Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

We have had some great postings recently. 

 

NationWideLines I am intrigued by the number of variations that you have been able to find. I recognize some of the variations of the Watchman’s Tower.  I particularly like the one with the tan tower and base. 

 

I will have to survey my examples.  I know I have some with the alternate lithographed building. 

 

The boxed car assortment is a real find.  I didn’t know that Flyer ever offered something like that. It would be interesting to document what came in each of the assortments.  I wonder why Flyer didn’t continue to offer the assortments.  Lionel certainly found it lucrative enough to continue the practice. 

 

Vintageflyer, you have documented some interesting variations of the Type XXI Streamlined Pennsylvania engine. I only have one example in my collection that heads up a freight set. It is the one that I inherited as part of our family trains. 

 

 

 

I’ve been looking for another one to head up the passenger set from the same year.  Now I have some additional information to help me in my hunt.

 

Mersenne6, I really like the story from Louis Hertz.  I think it has been repeated many times.  I know that my entry into the collecting phase of toy trains began when I went to the local hobby shop in 1982 to add some track and perhaps an engine to the trains that I brought from home to put around the Christmas tree for my wife’s and my first Christmas together.  And as they say, the rest is history. 

The entries on this page are a good example of why I started this thread in the first place.  There is so much information to share about the history of American Flyer and its producion of toys through the years.  It amazes me that there is always something new to share.  Thanks to everyone who reads the thread and contribues.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Here is a very unusual boxed item. 

Box 1127 - this number is only listed in the 1925 Dealer's Price List and is listed as a "Car Assortment".

There are actually 3 listings under Car Assortments, item 1125, 1126, and 1127.  All of the Car Assortments are comprised of 6 differing cars, packed in one box.  The lower the number, the lower the priced item. 

Car Assortment 1127 is listed as comprising (1105-1106-(2)-1115-1116-1117) and priced at $4.20.

These boxes are somewhat rare to find and note below the 1127 number is a faint rubberstamp indicating "1/2 Dozen".

 

 

I know that Lionel sold similar items, but Flyer appears to have listed these items only in 1925.  I did note that the price lists from c. 1923-1924 indicate that 6 similarly priced cars could be packaged together in one box, but there is no number listed for such items.

 

Anyway, here is a picture of the contents.

 

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

So here is another odd and interesting variation that I only recently found.  It is a 214 Watchman's Tower, which I am guessing is a first year or very early issue.

Note it has celluloid window inserts that are riveted in place.  Additionally, the roof is red, which is a color I have never observed on this piece.

 

 

 

 

 

The 214 was basically the later and lighted version of the 92 Watchmans Tower, which I have found in these colors previously.

 

 

 

 

I have also found the 214 Watchman's Tower in these variations previously.

 

 

 

 

 

It appears likely that the red roof of my odd variation was something that was normally used on the 236 Crossing Set, as seen below.

 

 

The 235 Water Tank set also used a red roof, but it did not feature the cutout for the post.

 

 

However, the truly odd feature of my unusual variation is the windows inserts that are riveted in place.  A friend reported that he has one of these early 214 Watchman's Towers with window inserts, but they are not riveted in place in his variation. 

 

NWL

[vintageflyer]

Northwoods,

I would like to submit two photos from my train collection of two variations of the

Type XXl Pennsy that I have found. I believe these to be a 1937 version and a 1938 version.

The first difference that caught my eye were the color variations. The '37 version seems to be more brownish compared to the more silver '38 version, which matches my '39 #417 version.

Next in the photo of the bottom, you may note.

 1) The reverse unit in '37 was still the two position "wig wag" type (for lack of a better term), while the '38 has a drum type like the later #417 version.                

 2) The idler gear in'37 was a single cast gear, while the '38 has a two piece steel gear.

 3) The cab wieght in '37 was the same "crowned wedge" (used on many other flyer locos) as the black '36 version, while the '38 has a larger "U" shaped wieght. This required holes in the cab floor corners as you can see in the upper right of the photo. 

 4) The front of the trailing trucks are of different lengths along with the shape of the rear motor mount.

 Lastly, the drive wheels on the '37 version are painted black as the '38 version had chemically blacked wheels. Also note that the '39 #417 had silver colored drivers.

 

 

 

 

 

[mersenne6]

   Prewar Flyer,  For some reason your story sounds familiar - I seem to recall Hertz mentioning something similar back in 1956. 

 "The sequence of events about to be described has happened countless times before, and will be re-enacted even more times in the days and years to come. One of its acts may well be taking place somewhere at the very moment you read these lines.

 

  Scene: A local hobby shop.  Mr. Smith enters, exchanges greetings with the proprietor, nods to Mr. Jones, whom he knows by sight, and idly watches their transaction as he awaits his turn. Mr. Smith notices that Mr. Jones evidently has just bought a new HO gauge locomotive kit, and then Mr. Jones’ other purchase catches his eye. It’s a big old model locomotive, which doesn’t really look too much like a prototype locomotive at all, and is rather scratched and dented, yet Mr. Jones evidently regards it quite proudly and can hardly keep his eyes off it while it is being wrapped.

 

  After Mr. Jones has left, Mr. Smith’s curiosity gets the better of him. “What on earth was Jones doing with that piece of junk? It looks like something one of Noah’s kids must have played with in the Ark.”

 

  “Why, don’t you know? He’s a collector of old model trains. He’s got one of the best collections in town. That engine was quite a find.”

 

  “You mean there are people who actually collect that stuff? “

 “Sure, lots of them.”

 

  At this point, more likely than not, Mr. Smith raises his eyebrows, thinks somewhat pityingly of Mr. Jones, and may even make a spinning cartwheel motion with his right forefinger close to his ear. 

 

  Scene the second: The same hobby shop, a few weeks or so later. Mr. Smith again, speaking somewhat hesitantly: “You know, I’ve been thinking…I had an electric train when I was a kid, that my folks gave away afterward. It was O gauge and had a black engine with the headlight socket sort of sunk into the front of the engine body.” He pauses and looks a little sheepish. “You know, I wouldn’t mind getting a train like that again to sort of stand on a shelf over my layout. Do you think you might be able to find me one? I don’t remember the number. I had a lot of catalogs I saved when I was a kid and threw them out just a few years ago. I wish I’d kept them.”

  “Well, we might get in an engine like that sometime. You never can tell what we’ll pick up or get in trade. The only thing I can say is, you check with me every so often and see what’s come in.”

 

 Scene the last:  The same shop, several months later. Mr. Smith again: this time he rather bustles in, with rather an air of eager expectancy on his face:

  “Got any old trains?”

  “Not much this time. You should have come in last week. I had quite a batch of stuff, with some Bing cars and Ives cars in real nice shape, but your friend Jones was in Saturday and pretty well cleaned me out. He didn’t buy this engine though; said he already had one.”

 

  “I’ll take it! Boy, Bing and Ives Cars! That fellow Jones has all the luck! Still, “and Smith’s face brightens at the thought,  “ I beat him to that Dorfan set they had in the second-hand store downtown a couple of weeks ago. You should see it! The original paint, almost like new and the castings perfect. It’s a beauty!”

 

From Collecting Model Trains

[vintageflyer]

Thanks Northwoods Flyer,

  I am currently interested in finding/collecting prewar Flyer variations, so stumbling upon this forum is great. I only wish that I had found it sooner! My father joined the TCA in 1977. The next year, I joined after attending a few train meets per his invitation. Here's one I'll bet you never heard before. "I was only going to find some more track to add to the S gauge set that I got as a kid.... and maybe some more cars..... and maybe another loco."

   I found a great group of people who more than happy to get rid of "that S gauge stuff." They were obviously Lionel guys, and gladly told me to "take this whole box" for 20-40 dollars! Aah the good ole days.

In the bottom of one of those boxes was a rough painted over set, that was later identified as a Marx 666 (too rusty to restore), and a set of six inch Flyer coaches. O gauge? Well maybe a little. We restored the coaches by matching the original color with automotive enamel. Soon a 3103 electric was restored. Then I thought a steam freight set would be nice, so I found a 3304 six inch eight wheel cars. That was going to be it! And you all can imagine the rest.

  As soon as I can figure out how to get my pics posted, I would like to share variations that I have collected, see if others have found the same.

                            Thank You, Prewar Flyer   

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi vintageflyer,

Welcome to the forums and welcome  to the thread.  Its always good to have another Flyer enthusiast join us here.  In my opinion whether you collect a few pieces of American Flyer equipment, or a room full, or if you collect information about Flyer - you are an American Flyer Collector.  

Thanks for the reminder about the different sizes of the wheels and the adaptations that Flyer made to their trucks during the years of production. 

Please tell us more about your collection and how you got interested and involved with Flyer.  Consider posting some photos of the things that you have collected; even if they have been posted before.  Its always fun to see what other things folks are interested in.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[vintageflyer]

Hello folks. First I would like to say, what an awesome discussion. And thanks to all who have contributed, with pics from their fabulous collections! Being a Flyer collector of a much less caliber, I am truly blown away! I would like to add a personal observation here that I am sure someone has noticed. That is that the trucks and wheels on the first series of these cars and other cars of this era (I call 1928 era), have larger diameter wheels than the later trucks. The trucks are also different as they are bent above and below the radius in the frame sides to allow for the wheel diameter variation. I can see this in your pics. And have found this in my own collection. Thanks Again!

[mersenne6]

  You two are really getting to me. I do believe you have cornered the market in left hand block signals!  Oh well, maybe one day.  Nice find NWL.

[Northwoods Flyer]

NWL,

Great find! And it is in like new condition.  Even that little ball is present on the top of the finial.  Most of the examples that I have seen have that part broken off.  Beside having the green base (that is a nice holiday touch by the way) it is the less common red color, and even more interesting (and uncommon) it is one of those left handed signals that we documented somewhere back on the thread.

As we've said before, Flyer has an amazing number of variations to even the most simple item.

Thanks for posting a great find.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Here is an interesting accessory with a bit of a holiday theme.  The base on this red painted accessory was repainted green at some point after it was assembled.  I am not sure if this is a factory job or by some past owner of the item.  All I can say is the item is like new and in its original box.  The underside of the base retains its red paint.  The green paint was obviously done with a brush, but with the exception of a spot paint slop on the main mast and some on the wiring, there are no visible brush strokes to the green overpaint. 

NWL

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

Your Ambassador cars would be correct with either a 3117 or a 3187.  Due to the black trucks and brass air tanks on the Ambassador cars, my guess is that they date between 1928 and 1931.  They may be a bit earlier production (1928ish) due to the darker red roofs, which I know is a common characteristic of the earlier production cars.  I believe the earilest set of these cars came with an engine that was a darker red that matched the color of the roofs.

From what I have read in the TCA article, the cars with the American Flyer plates above the windows are correct with the 1930 smokey mountain set, so they would have come with a 3198 cast iron engine (whichever variation you select) and the matching 8 wheel tender, similar to my set. 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

NationWideLines and mersenne6,

Great information on the 11" "Ambassador" cars.  I dug out my copy of the July 2011 TCA quarterly and re-read the article.  It has great information, but I'm still confused about some of the information about the cars and sets.

I have two sets of the cars.  Here are some photos of the cars.  I need to learn to take better photos and experiment with lighting.  I know I need to get a better camera.  In any case here we go:

The car on the bottom obviously has "Ambassador" plates above the windows. It has an "American Flyer" plate to the left and a "Club Car 3380" to the right.  The car on the top has "American Flyer Lines" plates above the windows.  It has 2 "Club Car 3380" plates on each side (no wonder Flyer ran out of these plates) The Ambassador car has a bright red body and a darker red roof, almost a maroon color.  The top car has a bright red body and a matching shade of red on the roof. This color pattern follows through on all three cars.  Notice the top car has brass steps on both ends, while the bottom car has brass steps only at the passenger end. The trucks on the bottom car are a dull black,while the trucks on the top car are a glossy black.  The door on the top car is the same color as the roof of the Ambassador car!  I took the photo below with a flash and it shows these differences a bit better.

Here are the pullmans

Both cars have one "Pullman 3381" and one "American Flyer" plate per side.

The Observation cars

They have one "American Flyer" plate and one "Observation 3382" per side.  The Ambassador car has brass steps at one end, the American 
Flyer car has brass steps at both ends.

I would like to match the sets of cars up with the appropriate engine. I have a 3117 to go with the Ambassador plated cars, which according to the information here would be the right engine.  I'm not sure which engine to look for to go with the American Flyer plated cars.  This is where I need help guys. 

After reading the article I know I'll be looking for the other variations of these cars.

More to come....

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

When I bring the site up on chrome, I cannot see any threads.  So I am not sure what is wrong, but it is working fine with IE.

 

I noted that the number of posts per page (and subsequently the number of pages) has changed also.  I also thought of the index, but I cannot imagine redoing the index at this point.

 

Happy Holidays!

[Northwoods Flyer]

I decided I should try it out too.

Edit:  Its working fine with Chrome for me.  The only problem I see is that the number of posts on each page has changed.  That means any index that has been posted is grossly inaccurate.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

  That is a good idea - I see my really old method through AOL completely fails, however it works going through Firefox and using the insert image option above with a copy paste of image location. Here's hoping it continues to do so.

 

[Nationwidelines]

I thought I would try out this new format.  I see that chrome no longer supports the CTT Forums.  At least my post seems to be working fine with Internet Explorer.

 

Just a picture of a lamp, nothing special.

 

 

NWL

[mersenne6]

  Sorry about that Nationwidelines - chalk it up to rented fingers and not double checking the catalog cuts before typing.  I managed to mix up the memory of the early 3195 and the first 3198.  First - I agree with your friend with respect to to production order of the 3198 - pedestal, smooth, sheet metal visor, and for exactly the same reasons.  Second, I'll modify the comment about your set by saying it is the only set I've seen which almost matches the catalog cut.  I think both the pedestal and smooth 3198 engines have to be early 1930 and I think the transition to the sheet metal visor happened before the end of that year.  This belief is just based on the number of sets I've seen which were cataloged with a 3198 and the fact that the vast majority of those I have seen had the version with the sheet metal visor and only a handful were headed by either of the other two.

   The other thing worth noting is that even though the set I have was sold as a Man-o-War it did not come with a set box - just individual car boxes.  Everything looks ok and matches in terms of condition and wear, however, the one thing that bothers me is the the same thing that suprised you - the substituted engine and tender or rather I should say the tender itself.  As noted I have seen a boxed Man-o-War with a 3198 and a 4 wheel tender but in every other instance it was a 3198 with an 8 wheel tender. Every time I've found a set where the stripped down 3190 was substituted for the engine in the catalog cut the substitution only involved the engine itself.

This is the only set I've seen where the substitution of a stripped down 3190 for a 3198 also involved the replacement of the 8 wheel version with the 4 wheel.  The end result is I have come to view this set with suspicion to the point where I've left a typed page in the box containing this set outlining my doubts.  Of course, if like the oddball 3190 with the 3307 motor which I commented on awhile back, I see second set like this in any condition, I'll change my mind.

[Nationwidelines]

Mersenne6,

Thanks for your comments.  

As for the 3198, I know that there are 3 different versions of the engine casting, one with the cast pedestal for the bell, one with no pedestal and no hole for the sheetmetal bell/visor, and one with a tapped hole with screwed on sheet metal bell/visor combination.  I am not actually sure which version came first.  It has been suggested to me that the version with the pedestal came first, the version with nothing was second, and the version with the sheet metal visor was third, but I really do not know.  Your insight of seeing these other versions with cars with gray trucks would seem to indicate that the version with nothing came first.

The person who suggested the production order to me indicated that the pedestal was first as it would have been easier to delete this feature from the casting than add it, and when deleted one would have nothing there for bell/visor and then the adding of a tapped hole for the sheetmetal bell/visor would have been easy to add afterward.  That made sense to me, but who really can tell.  The fact that some of these engines are out there with later cars may indicate that my friend's thoughts on production are incorrect.

All of the other 3198 engines in my collection have the 4 wheel tender like the one you have with your set and I was very surprised to see a 4 wheel tender with your set.

I have not seen very many of these sets with the Ambassador type cars and steam engines.  I have been looking for some correct large cars to go with my 1931 3300 locomotive and I thought the TCA Quarterly article was an excellent reference.  

Until I saw your posting on this set, I did not realize that they were mixing/matching components in these sets, but that does not surprise me as I have found other boxed sets that had mis-matched components that were correct, apparently due to shortages and/or changes in the product during the year.  

I only stumbled across my set by accident and was happy to add it to my collection.

NWL

[mersenne6]

Nationwide,  I had a chance to look over the pictures of your set again and I think it is not only 1930 I think it is probably within the first few months of 1930.  It is the first picture of that set I have ever seen where the components actually match the catalog cut and I am impressed. 

  I've seen sets with the two later versions of the #3198 - the version with the cast pedestal on the boiler front for the bell and the version with the separate sheet metal bell/visor combination and I have seen a set with a 3198 and a 4 wheel tender and the version I have.  All of these sets had cars with gray trucks.  I've never seen a set with black trucks.  It's nice to know that Flyer actually did make the set as illustrated.

[Nationwidelines]

Jclasshero

Ok this looks like the place to ask this question. I came across a Pre war 1270. Not a show piece but something to tinker on. Were is a good place to look for parts to retore it?

It really depends on what parts you are looking for.  Reproduction wheels are available through Henningstrains.com, as well as some other parts.  Trickelcastparts.com also has some of the various diecast parts that are reproduced out of lead.  

Unfortunately, there are some parts that are not available.  For those one often has to find original parts from junker/donor items.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi Jclasshero,

Welcome to the thread.  .  What parts are you looking for?  I haven't entered into the phase of the hobby where I do my own repairs yet; that will happen as I get closer to retirement.  Trickel has a  number of parts and I know that there are others who carry replacement parts.  Be patient, there are a number of folks who read this thread who will be able to provide some answers for you.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

Nationwide, here's what mine looks like.  Given the number of differences I would guess 1931 too.

[Jclasshero]

Ok this looks like the place to ask this question. I came across a Pre war 1270. Not a show piece but something to tinker on. Were is a good place to look for parts to retore it?

[Nationwidelines]

1930 Man-O-War

Back on Page 27 or 28 Mersenne6 describes a 1930 Man-o-War set that he obtained, but unfortunately he never really posted pictures of the entire set.  He described the set as having a number of substitutions for what normally would have came with the set.  I found the descriptions of his set to be very interesting and my guess is that his set dates from mid 1931 or so.

I base this on his description of the cars as having some mixed number and letter boards and the photos which show the cars as having gray painted trucks.  My opinion is also based on an excellent article that was published in the TCA Quarterly in July 2011 that details sets with the 3300 series passenger cars.

Below are photos of a 1930 Man-o-War set that I recently acquired.  Note that my set has American Flyer plates on each car.  Mersenne6 thought that the cars should have Ambassador plates on each car, but in reading the TCA Quarterly article, the cars in the Man-o-War set are correct in having the American Flyer plates, with black trucks and brass air tanks and the 1931 Cumberland set (which featured the new 3300 steam engine) is correct with cars having the gray trucks with cast iron air tanks, like Mersenne6's set.  Therefore, I suspect that Mersenne6's set is a late set that got substitutions to the components.

Based on the TCA Quarterly article, these red 3380 series cars with American Flyer plates and black trucks with brass air tanks are likely some rare cars, as they would only appear in 1930 in the Man-o-War set with the steam engine.  All of the early sets with the St. Paul type electric style locomotives should come with the Ambassador plated cars.  However, some of the later sets (1931 and after with the St. Paul) did come with the mixed letterboard plates, that are lettered for American Flyer, Golden State, and Jeffersonian.  Mersenne6 noted that one of his cars had Jeffersonian plates on it.  

NWL 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Ray,

Its always great to see some Pre War Flyer in motion, even if the video was taken a while ago.  Thanks for posting.

3216  Variations

I know that we have posted variations of the 3216 at other places on the thread, but I just got another one that is interesting because I think that it shows something of the adaptations that that Flyer went through with existing parts.

These are two of the variations that I have posted before. One has 4 - "3216" brass tags on red cross pieces and the other has 4 - " American Flyer Lines" brass tags on red cross pieces.

The most recent variation has 4 - "American Flyer Lines"  brass tags on blue cross pieces.

They all have Type XIV frames, two brake wheels, and Type VIII trucks. The top example has Lionel couplers added by a previous owner.  The interesting thing to notice is that the blue crosspieces are clearly over painted.   The red paint shows through in spots where the blue paint was applied.

And the blue paint is a bit clumpy in spots.

Sorry about the poor focus.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[AF53]

Here is a link to see an old video of it running.

On a side note, it's funny seeing these older videos to see how much changes has taken place over time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUIFvSwHMSI

[AF53]

Northwoods - Here is my version of the 553 Streamlined Engine.

and the tender.

It is part of my Streamliner Freight Train set no. 4004 from 1940. As you can see, they do match one of the two sets you have. Being that it was produced in one year only, strange to have two different models.

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

Thanks for the comments on The Merchant set.  I was looking at a table of stuff at the local show and turned around and there it was!  The only Flyer piece on the dealer's table.  

I am afraid I cannot help you on Gilbert era O gauge.  However, I do know that Hank Thiele is deceased.  I know he lived in the Twin Cities area and passed away a few years ago.  I dealt with him a few times over the years and he was very nice and knowledgeable.

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wow!  NationWideLines that is one beautiful example of The Merchant set. How nice to have the original boxes and set box, and to know its history.  Great find!

553 Streamlined Engine Revisited

The 553 engine and tender combination is part of the Gilbert 3/16" O gauge line. It was only cataloged in 1940.  The engine is given the number 551 and the tender is given the number 552.  The two pieces together are given the number 553.  You  have to love Flyer's numbering system.

Recently I picked up a second 553 and I noticed some differences. While I am not sure that these differences qualify as a variation (Schuweiler doesn't identify them that way) they are worth noting.

Here are my two examples.

It is impossible to tell from my photos but there is a subtle difference in the grey paint used on each engine.  The top example is just a shade lighter in color. The tenders match their engines exactly.  So there must have been at least two paint batches when these were being produced.

The first noticeable difference is that the bottom engine has a decal that says "American Flyer Lines".  The top engine does not have the decal and there is no evidence that it ever had one.

Both engines have a 553 decal.

The next obvious difference is the lettering on the tenders.  The top tender has "American Flyer Lines" stamped in silver in the indented part of the body.  The bottom tender has a decal with white lettering that matches the decal above the running board of the engine. (Schuweiler does make note of this difference in the tenders in his book.)

Another difference is that there are two different trailing trucks used.  I know that these trucks are easily swapped out, but it does present another possible difference.  I'd like to know if anyone else has examples of the two different trailing trucks.

Now when you look at the engines side by side I bet its easier to see the differences.

I think its interesting to find these kinds of differences.  It gives a bit of an insight into the manufacturing process and how things changed as the supplies of materials on hand changed.

So now I can make up the two trains that were headed by this engine in its one year appearance in the catalog; a passenger set and a freight set.

By the way.  If you have Schuweiler's book on Pre War O gauge; if you look at the photo that he uses on page 220 to illustrate the 553 you will notice that it is a 4-6-2 not a 4-4-2.  I wonder if that is a factory original or if it is a 553 shell placed on a 556 Royal Blue chassis.  Does anyone know H. Thiele, or anything about his collection?  We collectors of variations can be very detail oriented.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer