Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods Flyer

PS  NationWideLines,

Its interesting to see the two different shades of blue on your car.  However I had no idea that Flyer produced one truck freight cars.        Great find.        

 

 

Northwoods,

That is a baggage car and I am assuming it goes with an articulated streamline set designed to run on a single truck.  Just kidding.  I photographed it how it arrived. 

The engine that it came with is even more interesting.  It is a dark green 1217 engine, c. 1920.  Note the color of the cab in the photograph is almost black.  The difference is more noticable in person, but it is a very dark color. 

 

 

What really makes this engine interesting is that the underside of the cab is unpainted raw metal.  I have never observed that in a Flyer engine before.

 

Note there is some paint from the outside that has leaked through any holes in the cab, from when it was initially painted, but that is all.

 

 

I know that this engine is from the earliest production of these boxcab engines, because the motor has only a single power pick up that is at the end of a long tab, which is similar to the early c. 1918/1919 electric steam engines that I have.  I have only seen this type of pick up on one other boxcab in my collection and that one came with paperwork that was date coded to 1920.

 

This is the first 1217 motor that I have acquired for my collection and I find some of its characteristics to be very interesting.  First of all, it has a body mounted headlight.  The description in the Greenberg's guide was unclear to this characteristic, as there was no mention of a headlight.  Where the descrtiption of the 1201 specifically mentions no headlight and the description of the 1218 specifically mentions having a headlight. 

 

The color on this engine matches another very unusual engine in my collection and that is a 1218 engine that is factory overpainted and re-stamped with identification.

 

The above engine is extremely unusual in that the factory overpaint covers very unusual decal lettering as well as all trim (inclusive of the broken off bell).  Although it can not be seen in the photograph above, there are small square/rectangle areas where the decals are, that show as raised areas in the overpaint.  I have always wondered about the above engine as the only engines I have every seen with the decals showing are 1201 engines, which do not have in body headlights, yet the above 1218 engine has a headlight.  So possibly the above engine was originally a 1217 with factory decal lettering?  This could make sense as the only 1201 engines I have seen with decals have been black painted versions.

 

I have always wondered about the above engine because of its dark green paint (with the overpaint also covering dark green paint), which is unusual for a 1218 of this era.  Until I found this 1217, the only other dark green engines I was aware of from this early production were 1201 engines.  However, since they did not have body mounted headlights, they in my opinion were not candidates to be the overpainted engine.   

 

For reference, the below picture shows a 1201 engine with decals.

 

 

The engines with the decals are very rare and unusual. I think I have seen only 3 or 4 of them over the years, not including the odd overpainted engine. 

 

The best guess on the overpainted engine is that it was sent back to the factory at some point in its life for refurbishment and it was repainted and restamped at that point.  The only other thought is that it was incorrectly decaled at the factory and then repainted with rubberstamping being applied.  I really do not know and those are the only two theories that make sense.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Jason,

I wouldn't worry too much about breaking up the set.  The red cars with the type X truck are fairly easy to find. In fact the set that I have of those cars and engine are actually assembled from two different purchases.  For all you know the vendor may have actually purchased them from seperate sources.

Here are some photos of the set that mersenne6 posted from the 1938 catalog.

I think I have the sets from 1937 with your 1688 engine, but I don't think I have taken any photos of them yet.  I'll have to try to get to that in the next few days.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

PS  NationWideLines,

Its interesting to see the two different shades of blue on your car.  However I had no idea that Flyer produced one truck freight cars.        Great find.        

[mersenne6]

No, there are no 1937 sets with that combination.  There is a 1938 set that has those cars and the locomotive but the tender is the then new diecast version.  The set is #7 in the catalog cut below,

 

 

 

[rack776]

Thanks for posting the 1937 catalog photo.

Boy do I feel bad, and stupid now, I think I might have helped break up a set like the one on top of the catalog page.  I wish I had known more about prewar flyer before I bought my "train set"

When I bought my 1688 it was from a train show dealer who had mostly postwar lionel, there was a set of 3 red passenger cars on the table with the same style trucks shown in the catalog photo you posted,  I figured the trucks did not match the tender and they were from an earlier set.  The seller at the show had each item priced seperately.

I  ended up buying the 1688 and 4 wide low light teal blue and silver cars with the grey trucks with brass trim thinking they were the correct match to my 1688 engine.    

Are there any sets in 1937 that used the wide low blue and silver cars with the tab and slot couplers?

I also bought the cars and boxes for a double header set (he had no engines ) the dealer had no other prewar flyer except the 3 red cars that I had passed on.  It's Live and learn I guess I can claim I have "separate sale" 1937 trainset.

I actually like the blue and silver much better than the red cars anyway and they look really good together, with the 1688 engine.  I am happy to have them.

-Jason

[Nationwidelines]

Here is a very interesting example of a c. 1920 car.  Note the difference in lithograph colors between the two sides.

 

 

 

 

Not sure how this one made it out of the factory, maybe a color blind assembler.

 

NWL

[mersenne6]

  According to the Greenberg guide the engine you have illustrated is #1688 introduced in 1937 - brass trim below running boards painted black, larger drive wheels - same as on the Hiawatha - and sliding pickups.  The catalog cut  from 1937 is below:

[rack776]

Wow! This is a great thread!

 Hi, my name is Jason and I am new to collecting prewar American Flyer I have a few questions about a prewar AF engine I have recently found.
(Uh...that kind of sounds like a 12 step counseling or self help class introduction right?...not to far off with train collecting I guess!)
 
 I figured first I'd say Hi and give a quick back story to how I ended up in this part of the hobby for now and get it out of the way.
I'll post my engine photos and questions in another post soon.

 I started out getting my Fathers 1947 Lionel set to run again and then on to restoring & collecting postwar Lionel from the late 1940s to the mid 1950s.
Boy oh boy did I get spoiled with tons of free Lionel information, repair manuals, used parts, reproduction parts....

 The AF bug has started at an antiques mall with an a "cheap parts engine" to fix up. A #423 from about 1939
I had figured American Flyer is as popular as Lionel and I could get parts for it, well not so much as I have quickly found out.
It has a good boiler shell and axel bushings and some brass & copper trim and not much else. I really still want to try and save it some day.

 
 While looking at a train show for another "junk spare parts engine" to fix my "junk" #423 I found an entire prewar AF "train set" or so I thought.....

This is how it happens, you start with one orphan AF item and find some other mismatched items and before you know it you have 2 or 3 "incomplete" sets that you are looking for parts for to try and save from the junk box.

The bug hit me so bad I recently learned of Model Engineering Works reproduction parts...and then found out about them closing in the same week, but I'm still here, I figure I can always buy a lathe or drill press and make my own missing parts if I have to. I'm pretty mechanically inclined.

I have read & researched this entire CTT thread a few times to try figure out what mixed up "set" I have bought. I hope to take some photos and
post my questions some time over the weekend. 

My engine in question has shown up listed as a 3315, 1688, and #10 erector set locomotive, it has large drive wheels and the moveable field reverse unit, best I can figure is it is from 1935-1937.

Can anyone share a catalog photo of what kind of set it would have been part of?
I have a bunch of images from the 1938 10 1/2" erector set instructions I will post soon for now here are some old internet auction photo of an engine that is very close to mine.  I'll post photos of mine soon.

-Jason Rackawack

PS I could not get the photos on my Flickr account to embed in the posts so I will post them as a link that will go to back my photo site just click them for the full size images. If anyone has a fix for this let me know.

 

Here is the Erector Set Pages

[mersenne6]

 

 

Mr. Morris’s Many Moving Messages

  Morris & Company advertised themselves as packers and provisioners with branches in all principal cities. Their brand name was Morris Supreme Foods and their ads listed ham, bacon, butter, margarine, canned meats, eggs, cheese, and specialties.  An ad from The Ladies Home Journal for 1922 touts Supreme Bacon and Eggs and mentions “the Morris Supreme yellow and black label is always a safe guide.”  A roster list of railroad cars published in the 1920’s indicates Morris and Company had a fleet of refrigerator cars.

 

  So, courtesy of the internet and some searches I’ve been able to confirm everything about the American Flyer Morris refrigerator cars – brand name, items sold, the black, yellow, red, and white Morris label – everything except the look of the actual prototype cars.

 

  As I mentioned in a post back on page 6 Flyer made six different lithographed Morris refrigerator car sides which advertised 1) Supreme Canned Goods & Specialties, 2) Supreme Large Fancy Eggs, 3) Supreme Hams & Bacon, 4) Supreme Marigold Oleomargarine, 5) Supreme Fancy Creamery Butter, and 6) Supreme Full Cream Cheese.  Flyer delivered punched and formed sides in containers to the assembly line where workers pulled out random sides and assembled them into car bodies.  As a result you can have a car with a different ad on each side or a car with the same ad on both sides.  As I also mentioned in the previous post, if you were lucky you could collect the six sides in as few as three cars. 

 

  I’ve been hunting for all six sides for some time and I finally found a car with the 6^th side (note: the update of the post on page 6 includes the 6th side as well as the Nation Wide reefer - Jul 2021).  I didn’t do it in three cars but, as you can see from the side A and side B pictures below,I did manage to do it in 4 (I have one car with the same ad on both sides – Oleomargarine, and I have 2 with Cream Cheese on the opposite sides). 

 

A Side

 

 

B Side

 

 

  The cars themselves can be found with Type III and Type V frames, five panel, six panel, and solid painted doors and black, orange, and green roofs – the last two roof colors being ribbed.

 

   The Side A and Side B pictures of the Atlas reefers in the pictures below demonstrates that asymmetrical advertising on refrigerator car sides was prototypically correct. 

 

Side A

 

 

 

 

Side B

 

 

 

  If Flyer’s lithography is a reasonable representation of the Morris cars then what we have is two for the price of one – an approximation of a real car and the only toy train representation of which I’m aware that highlights the practice of asymmetrical advertising.  Also, if the Flyer cars are representations of the actual Morris cars it would suggest the real cars had more of the look of the Atlas Crisco car with what would amount to a simple change in product description or type between Side A and Side B as opposed to the Cudahy reefer with completely different looking sides.

 

...as for the title of this post – Well, Morris put many messages about their products on the sides of refrigerator cars and the cars did move around the country …so the messages were obviously moving .

[Northwoods Flyer]

Great postings folks.  Thanks for sharing your photos and your knowledge. 

I did a presentation on Pre War American Flyer Trains back in November of 2014 for the Marathon County Historical Society.  

The presentation was recorded and I just discovered that there are two very brief videos of two of my sets running on their Facebook page.   This is a link to the page:  https://www.facebook.com/MarathonCountyHistory  I hope it works

Someday I am going to learn how to post  my own videos  - first I need a better camera 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

Mersenne6,

I have actually owned (but since sold) both a red litho and a green litho car similar to the ones you have.  These cars apparently date to approximately 1914, as that is when the type III frame was supposedly introduced (as it was first shown in the 1914 catalog on the 102 and 1107/1108 cars).  I know that all of the 102 cars have the type 3 frame and essentially feature that same 4 window body style as the Chicago 4 window cars. 

I have also seen the type III frame on the early tank car with wooden tank, which is also known to come on a type II frame.

NWL

[mersenne6]

A tale of two coaches

   A few years ago I purchased an unboxed but like new AF set from the 1910-1914 period.  It looked much like the contents of the M0 set shown in the 1914 catalog except that it had a 4 window Chicago car.  For want of an actual set name I settled on calling it an M0 set.  A few months later I was looking at the set on my shelf and I suddenly realized that the 4 window Chicago car had a Type III frame and not a Type II.

 

  None of the references I had indicated the 4 window Chicago car had ever been offered with a Type III frame.  A close examination of the car did not suggest any tampering and the condition was/is such that it seemed very unlikely that someone would have taken apart what would have had to have been two like new cars (a Chicago 4 window and an AF#102) and put them back together with different frames.  The Greenberg reference indicated the Type III frame was introduced in 1914 but that it might have appeared somewhat earlier.

 Since I couldn't find any reference to this combination of coach body and frame I wasn't sure if I had a real variation or not and there the matter rested for a few years.  About 2 weeks ago the car below showed up on E-bay and I was able to purchase it.

  As you can see, it is the same build.  Thus it would seem that once again we have an example of Flyer using up old inventory.  In this case it would appear Flyer ran out of Type II frames before they ran out of 4 window Chicago coach bodies and the end result is another interesting Flyer variation.

[Nationwidelines]

Major

That tower is a beautiful fine!  I know about what you paid for a tower in that condition with box.  I have seen many at York in much poorer condition go for way too much money!  Thanks for sharing!

 

 

Thanks, I have passed on many of these over the years because I thought their prices were too high.  This one came my way at a great price, which is why I finally bought an original.

[Major]

That tower is a beautiful fine!  I know about what you paid for a tower in that condition with box.  I have seen many at York in much poorer condition go for way too much money!  Thanks for sharing!

[Nationwidelines]

108 Switch Tower

 

I do not believe that photos of this item have been posted here before.  Here is a 108 Switch Tower, with original box.  Wish I could have gotten it for the original price of $2.00

I am told that this version is in the late color scheme.  The early color scheme has a maroon/red colored base and brown lower building.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The box for this item is somewhat unique for Flyer items, as it has a large herald printed on each side of the box, with the item number printed in the herald. 

 

Additionally, it is a corrugated box, which is relatively uncommon for Chicago era items.  The only items I am aware of that came with corrugated boxes in the Chicago era are Standard Gauge tunnels and the wooden trestle bridges. 

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

Cracker Jack!

These two items are reported to be Cracker Jack prizes c. 1920.  All I can say is these items come up very rarely on ebay and when they do they are always referred to as Cracker Jack prizes.  They are copies of the 1201/1218 style engines that were first introduced in 1920 and were sold in various forms/numbers through the early 1930s.  They have "American" and "Flyer" cast into the lower portions of the body, just above the frame.  These two examples are a purplish and yellow/gold color variations.  I am not sure what color variations may exist.  The last photo provides a reference to their size.

 

 

 

 

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

We've been pretty busy here of late.  Its great to see all of the posts.

strains,

Thanks for the additional information and the photos of your Erector "No. 10 1/2 Electric Train Set"  Good Luck in your hunt for an appropriate engine.  Thanks too for the photos of the blue and maroon versions of the 1218.  I've read about them and seen the entries in the Greenberg Guide but I've never seen a photo of either.

Mersenne6,

Thanks for the photos of the #7 clockwork sets.  My knowledge of that area of Flyer production needs improvement.  I'm always learning something new here on the thread.

NationWideLines,

You have made another interesting find with that #3199 tender.  I've checked through my collection and I don't have any 3199s with black trucks.  I'll be keeping my eyes open for one now though.

 

I was going through my boxes and came across the missing example of the Champion passenger cars.  I'll reprise the examples here.

1122  -  4 wheel  (Blue Streak)

1122  -  8 wheel  (Blue Streak)

1123  - 4 wheel  (This is the one missing in the last entry on these)

1123  -  8 wheel

1223  -  4 wheel

1223  -  8 wheel

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

3199 Tenders and Truck Colors

So I have a question for others out there, as well as my own thoughts on this issue.  My question is, has anyone ever seen black trucks on a 3199 Tender?

I ask this because the 3199 tender was introduced in 1930 at a time when American Flyer was switching from black painted trucks to gray painted trucks.  I have 2 very original 1930 sets that have 3199 tenders with gray painted trucks, but the rest of the set has black painted trucks.  The first of my 1930 sets is this Man-O-War set with Ambassador type cars.   

Here is a close-up of the tender with this set.  First the side photo

Next a photo of the bottom.

 

Note there is no rubber-stamped number on the bottom and there are rivets on the bottom that hold extra weights in place on the inside. 

My other 1930 set is the Steel Mogul set and it has an identical tender, with freight cars that have black trucks.

This next tender is from an unusual 1931 New Steel Mogul set that featured an unusual 3300 casting that is marked 3190.  This 1931 set features gray painted trucks on all cars.  Again, side and bottom pictures

Note that this tender has a rubber-stamped number on the bottom and the tender draw bar has an extra length added to it (I believe to accomodate the unusual 3300 casting that it came with).

Anyway, I can only theorize that the gray painted trucks were in fact introduced in 1930 and the sets from that year were using up leftover trucks/cars that had black painted trucks.  However, this is only a guess.

 

This switching of truck colors also may explain freight cars that I have seen with the eariler black frames and gray trucks, which I had originally assumed to be 1930 production due to their truck style, as being later 1930 production that was using up earlier painted frames.

 

One last mystery to leave you with, a 3199 with black painted trucks and a rubber stamped number on the bottom.

 

Note that this tender is labeled for Nation Wide Lines.  Of the 3 NWL 3199 tenders I have, two of them feature gray painted trucks and only this one came with black painted trucks.

This one also came with a most unusual engine configuration.  The other two NWL tenders came with passenger cars with golden state plates on them.  One with a 3190 engine and the other without an engine, which is now mated to a 3300 engine that came with NWL plates on it. 

This tender came with a 3195 type engine (with 3185 plates on it as the NWL engines are found that way) and a set of 6.5 inch NWL lithographed freight cars. 

 

So, I ask for feedback from my fellow collectors as to if anyone has seen a 3199 tender with black trucks? 

NWL

 

 

 

[mersenne6]

#7 Wind up Boxcab Electric

 

  The little engine was first shown in the American Flyer 1928 Advanced Trade Catalog.  It was listed as heading up two sets #722 and #723. Set #722 had two #517 Empire Express cars while set #723 had two slightly larger #515 series passenger cars. Both set descriptions indicated the cars were lithographed to match the lithography of the engine.  Schuweiler’s book on AF O gauge reports two locomotive color combinations: 1) Red sides, orange top and pilot, and green details in emerald and olive with emerald green “Empire Express” lettering. 2) Orange sides, green top, black pilot, and green and black details with black “Empire Express” lettering. 

The sets are listed in the 1929 and 1930 dealer price sheets (9 and 12 dollars a dozen respectively). In 1931 only set #722 was listed with the addition of two #516 series passenger cars. Neither the locomotive nor the set are listed in the 1932 dealer price sheet.

 

Flyer’s willingness to make special sets to order for customers is well known and this set would appear to be one of them. This set came with a variation of the second locomotive – the pilot is orange instead of black and the green of the cars is more turquoise than green. The set number is 824S and it contains 4 of the #517 Empire Express cars instead of 2.

 

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

It looks like I have the makings of some entries on Steeple Cabs here. 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

  

Happy 7th Anniversary Northwoods Flyer on this outstanding forum of American Flyer train information.  I have a couple of other 1218 Steeple Cab locomotives to add to your listing.  The first is the blue version which I think is the most beautiful version of the 1218 locomotive.  Unfortunately, mine is more silver than blue, but there is enough left of the blue to get the idea of what it once was.  I have included a photo of the underside which really shows the color of the blue paint.

Here is the underside:

The other addition is the maroon varsion:

Many more happy years!

 

Dennis (strainst)

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

I was able to get some additional information from Gary who posts on the prewarOgauge forum Yahoo group:

"The royal blue boxed, #10½, Electric Locomotive sets were indeed offered from 1938 - 1942, but the box itself remained unchanged though its entire short life span.  Locomotives over the 5-year run were...

1938 - #3315 (Type IX)
1939 - #420 (Type X) w/ copper trim
1940 - #420 (Type X) w/ nickel trim
1941/42 - 556, Royal Blue

My feeling is that the #420 with nickel trim is the hardest version to find.  None of the locomotives came with a tender.
The first year there was no transformer included, from 1939 on, a #5 - 50 watt transformer was packed with this set.
There are some very subtle variations in parts, so you may get some clues there.  If you have the original inner lid cardboard insert, the second year the words "No. 10½ Electric Train Set" were added in the upper left corner.  In 1940, the phrase "World's Champion" was also added.
In 1940, the parachute jump parts were added to the 10½ set; another way the later sets can be identified."

As you can see from the photo below, with the inclusion of "No. 10½ Electric Train Set" and the phrase "World's Champion" on the cardboard liner, the set I have is from 1940 or later.

So I guess I can make this set a 420 Type X Nickel Trim or a Royal Blue 556 erector set, of which I have neither in my collection.  Gary was also able to provide an inventory for the set so along with the illustrated guide you listed in your post, I can see what all is needed.

Dennis (strainst)

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Nice work folks.  You have done some excellent sleuthing here. I've certainly learned some things from your posts.  When I collect, I usually buy one or two pieces at a time; so sometimes I am unsure what piece goes with what.  These lower priced uncataloged cars have always been hard to place in a set.  Thanks for providing some great documentation.  NWL I would love to see your spreadsheet for the sets carried in other catalogs.

All I can offer is some photos of the individual cars.

1123   

Red 8 wheel car, red lettering on black background

1223 

Red 4 wheel car, black lettering on white background

1223 

Red 8 wheel car, black lettering on white background

1122

Blue 4 wheel car, black lettering on white background

1122

Blue 8 wheel car, black lettering on white background

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

mersenne6

My set has a transformer - boxed like the rest.  However, the set has no track and there isn't really any place in the box to put it - I wonder if there is any chance the "T" would stand for track?

 

 

Doesn't make sense that you would need a transformer without track?  I have seen a number of sets where there seemed to be no room for the track, but yet it was there.  As I said, I really have no idea what the T stands for. 

[mersenne6]

My set has a transformer - boxed like the rest.  However, the set has no track and there isn't really any place in the box to put it - I wonder if there is any chance the "T" would stand for track?

[Nationwidelines]

As for the T being included in the set number or not, I have seen various sets that are stamped with it and without it, as well as advertisements for various identical sets/set numbers that both have and do not have the T.  Not sure what the difference may be, but I do not believe it is a significant item.

I am wondering if maybe sets with the T included a transformer and sets without the T did not include a transformer.

 

NWL

[mersenne6]

Thank you Southern Colorado - the set 842T in the flyer you posted is the set in the picture.  It's interesting to note that the stamped set number on the box does not include the "T".

[Southern Colorado Marx Flyer]

Thanks NWL.  I really appreciate your help with identifying these cars.

You have much better information than I do to work with.  I did see these pages on the Internet, but was not they were the same sets.  I'm thinking they may be pages from a flyer you already have since the numbers match with what you originally wrote.

Thanks again for your help.

[mersenne6]

NWL, if you don't have the particulars of the set 842 in the celebration photo above let me know and I'll get you a list of the contents and the stamped ID numbers on the storage sleeves.

[Nationwidelines]

Craig,

I understand about the sets not being listed in the book you have.  I have a combination of paperwork items, which includes:

1) dealer price lists sent to the dealers by American Flyer, which sometimes have "specials" listed in them, which are not in the actual Flyer catalogs

2) numerous scanned copies of wholesale catalog pages

3) a spreadsheet containing sets listed in Butler Brothers catalogs from c. 1910 to 1940, which was compiled by a friend

 

From all of these sources, I have created a spreadsheet of my own that lists sets by number, with information about the contents, source, year, etc.

However, even with all of the above paperwork items, I know I am missing stuff, as Flyer did so many odd and unusual uncataloged sets/items for various retailers.

Therefore, I constantly search for information relating to Flyer advertising and paperwork.

 

NWL

[Southern Colorado Marx Flyer]

Yes NWL.  I did see where the lack of a trailing truck in these locos was because of a whistle.  An early 401 makes sense.  Thanks. 

From what I read, the sheet metal Hiawathas were most likely advertised in department store type catalogs which you evidently have.  No set numbers are listed in the book I have for the electric locomotives or sets.  Only the streamlined loco, tender, and coaches are illustrated.

This type of set (which I think is the one you have) is not listed in my book.

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Craig,

The black locomotives are an earlier version of the 401's.  The copper piping was used prior to nickel plated piping, so some of the early 401's have copper piping also.

As for the lack of the trailing truck on them, if they had the whistle in them, there was no room for a trailing truck. 

I am not sure there are different set numbers for Hiawatha sets with the rounded back or square backed engine, as Flyer was simply using the parts that they had.  As for my descriptions, they are based on catalog artwork.

 

NWL