Thanks for your help. I think I am starting to sort this out. The tin Hiawathas had several designations: NWL's 841T (square back with red 1232 4 wheel coaches); Mersenne6's 842 (round back freight); and then the round back with red 1232 4 wheel coaches in my initial post. I think there must have been a square back freight set too.
UPDATE (finally found my book). Sheet metal Hiawathas were not shown in commercial catalogs. The flat freight version usually had a Type 2 coal tender. The cylindrical version usually had a streamlined tender, but some had a Type 1 tender with a long drawbar. The passenger ones illustrated in the book have articulated passenger coaches. The sets with the 1123 and 1223 coaches aren't mentioned in the book.
The 1122 (red) and 1123 (blue streak) 4 wheel cars are listed as uncatalogued. Both are circa 1935. Neither the 8 wheel 1123's or 8 wheel 1223's are in the book.
I'm thinking the 844 you mention, NWL, is the black steam loco with the red 1123 8 wheel coaches.
It looks like the same black steam loco, but with a different tender, heads up the 798 Blue Streak set. I'm not sure what those black steam locomotives are. Update: In the book these sheet metal locomotives seem to be listed as uncatalogued (department store specials) Type 10 locomotives in both 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 wheel arrangements The 1223 and maybe 1123 8 wheel coaches may have been separate sets by themselves. Craig
It looks like the same black steam loco, but with a different tender, heads up the 798 Blue Streak set.
I'm not sure what those black steam locomotives are. Update: In the book these sheet metal locomotives seem to be listed as uncatalogued (department store specials) Type 10 locomotives in both 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 wheel arrangements The 1223 and maybe 1123 8 wheel coaches may have been separate sets by themselves. Craig
I'm not sure what those black steam locomotives are.
Update: In the book these sheet metal locomotives seem to be listed as uncatalogued (department store specials) Type 10 locomotives in both 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 wheel arrangements
The 1223 and maybe 1123 8 wheel coaches may have been separate sets by themselves.
Craig
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer Thanks NWL. I hadn't noticed the difference in letterboards. I only saw the Hiawatha set with 4 wheel 1223's not 8 wheel ones. But I only checked Google images. I have misplaced my guide to AF Prewar trains which might have more info. Does your Hiawatha set have 8 wheel coaches? Craig
Thanks NWL. I hadn't noticed the difference in letterboards.
I only saw the Hiawatha set with 4 wheel 1223's not 8 wheel ones. But I only checked Google images. I have misplaced my guide to AF Prewar trains which might have more info.
Does your Hiawatha set have 8 wheel coaches?
Craig,
I had not paid attention, but my Hiawatha set has 4 wheel coaches.
NWL
Since we're talking about different sets headed by the sheet metal Hiawatha I'll mention that the set number for the Hiawatha freight set in the picture is 842. Inside the set box the cars, locomotive, and tender are "boxed" in cardboard sleeves with the car/loco number rubber stamped on the sleeve.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer Thanks NWL. I'm beginning to think the 1223's were marketed as just an expansion set of coaches -
Thanks NWL. I'm beginning to think the 1223's were marketed as just an expansion set of coaches
-
Actually, I do not believe that they were made as an expansion set, due to the fact that they have the white letterboards instead of following the design of the others. Therefore, I think they must have been made as a separate set.
I actually have a set of the 1223 cars with the white letterboards with an electric hiawatha and freight tender, which came to me as a boxed set. I seem to think it is one of the sets I described above (set 841). I know there is a number on the box, but do not remember it at the moment.
Thanks NWL. I'm beginning to think the 1223's were marketed as just an expansion set of coaches - maybe for the 1123's in a set. These coaches couldn't be simpler in design, but, for me, there is something very appealing about them.
Those seven sets really capure the variety and "character" (for lack of a better word) of American Flyer productions over the years. While I realize American Flyer did base many of their products on real life equipment, they were not pre-occupied with "accurate" detail, and never seemed to lose their artistic flair and charm - at least for most of their prewar models. For me that makes them the most attractive train models.
Seven years is definitly worth celebrating. In keeping with the spirit of the count, here's seven sets spanning the AF prewar period. Since this is 2015 I thought it might be appropriate to haved set #1324 RCT headed by #9915 and made in 1935 as the center piece. Congratulations Northwoods - great job.
The red cars with Hiawatha engine is an uncataloged set that appears in a number of wholesale catalogs.
I have recorded set 841T as comprising the Hiawatha engine you show, with a square back (not the rounded back for coupling to the streamline tender like your engine), the freight tender, and 4 red cars. This set was shown in a Morrow Thomas Hardware Company catalog in the late 1930s.
The same Morrow Thomas Hardware catalog shows set 844 with the black engine with similar type cars with no specification as to their color (ie either Blue Streak coaches or red coaches).
The N. Shure Co. catalog c. 1936? shows set 622 comprising a windup hiawatha engine, freight tender, red combination car (has to be red as there was never a blue combination car), 2 coaches, and several signals.
There certainly may have been other sets using these cars that I have not yet been able to document.
Definitely congratulatons on such a great informative thread.
It has been awhile since I have posted or even followed the forum. On my last post I mentioned my plan to put together a double header. I was waylaid somewhere before that happened. Hopefully I will take that up again at some point. And now I have a year and a half of posts to catch up.
My immediate purpose is to see if you can provide information about some American Flyer coaches - specifically, the 8 wheel 1223's. I have looked over earlier posts on this thread, but didn't find them. I probably overlooked the relevant post. I have also found photos on the Internet of similar cars, but never these cars with a set.
This is what I am trying to find info about. 8 wheel 1223’s. I did see 8 wheel 1123’s with a 4604 locomotive.And 4 wheel 1223’s with a Hiawatha tin locomotive - supposedly uncataloged. Any information will be appreciated. Thanks. Craig
Any information will be appreciated. Thanks.
Northwoods,
Congrats on seven years of this great forum! Thanks for the steeple cab pics. They are one of my favorites. The steeple cab locos must be the most varied and longest produced model Flyer offered.
strainst American Flyer Erector Set I have come across an American Flyer Erector Set in the blue metal case from the late 30's and early 40's. It is incomplete and missing the American Flyer locomotive and transformer. I have been able to find a little information on this set. The first year I think it came with a 1688-3315 Type IX locomotive. The next two years, the set came with a 401 Type XX locomotive and the last two years it came with the 556 Royal Blue locomotive. Is there a way to determine which set I have so I know which locomotive to look for to complete this set? Also is there a site where I can get an inventory of the erector pieces contained in these sets to see what else I may be missing? Thanks Dennis Strickland (strainst)
Hi Dennis,
Your questions appear to be deceptively easy to answer. I am by no means an expert on Erector sets, but as a kid I did have one of the sets that had the walking robot. It actually belonged to my older brother and I believe that he still has remnants of it. I remember many hours of fun with that set, especially building roller coasters.
I did some poking around with Google and came up with a few facts. I'm fairly certain you must have found the same things and visited the same sites. I discovered that it isn't exactly easy to find the information you are looking for.
According to the Gilbert Erector Set Guide Book , the set that you have is the #10 1/2 , also known as the Electric Train Set. It was available from 1938 through 1942. (I'm guessing Gilbert stopped making Erector sets just as they stopped making American Flyer Trains when they turned to war time production)
If you go to the A.C. Gilbert Heritage Society web site you will find a resource titled Erector Parts Guide: Parts from 1933-1962 by Bruce G. Hanson, 2011 edition. Its a wonderfully illustrated guide, and I think you can download it for free. On one of the pages it lists the engines used in the 10 1/2 by year. You are correct for the most part.
In 1938 the 3315 (Type IX) steam engine was included in the set.
In 1939 the set contained the #420 (Type X steam engine) with copper trim.
In 1940 the set contained the #420 again (Type X steam engine) with nickle plated trim.
In 1941 -1942 the set contained the #556 - O gauge version of the Royal Blue
I think the inclusion of these engines in Erector sets, and their eventual seperation from the sets, may help to explain why there seem to be so many orphan examples of these engines. (Just my opinon)
According to this site: harryrinker.com/col-1257.html
Gilbert put the Electric Train Set in a dark blue metal box in 1938 and 1939. If you can believe information that you find on the internet that means that your set contained either the 3315 or the 420 with copper trim.
As far as finding a complete list of the other parts in the sets, I wasn't able to find one. I suppose you could go through the Parts List book by Hansen that I listed above and identify which parts were included in the 1938 and 1939 sets.
I finally had to stop researching because I was having an almost irresitable urge to go to eBay and start bidding on Erector Sets.
In any case, nice find on the Erector. I hope this information helps you to find any missing pieces.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Here is an interesting one, a Nation Wide Lines boxed set, which features many of the same components as the Skylark set of 1931.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
I have also seen one other odd color tank car, I do not recall the details, but think it was green tank on blue frame, that had evidence of the trucks being replaced with 1938 trucks and couplers.
As for the unusual cream box car in my collection, it is the only one I have ever observed and when I told a friend, who only collects pre-war gilbert items, he was astounded by the car.
I have had it for about a year and it came from the original owner's family out of a local estate along with several other 1938 freights (including the green tank on green frame car in my collection) that were virtually unusued and in their original boxes, a boxed 1937 hudson streamline passenger set (also in my collection) and a boxed Flying Colonel set (that is in a friend's collection).
The freights out of this sale appeared to be separate sale items, as opposed to being from a set, as one car had a home-made wire adapter to couple to the 1937 Hudson tender.
vintage flyer,
I think it would be safe to call them Gilbert transition cars. The cars themselves are obviously Chicago era designed. I think that the type XII trucks are also Chicago era design, but the design of the Type X "curley cue" sheet metal coupler is attributed to Gilbert.
Its interesting to see that Gilbert went through the time, effort and expense to re-truck some of the remaining Chicago stock and then go on to replace the couplers. Your observations of these cars made me curious about other cars from that era. I checked the cars in my collection that have the Type X sheet metal couplers and discoverd that my 3212 Bordens Milk car also has the impression from an earlier tab and slot coupler in the underside of the floor. I couldn't check the method of attaching the car body to the truck because it is hidden by the body of the car itself. I also observed something interesting about my 3207 sand cars. The medium green sand car also has the coupler impression and the truck is held on with a very large headed rivet. I suppose that it could have been done at home by a previous owner. The apple green sand car does not have the coupler impression and the trucks are fastened to the body with the smaller sized rivet.
I only have one example of each of these cars, so I would appreciate hearing from others who might have these re-trucked cars.
So, we have multiple examples of this retro-fitting by Gilbert of the (a) medium green 3210 tank car, the (b) orange 3216 lumber car and the (c) seperate sale 3208 Box car. (Is there more than the one example of the Box car in NWL's collection?)
We also have one example of the 3212 Bordens Milk car and one example of the 3207 medium green sand car.
Thanks for your observations. The hunt goes on.
So, is it safe to call these cars; medium green tank, orange flat, and NWL's box car, "Gilbert transition cars" ? :)
vintageflyer,
I checked my green on green tank car and it does indeed have the small washers under the head of the rivet fastening the truck to the frame. Here are some photos. They aren't the best, but I think you can see the washer.
The following photo shows that there was a tab and slot coupler fastened to the body with a rivet. You can just see the impression around the hole.
I think you have plenty of evidence to support the theory that Flyer replaced trucks and couplers on existing stock green on green tank cars. I checked the silver on green tank car and it does not have the washer or any evidence that it had a different coupler
I took a look at my example of the orange lumber car and it shows that it had a different coupler before being retro-fitted with the "curly cue" type X sheet metal coupler. There are no washers under the head of the rivet holding the trucks on, but the truck/rivet are a bit loose in the hole.
I am curious if your all green tank has the small washers that I mentioned in an earlier post. Do you see what looks like the '37 tab & slot coupler rivet was removed? Also, I would like to know if your silver/green car has them. I am thinking that the washers were added to strengthen the floors after the '37 style truck rivets were removed during the Gilbert change over mentioned by NWL.
Vintage Flyer,
Thanks for posting the photos of the variations that you have identified. I like that orange tank car. It would be a great car to have in a collection.
Just to follow up...
I have a green on green tank car from 1938 too.
Here is the more familiar silver on green tank car from 1938.
And here are the two variations from 1938. BTW, I don't think the green on green variation from 1938 is documented in the Greenberg Guide.
Nationwidelines Here is a very unusual boxed item. Box 1127 - this number is only listed in the 1925 Dealer's Price List and is listed as a "Car Assortment". There are actually 3 listings under Car Assortments, item 1125, 1126, and 1127. All of the Car Assortments are comprised of 6 differing cars, packed in one box. The lower the number, the lower the priced item. Car Assortment 1127 is listed as comprising (1105-1106-(2)-1115-1116-1117) and priced at $4.20. These boxes are somewhat rare to find and note below the 1127 number is a faint rubberstamp indicating "1/2 Dozen". I know that Lionel sold similar items, but Flyer appears to have listed these items only in 1925. I did note that the price lists from c. 1923-1924 indicate that 6 similarly priced cars could be packaged together in one box, but there is no number listed for such items. Anyway, here is a picture of the contents. NWL
Here is a very unusual boxed item.
Box 1127 - this number is only listed in the 1925 Dealer's Price List and is listed as a "Car Assortment".
There are actually 3 listings under Car Assortments, item 1125, 1126, and 1127. All of the Car Assortments are comprised of 6 differing cars, packed in one box. The lower the number, the lower the priced item.
Car Assortment 1127 is listed as comprising (1105-1106-(2)-1115-1116-1117) and priced at $4.20.
These boxes are somewhat rare to find and note below the 1127 number is a faint rubberstamp indicating "1/2 Dozen".
strainst
NWL,
Thanks for your input. I saw the Orange tank only in photos on EBay. It's a shame that I could not look at it in person.
The green '38 tanks that I have all have the same color trim as the photo that you posted. Finally, a constant in the prewar flyer world.
The '38 boxcar is great. I'll need to look a little closer for those.
You know when I started collecting the nine inch cars, I had bought a '39 #447 Hudson with freights. So I thought that I would find the rest of the '39 freight cars to make a nice display, and well you can figure out the rest.
Always something interesting waiting to come along.
Prewar Flyer
The photo of the orange tank car is very interesting. I have never seen it before and have never heard of an orange tank car. It is possible that it could be an early variation, as it is on a black frame, or it could be an older repaint, as it has wear.
The orange 3207 gondola is from 1931, based on original sets that I have seen with it and also with the 6.5 inch orange variation.
As for the 6 inch cars with link couplers, my experience is that the 6 inch cars never came from the factory with link couplers, so I am guessing that it has to be someone who did a truck coversion.
I once owned a set of the rare 6 inch blue passenger cars from 1939 that had been converted to link couplers. The ends of the frame were cut off in order for the link couplers to corner.
The 6 inch cars, that are original, feature the earlier style (pre-1938) couplers in 1938 and in 1939 they feature the 1938 knuckle style coupler.
When Gilbert took over American Flyer they did re-truck some of the earlier cars and in particular I know that the orange log car was one of the cars that was re-trucked.
I am not positive on the green tank cars, but I know that the green on green 1938 trucked tank car is a correct car. It is harder to find than the more typical light green frame and silver tank.
I personally have a very unusual box car that was sold as a separate sale item and is an earlier color car that has been factory re-trucked.
Hi again folks,
I would like input and opinion on these cars from my collection.
Please note.
1) The hole where the earlier type VII style coupler has been removed, especially on the flat car through the floor decal.
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/100_3032_zps849ac3fa.jpg.html?sort=3&o=21
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/100_3035_zps30beb9f2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=19
2) The trucks and type X couplers to me indicate the cars to be of 1938 vintage, but the colors seem to indicate earlier years. The truck rivets on all cars have thin tin plated washers under the rivet crimp on the top side of the floors.
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/100_3033_zps9127b6a1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=20
I wonder if they were re-trucked at the factory when Mr. Gilbert took control. Or maybe changed over with factory kits by repair stations or private owners. The parts are identical on all four cars. All three tank cars are identical and have come from different sources.
Does anyone have a factory retruck kit in their collection?
Are the thin washers included in the kit with the rivets?
Anyone have similar cars in their collection?
Let's hear it.
Hello folks,
Here's more Prewar Flyer variations for your examination. I borrowed these photos from Ebay.
First car is I believe, to be an early variation of the 3219 Dump car.
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3219DumpEarly_zps4303c8fa.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3219Dump3_zps99c489cd.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3219Dump4_zps08e37c4c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7
Sorry for the small pics, as I goofed up on the transfer process. I have never found a dump car with this early frame variation. Note the caboose floor with the patent decal.
Next, some tank car variations from the first series enameled cars of 1928-29
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3210tankearly1a_zpsdd4be5b6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3210tankearly1d_zpsfe9c463e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3210tankfirst3_zps910ad22b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3210tankfirst3a_zps38e7243e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8
The blue variation has been posted earlier, I believe by Northwoods.
How about some gondolas?
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3207GondOrange_zps716b80fc.jpg.html?sort=3&o=14
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3207GondOrange2_zps64e50c1a.jpg.html?sort=3&o=13
This light green version seems to match the roof color on some boxcars.
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/3207GondLtGreen_zps75105120.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12
This "shop worn" rubber stamped version is from my personal collection.
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/Shopworngondola_zps6fc95178.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4
Has anyone found these? A gray whistler loco (like a 401), decaled. Probably 1938? era. Not difficult to make one. Just swap motors. (I made one for myself to try it). I had the extra parts.
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/6inchlinkcab_zpsec2467a7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/tstkmorsey/media/6inchlinkcab-2_zpsfc0e1b81.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
A late SIX inch caboose with link couplers. Has anyone found a set like this? I saw a group of three cars with links years ago but did not buy them. I know the factory sold change-over kits.
How about a red framed 3/16-O log car. The bottom shot tells me that this was intended to be a crane (note the hole in the floor center).
I am anxious to see responses. What a great forum!
I had the following come through the private message system from a newer member of the forum and I thought I would post it here.
1938 Zephyer?
Hi zingerb51,
to the thread
Its nice to hear from you. I'm not sure if you intended to send this to me privately or if your intention was to post it to the main thread. It came to me as a private message.
The set you have was cataloged in 1936 as set 1760-RW. It has the longer 9914 power car, 9911 baggage (with the whistle built into it), 2 X 9913 coaches and the 9912 observation. The whistle requires the specially designed 4 rail track to operate. The track has 40" diameter curves.
The same configuration of cars was available in 1937 and 1938, but the whistle in the baggage/combination car was dropped after 1936. Its great that you could find a set similar to the one you had when you were a child.
If you would like to post this same question to the main thread I will answer it there too, for everyone to read. Is there any chance that you can take some photos of the set and post them?
Nationwidelines Northwoods, Your Ambassador cars would be correct with either a 3117 or a 3187. Due to the black trucks and brass air tanks on the Ambassador cars, my guess is that they date between 1928 and 1931. They may be a bit earlier production (1928ish) due to the darker red roofs, which I know is a common characteristic of the earlier production cars. I believe the earilest set of these cars came with an engine that was a darker red that matched the color of the roofs. NWL
Your Ambassador cars would be correct with either a 3117 or a 3187. Due to the black trucks and brass air tanks on the Ambassador cars, my guess is that they date between 1928 and 1931. They may be a bit earlier production (1928ish) due to the darker red roofs, which I know is a common characteristic of the earlier production cars. I believe the earilest set of these cars came with an engine that was a darker red that matched the color of the roofs.
NationWideLines
Thanks for the help identifying the engine and car combination. I think that I can safely say that I have set No. 1348 "The Ambassador" from 1928-1929.
My 3117 is a darker red and it matches the roofs of the Ambassador cars.
All of the brass tags on the cars are correct and as you pointed out the brass tanks and black trucks are from the earler production.
Now all I have to do is find a 3198 steam engine in one of its variations to head up the "American Flyer Lines" plated cars and I will have a Smokey Mountain Set.
Northwoods Flyer The boxed car assortment is a real find. I didn’t know that Flyer ever offered something like that. It would be interesting to document what came in each of the assortments. I wonder why Flyer didn’t continue to offer the assortments. Lionel certainly found it lucrative enough to continue the practice.
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