to find a boxed set with all of the cars having the simplified end treatment.
This is a really great thread. Lots and lots of good information. Sorry to change the subject, but I have a question concerning some AF 1306 passenger cars I recently acquired. I have been trying to figure out when they were made. Looking through this thread it would seem these cars have the later style roof with early style frame and trucks placing them in the mid '20's. One thing about them that is different (besides the shade of the red car bodies) is a slight variation in the lithography of the ends. Notice the upper panels on either side of the end door. The one on the left has just a simple frame around it, but the one on the right has a 3-D look to it to go along better with the lower panels. Is there any information about when this change was made? Or perhaps is the "flat" panel design on the left a misprint of the litho?
Thanks for any help with this and thanks for making all this info available!
Northwoods,
Here are some more variations of green Pennsylvania 1113/1116 cars. I realize that some of these may be the same variations as the ones you have shown, so I apologize for the duplicates.
I will let you post your last variation prior to posting the last two variations I have, as I suspect they are similar
NWL.
Nationwidelines,
Your collection of sand cars is absolutely stunning. I've found that those earlier small sand cars are very difficult to find, in any kind of condition. Your collection of the 9.5 lithographed cars is very impressive. I have never even seen any of them in person. Thanks for your contributions.
Now back to the more mundane.
The 6.5 lithographed sand cars came in a variety of road names. I posted several of the NYC variations a page back. Here are some variations of the Pennsylvania version.
The 5 variations that I have collected so far are all numbered 1116, just as the NYC variations are.
I have very few 4 wheel cars, but I made an exception for this Pennsylvania example.
Schuweiler states that four wheel cars (1113) were cataloged from 1930-1935, and eight wheel cars (1116) were cataloged from 1930-1932. Four wheel cars were cataloged as 1113 although most were numbered 1116 in the lithography as this example is.
All of the Pennsylvania variations use this herald
Two of the cars appear to be identical except for one small detail. Both have Type V trucks, however one has one brass ladder per side,
while the other example does not.
The 4th variation has Type VI trucks and although Schuweiler does not differentiate the colors of the interiors this one has a snazzy red interior.
The red interior is more evident in the next photo.
I have one more variation of the Pennsylvania 1116 sand car, but I'll save it for my next post.
Finally, the last car in the series, the NYC gondola c. 1925-1927. I am still searching for a better one to match the condition of my others.
NWL
Here are two more of the litho gondolas from the 1925-1927 era.
The Illinois Central Side A
Side B
And the Pennsylvania Side A
Keeping with the sand car posts, here is a litho 9 inch freight c. 1925-1927. This one is lettered for Union Pacific.
Side A
Note the inside of the gondola in the photo above shows a negative/reverse image of the outside lithography. Never seen this before.
The visible inside walls of this side are painted black, which is normal.
Here are some less common very early sand car variations. I know they probably have been posted previously, but here they are again.
c. 1910 In addition to an apparent red body matching frame, the car also appears to have had a gold stripe around the top edge. Unfortunately, most of the gold stripe and frame paint has chipped/flaked and is missing.
c. 1912 Main difference with this one and the 1910 model, is the two step frame instead of 3 steps, two halves of the car body join differently, and butterfly coupler instead of earlier style coupler.
c. 1915-1916 with 1109 lettering and rivet detail in litho with brown litho.
c. 1915-1916 same as above, but green litho
c. 1917 unlettered car lithographed in red. This car is very interesting because the two halves of the body join similar to the c. 1912 car, but the lip along the top edge of the body folds inside of the body similar to the 1916 era car. The car frame has the square punch out for the coupler slot, which dates to c. 1917 only.
c. 1918 car with winged engine herald. The car has the c. 1918 style couplers and once again the lip at the top edge of the car is folded to the outside of the body, similar to the c. 1910 and 1912 cars.
I guess that concludes the early 5.5 inch 4 wheel gondola variations that I know of.
Sand Cars and Gondolas
In my experience and observation the most common freight car that American Flyer produced was the gondola or as Flyer called it the "sand car". It makes sense since they were easier to produce, and they also provided a lot of play value. Just imagine the types of loads that a child could easily place in an open car. I've also noticed that you can find many variations of sand cars. Because they were cataloged for so many years they went through the changes of frames and trucks and couplers that Flyer made.
This musing was brought on by a recent purchase of a #1116 lithographed sand car. I've been collecting these for years and I've been surprised by the number of variations that exist. According to Schuweiler the #1116 (usually an 8 wheel car) and the #1113 (usually a 4 wheel car) were cataloged from 1919 through 1935. For folks who like to collect variations this little car provides an opportunity to collect many of them and not to spend a lot of money. Building a collection of sand cars is the American Flyer Pre War equivalent of the thread illustrating collecting cheap classics in the Lionel line illustrated elsewhere on this forum.
So lets begin with the #1116. This is a 6 1/2" lithographed sand car.
The first example is a green car with NYC marking.
To date I've found 4 variations:
1.
This one has Type II trucks (Flyer used this truck from 1914 through 1924)
2.
This one has Type IV trucks (used from 1924-1927)
3.
This one has Type Va trucks (used from 1927 through 1930)
4.
This one has Type VI trucks (used from 1928 through 1933)
More to come......
Nationwidelines Let us try this again. That is a better posting of the photo of the tender with the inexpensive trucks without journals. I have this tender with a set of 3176-3177 cars in red. c. 1937
Let us try this again.
That is a better posting of the photo of the tender with the inexpensive trucks without journals. I have this tender with a set of 3176-3177 cars in red. c. 1937
I had a feeling that I had one of these tenders somewhere in my collection. Sure enough, it took a while, but I finally found my example. So here is my Type XII tender (1936-1937), probably #1231 with Type X trucks.
Obviously mine is not in the same condition as Nationwidelines'
Northwoods - That was a nice tribute to an amazing artist.
Nationwidelines - Nice, having the original boxes really adds to the hobby.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
On page 44 Mersenne6 posted the following photograph showing an odd variation of the 3010 tank car.
The car is notable due to it having a late frame and trucks and the body of the tank being punched for number plates and ladders, which were never installed and did not appear until 1928 on the enameled cars.
I have since discovered the following example, which is identical to Mersenne6's car.
I believe this car to be late 1927 production when Flyer was developing the enamel painted cars. It appears that they likely test ran a few cars for the punching of the number plates and ladders and mounted them on their new frame / trucks that they were developing for 1928.
Below is a picture of an earlier variation of the same car.
Differences between the two variations that I noted are:
1 The frame is different in that the sides of the frame are not as tall on the late version
2 The frame on the late version is punched for not only the ladders (with the holes partially or totally filled with paint) but it is also punched for the brass steps, which were riveted on to the 1928 production cars.
3 The trucks on the later version have punched out centers, which are found on the 1928 freight and passenger cars
4 Obviously the tank body itself is punched for the plates and ladders
5 The later version has brass ends and a brass dome, as compared to the early version which has either a nickel finish.
6 The later variation has only 3 supports for the hand rail, while the early version has 5 supports for the hand rail
7 One of the more interesting things is that I have original boxes for both variations and the early variation comes in a 2 piece box that has an end label and the later variation comes in a 1 piece box with the number 3010 being rubber stamped on the box. My early variation was a separate sale item as it has a price tag and perhaps my later variation was included in a set, which would only require a simple rubber stamped number on the box.
This is the American Flyer smiling boy illustration that we are posting about. It was used as the catalog cover art for catalogs from 1922 through 1924.
By the way, this is one of the images available from John Holtman's digital collection of Pre War American Flyer Catalogs. As Ogaugeoverlord reported, John no longer has a license from Lionel to market these discs. But, they are available until Sept. 30.
www.hslinc.com
Enjolying the World's Greatest Hobby
It wasn't so much the boy himself as it was the stylized signature letter "P" at the bottom part of the picture. He noted this in his initial post at the bottom of page 45. Later I communicated with Peter on a side conversation and from time to time I've wondered about his research efforts - I'll have to look at the youtube offering this evening - thanks for posting this.
The following entry appears back on page 45
Hello-
I was searching through American Flyer illustrations on Goggle images when I came across the illustration of the American Flyer boy you posted in 2008. This illustration, signed with a "P", is a work of my late father's, Louis A. Paeth, who was an artist/illustrator of 1920's and 1930's Chicago. Recently, I saw a listing on Ebay of an old 1933 American Flyer catalog that featured a cover illustration that looked like it could have been painted by my father. When I learned that American Flyer had once been a Chicago-based company, I started searching the internet and came across your posted image.
I'm curious to know of the year of this illustration, what year catalog did it appear in? Also, if you have any other information about any other illustrative works from this era's catalogs, I would be most interested. I'm trying to piece together my father's early art career in Chicago; I'm amazed to find a signed illustration, thank you so much for putting it on the internet!
Any help you could provide would be most appreciated...thank you
Peter Paeth
This entry led to several additional entries about catalog cover art on pages 46 and 47. The thing that fascinated me the most was that Peter was able to identify the American Flyer smiling boy as the work of his father Louis A. Paeth. I am passing on a link to a Youtube video that NationWideLines sent to me. It is a video that Peter has posted of his father's work. You will see the iconic smiling boy as well as a number of other train and railroad illustrations that Louis Paeth produced in the video. Peter has produced a wonderful tribute to his father
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7L8VtpkTp4
Lets try a little splicing.
Here is a photo of a gunmetal gray tender variation. Note it has the cheap truck frames with no journal box frames.
I think it worked. Welcome back NWL.
I guess the last post is better than not being able to post a normal text.
Thanks to Northwoods for suggesting that I try Google Chrome for posting.
?tn= 248337785
Type XXI (1936-1939) Pennsylvania locomotive
Part 3
In 1939 the Type XXI sheet metal locomotive gets an extreme makeover.
The wheel arrangement is still the 2-4-4 arrangement, but the sheet metal skirt on each side has been cut away to expose the drive wheels and running gear.
The tender gets a new look with a bold, black, white and blue decal.
The engine gets a nose job. It has a new die-cast front end piece that makes it look like the styling of the New York Central's Twentieth Century Limited.
Part 2
The Type XXI changed color and wheel arrangement in 1937 and remained that way in 1938.
The wheel arrangement is changed to 2-4-4.
The color of the engine and the tender are changed to grey.
This is one of my favorite engines, partly because I played with it as a child and watched it travel around the Christmas tree for hours.
Now that we've taken a fairly thorough look at the variations of the Type XX locomotive lets move on to:
American Flyer introduced this streamlined locomotive in 1936. The body of the engine is sheet metal while the boiler has a die cast front. The wheel arrangement is an odd 0-4-2 design.
The engine is an interpretation of The Broadway Limited engine designed by Raymond Loewy.
To compliment the new style of engine Flyer introduced a new sheet metal tender (Type XII).
In this first year the engine and tender are both black.
Back on page 75 there are additional posts about this engine and photos of the two sets that it led in the 1936 catalog.
More to come............
As promised a few entries back, there is another set from 1939 that featured the Type XX sheet metal engine and tender.
1939 Set No. 302 Freight Train
The freight set contains the following:
The No. 403 Remote Control locomotive and tender
The No. 228 Log Car ( mine is missing the load and a brake wheel)
The No. 229 Box Car
The No. 232 Caboose
The set also has the 1939 automatic sheet metal couplers.
Once again American Flyer (now by Gilbert) made use of existing stock to create a good looking entry level set.
A few entries back we were documenting the variations of the Type XX sheet metal locomotive. I have been away on vacation for a few weeks but Nationwidelines sent the following information to me about another variation. He has been having difficulty posting photos to the thread.
"You just posted photos of your set 301 from 1939. I have a nearly identical set 301 that came with a variation of the 401 locomotive that you have not yet posted. Both the engine and tender are quite rare and I have never seen another tender like this.
I believe this to be a very late 1939 production engine, which is gunmetal gray with nickel trim. The nickel trim is generally reported for the 1940 models of this engine and in black only. The other unique item is the decals on the tender and it somewhat speaks for itself. This is a 100% original engine and tender that came to me as a set with the red cars like you have.
It is a sharp looking engine and tender combination. A theory on the tender is that it is near the end of production and Flyer ran out of the large billboard type decals that are normally found on this tender. All I know is that I have showed it to several people who specialize in the 1938-1941 era flyer and nobody has seen one before. The engine in gray with nickel trim does show up occasionally, but it is also quite rare."
Nationwidelines
Thanks NWL. This is a very interesting variation, and something to add to the list of things to watch for.
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