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Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

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Posted by ElGaucho on Tuesday, June 9, 2015 11:34 AM
Great reference on this toy train I recently acquired! Do you have a more high resolution scan of this catalog page? It's a little hard to read it. Thanks!
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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Saturday, May 23, 2015 10:48 AM

Thanks for doing all of this research and posting it here NWL.  I have to admit that I have wondered about the folks who started the company that eventually became our beloved American Flyer company.  Now you have filled in the information gap.

I am continually amazed at the information that is available if you do the work to find it.  I wish we could get some folks to post  here that may have actual Pre War prototypes in their collections. 

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:12 AM

Nationwidelines
 
Otis B. Drinkwater

I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal"

 

Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com

 

" 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)"

 

I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found

 

I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street.

 

So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years. 

I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue.

O.

 

 

 

 

Time to update the above post, as I researched and found more information.

The earliest reference that I could find was in a Michigan Alumni reference from 1899.  It listed Jay Edmonds as either an 1895 or 1896 graduate, who worked for a metal company in Chicago for 2 years after graduation and forming a business with W. E. Metzel the prior year (1898).
 
Next reference was for Edmonds and Metzel inventing the perpetual bicycle pedal in 1899.
 
In the 1899-1900 Annual Report of the Factory Inspector, I found a listing for Edmonds, Metzel, and Cole MFG at 253-255 South Canal Street.  Indicates that the business was inspected March 4, 1900. 
 
The same report from 1900-1901 lists same company name and address.
 
I then found a reference in The Iron Age publication of May 23, 1901 that lists a name change to remove Cole.
 
The Iron Age of November 28, 1901 shows an advertisement for the bank they produced and lists an address of 778-784 West Lake Street.
 
The Inland Printer of November 1902 on Page 284 advertises a Multiplex Press Punch for punching holes in paper.  The advertisement indicates that the item is patented and lists the West Lake Street address again.
 
The Engineering Magazine, Volume 24 indicates that Mr. A. R. Sheppard is announced as Secretary and Treasurer of Edmonds Metzel.  Not sure of the exact date of this, but it appears to be sometime in the 1901-1903 era.
 
Modern Machinery from February 1904 indicates that Edmonds Metzel announced they were moving from Lake Street to 159 S. Jefferson Street. 
 
The move was again announced in The Metal Industry, Page 64 from April 1904, where it was announced the new address was 159 South Jefferson Street.
 
The American Machinist of January 28, 1904, Vol 27, page 14, advertises Edmonds Metzel MFG "We manufacture on contract all kinds of hardware and electrical specialties, dies, tools, stamping, and experimental work"  There was no address listed for the company in this address.
 
After that the trail goes a bit cold.  I could not specifically nail down when the company moved to the Wilcox Avenue/Street location.  It could be that the move was when Mr. Coleman took control of the company. 
 
NWL
 

 

A bit more about Edmonds Metzel.

After my latest posting, a friend asked me if I knew what happened to William E. Metzel.  He indicated that he knew of Jay Edmonds going on to a successful career in the industry after exiting Edmonds Metzel MFG.

I am not positive that this is the same William E. Metzel, but the facts seem to correlate.  In early 1907, a William E. Metzel is listed as one of the founders of the Indestructible Steel Wheel Corporation, which built a plant in Lebanon, Indiana.  He is listed as the Vice President.  I find listings for him being associated with the company as late as November 1908.

I then found a death notice for a William E. Metzel of 1438 Windsor Avenue in the Tuesday March 30, 1909 Chicago Tribune.  From what I could gather, as I was not reading the entire story without paying, William E. Metzel was stricken with heart failure at his residence at 1438 Winsor Avenue the prior Thursday and died on Sunday at the Kenilworth Sanitarium.  He was 35 years old and had been married to Mabel (Best) Metzel for 9 months.

In the "Mutual Interests" (seemingly an insurance publication) June 1909 edition I found a note for a death claim (insurance claim) for William E. Metzel, who was listed as a manufacturer from Chicago.  The claim amount was for $2,500.

So it would seem that the Mr. Metzel died shortly after his exit from Edmonds Metzel MFG.

 

NWL

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 6:23 AM

Otis B. Drinkwater

I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal"

 

Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com

 

" 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)"

 

I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found

 

I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street.

 

So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years. 

I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue.

O.

 

 

Time to update the above post, as I researched and found more information.

The earliest reference that I could find was in a Michigan Alumni reference from 1899.  It listed Jay Edmonds as either an 1895 or 1896 graduate, who worked for a metal company in Chicago for 2 years after graduation and forming a business with W. E. Metzel the prior year (1898).
 
Next reference was for Edmonds and Metzel inventing the perpetual bicycle pedal in 1899.
 
In the 1899-1900 Annual Report of the Factory Inspector, I found a listing for Edmonds, Metzel, and Cole MFG at 253-255 South Canal Street.  Indicates that the business was inspected March 4, 1900. 
 
The same report from 1900-1901 lists same company name and address.
 
I then found a reference in The Iron Age publication of May 23, 1901 that lists a name change to remove Cole.
 
The Iron Age of November 28, 1901 shows an advertisement for the bank they produced and lists an address of 778-784 West Lake Street.
 
The Inland Printer of November 1902 on Page 284 advertises a Multiplex Press Punch for punching holes in paper.  The advertisement indicates that the item is patented and lists the West Lake Street address again.
 
The Engineering Magazine, Volume 24 indicates that Mr. A. R. Sheppard is announced as Secretary and Treasurer of Edmonds Metzel.  Not sure of the exact date of this, but it appears to be sometime in the 1901-1903 era.
 
Modern Machinery from February 1904 indicates that Edmonds Metzel announced they were moving from Lake Street to 159 S. Jefferson Street. 
 
The move was again announced in The Metal Industry, Page 64 from April 1904, where it was announced the new address was 159 South Jefferson Street.
 
The American Machinist of January 28, 1904, Vol 27, page 14, advertises Edmonds Metzel MFG "We manufacture on contract all kinds of hardware and electrical specialties, dies, tools, stamping, and experimental work"  There was no address listed for the company in this address.
 
After that the trail goes a bit cold.  I could not specifically nail down when the company moved to the Wilcox Avenue/Street location.  It could be that the move was when Mr. Coleman took control of the company. 
 
NWL
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Posted by mersenne6 on Friday, April 17, 2015 7:17 PM

The handful of #97's that I've seen have all had unpunched windows.  The only problem I have with this statement is that the two stations which I assumed were #98's (no boxes were present) had punched windows and the large punched out space in the base for a light fixture like the one illustrated back on page 7.  It was for this reason that I asked you about the kind of light fixture that would fit that "footprint" and I've often wondered if Flyer sold #98's with a light and base to match the cutout.

  One other thing which I think Flyer tried to do as far as lighted and unlighted stations were concerned was roof color, at least for the 96/104 series and possibly the 97-107 series.  Far more often than not I've found the lighted stations in these series to have some shade of red or orange roof and the unlighted versions to have some shade of green/olive green.  This observation is not 100% but my count is skewed heavily in this direction.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Friday, April 17, 2015 8:41 AM

mersenne6

NWL - thanks for the update on the stations.  I had a first go at this back on page 7 of the thread.  I have a shot of the first of the series - basic no frills as well as some of the stations you have shown.  One thing I noted then and something I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on is the punched out " footprint" of what looks like a hole for a small porcelian light fixture from the day.  I've often wondered if this is supposed to be where the interior light for the stations with either no punched windows or punched windows with no interior light was supposed to reside.

 

Mersenne6,

I have seen the stations with the large hole punched in the base and my guess is that it was for the owner to add a light.  If it was not for the owner to add a light, then it must have been for a lighting system that Flyer opted not to go with. 

The one station I have with the large hole in the base, has punched out windows with inserts in them.  Although it has no interior lights, it has two exterior lights, which I think may have been added at some point, as although they are Flyer lights, the hole for the wiring through the building walls is somewhat crude and does not match my other stations of this series.

A question for you on the un-punched window variations, do you think that all of the 97 stations came with un-punched windows?  I ask, because I have not seen many of these stations with un-punched windows.

 

NWL

 

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Posted by mersenne6 on Friday, April 17, 2015 8:02 AM

NWL - thanks for the update on the stations.  I had a first go at this back on page 7 of the thread.  I have a shot of the first of the series - basic no frills as well as some of the stations you have shown.  One thing I noted then and something I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on is the punched out " footprint" of what looks like a hole for a small porcelian light fixture from the day.  I've often wondered if this is supposed to be where the interior light for the stations with either no punched windows or punched windows with no interior light was supposed to reside.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, April 16, 2015 1:12 PM

97, 98, 99, 105, and 107 Station Variations

I am describing the 5 station variations together because they used the same building lithography, with the variations simply different lighting systems and or differing years of productions.

The 97, 98, and 99 Stations first appeared in the 1924 catalog.  The catalog shows the same picture for the 97 and 98 stations (but does not state which station is shown) and differentiates the two stations by describing the 98 station as having isinglass windows and interior light.  The 99 Station is shown separately and features the same characteristics as the 98 station, with the addition of two exterior lights at the corners.

In the 1925 catalog, only the 99 station is shown and the 97 and 98 stations are described as same as 99, but without... the appropriate features that differentiate the 3 stations.

In 1927, the station is only offered as the 105, which is described simply as having two exterior lights.  There is no mention of isinglass windows.

In 1928, the station is offered as the 107 Terminal Station, which features a newly designed roof with dormer that features a large brass plate with the station name on it.  The station is described as having two exterior lights, orange roof, green dormer and chimney, and red base.

Between 1929 and 1932 the 107 station is described as having 2 exterior lights and 1 interior light, frosted window transparencies, and orange roof.

The station is last shown in the 1932 catalog.

I cannot identify any 97, 98, or 99 stations in my collection to show photos of, but will offer the following variations.

First I will start with a 107 Terminal Station, as described by the catalog as having orange roof.  Looks like my flash caused the name plate to be unreadale.  It reads Terminal Station.

 

The next variation is not described in the catalogs, but it has all of the same features, except a red roof.  I have seen several of these red roof 107 stations to know that it is a factory produced variation.  I am guessing early production.

 
 
The next variation is a little bit more unusual, in that it has the earlier gray base, but the later roof, with the roof having a Central Station plate, as opposed to the Terminal Station plate.  All I can say, is this is as found and I have seen similar roofs with the Central Station plates, instead of the Terminal Station plates. 
 
 
I saved the most interesting variation (at least in my opinion) until last.  I believe this to be a 105 Station.  It came in an original box that had an unreadable Flyer label on it, but a legible Butler Brothers number.  I am having a friend check his BB library to see what number station it is.  One other tip that leads me to believe this is a 105 Station, is the Greenberg's guide (which is not always perfect) lists a 105 version B as having the feature of un-punched windows.  The station has the 2 exterior lights, which is a feature of the 105 Station.  It looks like this particular station had an interior light at one time, which does not make sense as it has only a single door opening in the building, but there is a mark in the paint, where the light holder would be and the farenstock clip that would attach to the light holder is loose at the bottom.  Anyway, here it is
 
 
 
 
 
The un-punched windows are very neat, as the upper portion of the window to the left of the center door is marked "Ticket Office" and when the windows are punched out, this is missing.  Another feature I noted when photographing these, is that on the one with the unpunched windows, the one with the Central Station plate, and the one with the red roof, only the front door is punched out.  The rear doors on these variations are not punched out. 
 
As for the variation with the un-punched windows, all I can say is that one does not see them very often and it took me quite a while to find a nice one to add to my collection.
 
NWL
 
 
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Posted by Nationwidelines on Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:20 PM

Cabooses (or Cabeese?)

American Flyer at times, made some interesting pre-war cabooses.  Their first freight cars, which were 5 1/2 inches long, appeared in the 1910 catalog, with no caboose shown, but with a 4 window Chicago car.  I believe in 1914 the Flyer catalog showed German made freight cars in their line, and then in 1916 the first American Flyer branded caboose, the Illinois Central 1111 caboose. 

The 1916 cabooses are noteworthy for one feature, the cupola's have punched out windows.  The early cupolas are also centered on the roof, where some of the later 1111 cabooses have off-centered cupolas.

In 1917 American Flyer made an unusual caboose, the version that uses a Baltimore & Ohio lithographed boxcar body, with unpunched doors. 

These cabooses are difficult to find today.

It has been theorized that this caboose was made because American Flyer could not get items from Germany during WW-I.  However, for that to be true, then the above 1111 caboose from 1916 would have had to have been made in Germany. 

I honestly cannot provide an answer to the question raised by the 1917 caboose.  Possibly the 1916 freight cars were made in Germany and that accounts for why the cupola windows from 1917 and on (on the 1111 cabooses) were not punched out.

American Flyer's 1919 catalog shows their new line of 6 1/2 inch freight cars, and the first caboose is also an odd one, using their 6 1/2 inch boxcar body lithographed for a caboose.  This car, like the 1917 B&O caboose, has no vestibules/platforms at the ends of the car.

This caboose in addition to having no vestibules/platforms at the ends of the car, features a wider body than the later 1114/1117 cars, which makes the roofs incompatible between the two styles of cars.  These cabooses are difficult to find today.

In 1925 American Flyer introduced its 9.5 inch line of freight cars.  These longer freight cars, which were lithographed from 1925-1927, did not originally have a matching length caboose.  In 1928, as American Flyer was switching from lithographed cars to enamel painted cars, they produced a 9.5 inch caboose to go with their larger freight cars.  The first caboose in this line, shown in the 1928 catalog, features a very intricate hand rail system.  Although these cabooses do exist, much like the 5 window standard gauge caboose, it seems that the design looked better on paper than in the production line.  Therefore, there are very few of these cabooses in existence. 

The one pictured below, is an original that has been redecorated by a previous owner.  It is in the process of being restored.

 
 
So, there they are, some unusual American Flyer cabooses.
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Posted by mersenne6 on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 8:52 PM

toy4sonny,  your point is well taken. Indeed it was another reason I thought I had some kind of swap out of frames and bodies of the 4 window Chicago and the #102.  Both the first car and the second show small skid marks, you don't need a magnifier to see them, and they are not symmetric from car-to-car as one might expect from something assembled by a machine which had some kind of error in set up. The other thing that is also obvious is that the assembly is a "first-time-through" that is, the tabs do not exhibit the fracture lines in the litho one gets from disassembly and re-bending of tabs.

  The marks do suggest manual assembly and between you, me and NWL the car count also suggests an organized assembly process as opposed to someone just tinkering in a basement. So the question becomes one of who did the final assembly - the factory or some other firm who purchased leftover inventory for whatever reason.  Either way it had to be to their economic advantage to do so.

 If it was the factory using up old inventory it could suggest some kind of an issue with respect to machine assembly. For example the quantity could have been such that making adjustments to the line (set up, scheduling, etc.) cost more than simple manual assembly. The idea of factory manual assembly may seem unreasonable but I have two production error #104 stations which exhibit this level of factory manual assembly (and I've seen others like them for sale) so manual as opposed to machine assembly at the factory is something that was done from time to time.

   As for a third party, if the cars were assembled by someone else then they would have had to have purchased the bodies and the type III frames, assembled the cars and, if my set is an example, offered them for sale in Flyer sets.  These cars are a puzzle and at this late date I would say the odds of resolving the who, what, when, where, and why of their existence are slim indeed.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Monday, April 6, 2015 7:11 PM

toy4sonny

I collect AF chicago cars. I have dozens of boxes sets plus over 20 random cars pulled by various Type 1 clockwork engines (closed window-open 3 & 4 & 5 ). I only have one 4 window with a type III frame. And whenI put on magnifiers I can see the tabs have been very very carefully bent (probably with soft wooden angled small doll rod's). A good job but with 7X power one can see slight marks on my one car plus the dead "give away" of a little paint missing on tab edges ( ever so slight but always there ). Using old inventory-Maybe. Nothing is impossibe..

 

The type III frames are thought to be introduced in 1914, as the 1914 catalog first shows these frames.  That being said, the 1914 catalog shows a number of diffferent cars, the 102 car on a type III frame, which uses the same body as the 4 window Chicago cars, the 1107/1108 cars on type III frames, which are the same size as the 4 window Chicago cars, and it shows 4 window Chicago cars.  Although I believe that the catalog shows the Chicago cars on the type II frames, it is likely that they were coming on the type III frames.  I know that the later Flyer catalogs often re-used earlier artwork with updated descriptions and this is probably the case with the 4 window Chicago cars in 1914.

That being said, I have seen and owned 4 window Chicago cars on the type III frames.  The only colors of 4 window Chicago cars I have seen on the type III frames are green bodied and red bodied cars. 

Another oddity on the type III frames, is the early tank car, which features the wooden tank, which is nailed onto the frame.  I have one of these tank cars on the type III frame.

NWL

 

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Posted by toy4sonny on Monday, April 6, 2015 1:13 PM

I collect AF chicago cars. I have dozens of boxes sets plus over 20 random cars pulled by various Type 1 clockwork engines (closed window-open 3 & 4 & 5 ). I only have one 4 window with a type III frame. And whenI put on magnifiers I can see the tabs have been very very carefully bent (probably with soft wooden angled small doll rod's). A good job but with 7X power one can see slight marks on my one car plus the dead "give away" of a little paint missing on tab edges ( ever so slight but always there ). Using old inventory-Maybe. Nothing is impossibe..

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Monday, April 6, 2015 11:17 AM

American Flyer Wide Gauge

#4152 Observation     Eagle

I have been trying to assemble a set of wide gauge "Eagle"  cars for a while now.  So far most of the examples that I have seen have been in well played with and loved condition.  At this point I have two observation cars.

This is the more common all green version.

I find it interesting that the back wall with the door to the observation platform in orange.

In my hunting for passenger coaches I came across an Eagle observation with an orange roof.

It differs from the other observation because it has brass air tanks instead of trusses and the back wall is red.

I have become a victim of poor memory or poor organization...or both.  I found some photos of green cars with orange roofs and with red roofs that someone sent to me in emails. I think that I must have posted about these cars somewhere at sometime, but I sure don't remember when or where.  Embarrassed

I'll have to do some hunting around to see if I can find out their source.  I don't like to post photos without the original owner's permission.

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Northwoods Flyer

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

of

American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

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Posted by mersenne6 on Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:52 PM

Wellllllll... apparently they don't matter, which makes me wonder about the point of their existence.  I tried the search the community over on the right and put in "American Flyer" and then clicked the choice of "Forums" in the upper left hand corner of the window that opened.  There is a tag listing further down on the left hand side but it is limited beyond belief and it doesn't look like it adds new entries so I guess the tag idea is a non-starter.  Oh well, it was worth a try.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, April 5, 2015 11:50 AM

Mersenne6,

I certainly like the idea of making the thread searcher friendly.  However, I must confess my ignorance.  I don't know how to do a search by tag.  I've never  been able to make the search function work to my advantage. I noticed that the Tag Cloud that used to appear in the right column disappeared in the last upgrade too.

The tags that I have added to my entries have not had any specific cataloging order.  I went back and looked at the ones that you added to your posts in the early pages.  I like what you have done so far and  I'm open to suggestions to put order to the chaos.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

of

American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

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Posted by mersenne6 on Sunday, April 5, 2015 10:42 AM

Northwoods, I was looking for something on the thread this morning and I noticed that you have added (been adding?) tags to the bottom of your posts.  Do you have a preferred cataloging nomenclature or is it just a free-for-all at the moment?  I put some on my posts to the first 5 or so pages of the thread - take a look and see what you think and if you have any recommendations let us know.  It may be that this is the way to make this very long thread searcher friendly.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Tuesday, March 17, 2015 6:47 AM

I agree that the Greenberg guide, second edition, is the one that you should have for Pre War American Flyer O (Narrow) gauge trains. While it does have its errors it is still the most complete reference with the most information.  There have been many items documented since the guide was completed, which is to be expected when you have folks like the participants here looking for variations and doing the research on thier history.  Its one of the things I like about this thread; there always seems to be something "new" turning up.  

I know that there is controversy surrounding the Doyle book, but it does provide additional information and photos of pieces. Its fairly inexpensive and its fun to see some items that aren't pictured in the Greenberg guide.  Watch eBay for copies of the Greenberg guide as well, sometimes the prices for the book are under $100.  I consult it several times a week, and one of my copies is pretty well thumbmarked, and it always goes to shows and on vacation with me.  Big Smile

Of course, there is always this thread.  It has lots of photos, provides information on variations, and will introduce you to some very nice and knowledgable folks.  I know its cumbersome to try and find a specific item.  Since the reformating of pages in the last upgrade the rudimentary index that existed is useless.  Maybe one day I'll attempt another index, but over 1400 posts to go through seems a bit daunting.

I think you will find the Greenberg guide a worthwhile and fun investment.

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Northwoods Flyer

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

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"The Toy For the Boy"

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Posted by mersenne6 on Friday, March 13, 2015 3:53 PM

  The Greenberg guides are good and I suspect you will have to wait a very, very long time before anyone tries to turn out anything like them.  I woiuld recommend getting one. As for the number of items on this thread that are not included in the guide that's pretty much what one would expect given Flyer's willingness to use up old inventory any way they could and the fact that the last time those guides were published was several years ago.

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Posted by rack776 on Friday, March 13, 2015 11:31 AM

It is the same with the Disney themed Lionel Cars, both old antique prewar and even the modern stuff. The prices are about 5 times higher for a box car with a cartoon mouse painted on it. Confused

Thanks for posting the Coke train link I never saw that set before, Have any history on it? Was it a give away item? Its pretty cool.  Someone should post the photos on here for a reference of the set.

Can anyone recomend a good O gauge Prewar Flyer guide book?

I have heard the David Doyle Flyer book is a disapointment for prewar O gauge items. I have seen the older 1980s used Greenburg Flyer books are pretty pricy on Amazon, there is no preview to see what you will get for your money.  I'd like to know how accurate or complete they are for a $75-$150 Book.  I've seen alot of items in this thread that are listed as "not being listed in the Greenburg guide".

Any advise on a good guide would be appreciated

-Jason Rackawack

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, March 12, 2015 2:24 PM

Northwoods Flyer

By the Way, if it had been purchased already, It wouldn't have been me.  Its an interesting set, and an even more interesting price,  Yikes.   Tongue Tied

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Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

Guys, I saw a not so nice quality coca-cola set listed a couple of years ago for around $8,500-$9,000 with a buy it now option (and possibly a best offer option).  That set was not as nice as the set currently listed and did not have a box (not that I would claim the box with the set currently on ebay is original).  Anyway, the set I saw a few years ago sold after a couple of days and I believe the selling price was around the $8,500 mark. 

Now I know it is difficult to figure out the buyer in ebay sales, but I saw that the buyer had been exclusively purchasing coca-cola items as opposed to train items, based on their feedback profile.  So, that just goes to show that there are some people even more crazy than train collectors. 

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Posted by mersenne6 on Thursday, March 12, 2015 11:54 AM

Thanks guys - I see it now - and that has to be what it was - bidding and a buy it now.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:31 AM

Indifferentmersenne6

This is the search that I use:

 

 

Once I get to the screen that shows items I used the Buy it Now option and found the auction eventually.

 

By the Way, if it had been purchased already, It wouldn't have been me.  Its an interesting set, and an even more interesting price,  Yikes.   Tongue Tied

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Northwoods Flyer

 

 

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

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American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:29 AM

Mersenne6,

It is likely not showing up on the "priced highest first" search because in addition to the buy it now option, the seller allowed bidding, with a low starting price and it probably keys into that.

Check ebay item number 111618323106

I am watching it in my ebay, so it is easier to track for me.

 

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Posted by mersenne6 on Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:02 AM

 Well, that's interesting.  I assumed it had been sold because it didn't show up on my search this morning.  If you run the search on Flyer and choose "price highest first" it doesn't appear - the first thing that shows up are the 3 #9915 cadmium cars.  I thought it was listed under Flyer because I am almost certain that's what I was searching last night but maybe there's some other way you are supposed to look for it.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, March 12, 2015 8:11 AM

Not sure what you are talking about, the coca-cola set is still listed with a buy-it-now of $7,500, as I am watching it.  Or was there another?

I saw one sell on ebay a couple of years ago for around $9,000 and the buyer was a coca-cola collector, not a train collector.

I suspect that a coca-cola collector would be more willing to pay that kind of money than a train collector.

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Posted by mersenne6 on Thursday, March 12, 2015 7:31 AM

  Ok, 'fess up.  Who did the "buy-it-now" over on e-bay for the Coca-Cola Flyer passenger set? Smile   Seriously, the e-bay offering is only the second time I've ever seen one of these sets for sale.  The first time was at a train show almost 30 years ago and it was snapped up at the then "bargin" price of $2,500.  The e-bay had a buy-it-now for three times that and it would appear someone took the seller up on the offer.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:50 PM

I agree with NationWideLines on the engine.  You have a 1688 engine from 1937. Its also known as a Type IX boiler casting.  The larger wheels, as also used on the Hiawatha, and the blackened brass trim along the running boards are the main clues.

Your blue green (sometimes called teal) passenger cars came with the grey Type VIII trucks for two years in the catalog.

 

1936

The catalog shows a 4 car set. In 1935 the same set was offered but it is described as having shiney silver cars, but in 1936 the catalog says that the colors of the cars may vary (probably the silver and blue cars)  These cars have the Type VIII trucks.

 

1937

Again Type VIII trucks.

1938

Trucks change  as do couplers.

1939

 

So your cars are most likely from the 1936 - 1937 era.

EDIT  My mistake, I looked back at your photo after I posted and I see that you do have a 4 car set.

You have a 3 car set, so either a car got lost along the way, or you have the 3 cars from the 1938 No. 3 Passenger set that is shown as having 3 blue cars and is pulled by the 4629 Streamlined Pennsylvania Engine.

 The catalog illustration looks like the trucks are black, but I bet that Gilbert was using up grey Type VIII trucks for that set.

Identifying the years that equipment was cataloged can be challenging. To complicate matters, there are many sets that were not cataloged and sold through large retail chains and small retail stores.  I hope you enjoy the hunt and more importantly, I hope you enjoy your American Flyer Trains.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

of

American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Tuesday, March 10, 2015 6:31 PM

You have a 1688 locomotive, which is denoted by the larger sized drive wheels. 

The tender you have dates to approximately 1930-1931.

If you are missing reverse unit parts, I would suggest you wire around it.  Those reverse units did not work well and are very frustrating to operate, as they often stick in the direction you do not want it to travel in.

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Posted by rack776 on Monday, March 9, 2015 10:02 PM

Neat story...the wrapping paper scrap is too coolSmile

 

 A few posts back I had asked About A 3315/1688 Prewar Locomotive that I had bought.
Well, Here are the photos of the engine, tender and passenger cars as I got them.
Can anyone share more information about them?

What would identfy this engine as a 3315 or a 1688?


 This engine was missing the headlight trim, I added a polished brass headlight from a broken junk box body.
I belive the original headllight trim may have originally been blackened brass, the running board brass trim is blackened.
The green running board stripes match the paint on the 4 passenger cars I have.

I checked arround with a magnet and I noticed much of the "brass" trim on the engine and passenger cars is actually not real brass.
It is either brass plated steel or nickel plated steel with yellow brass colored clear coat.

 The rear locomotive truck looks like someone used smaller diameter nickel plated replacement wheels on the original truck bracket.
The reverse unit is missing the entire front bracket and its contact plate, it was bypassed and wired to run forward only. 

 The box the engine came in has a 3315 stamp on it, the instruction sheet shows the same style chassis & reverse unit that is  in the locomotive I have. 

The tender & cars did not come with any boxes or papers.

If you look at the erector set drawings in my previous post further up this page, it shows the same style engine with the large drive wheels. However all the other info I have seen shows the 3315 as having small drive wheels.

 I guess I could try to call it a 1936 B&O set with an owner/dealer substituted engine and a replacement for a lost original tender, or  maybee it is an orphan erector set locomotive that gained a spare tender and some passenger cars?   They all look good together to me even if it was never sold this way in a catalog. I plan on finding a proper tender with the gold step and decals someday.

 

Clicking on the photos will link to the original sized photo to zoom in if a larger view is needed.

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

 

After some research I found the tender looks to be made earlier than the cars and locomotive.

The trucks have one large opening instead of 3 and the nameplates are stamped brass not decals,

Anyone have any idea what years this tender was made?

7

8

 

The passenger cars are actually a Green/Blue kind of like a Jade Green.

I have only seen photos of light blue & silver cars in this style,  The paint does not look discolored or stained and the insides match the outsides.

The rear wall of the observation car is silver like the roofs.

They have no signs of ever being taken apart or repainted.

Can anyone tell me what year these cars were made or what sets they could have been from?

9

10

11

12

13


Thanks for any help identifing these items.

Also what is this style reverse unit with the moveable field called?
I dont know what to call or where to search for the missing reverse unit parts.


I need spare parts or at least good clear & straight photos with measurements to recreate the missing reverse parts.
Does anyone have a source for the correct rear truck wheels now that MEW is out of business?

-Jason Rackawack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, March 8, 2015 3:37 PM

NationWideLines, 

You find some of the most interesting variations.  Thanks for posting them.

I'm adding the 2014 American Flyer Tale for Christmas here. Its been out there as a separate thread for a while, but I like to include them here on this thread as well. So it isn't anything new if you have already read it.  What I will add is some additional  photos of the The Merchant set from 1928 that plays a role in the story.

 

And here is the story:

 

An American Flyer Tale For Christmas

2014 Edition

 

 
“Its finally done.” Steve thought to himslf as he eased himself into the big upholstered wing chair in his train room.  It had been his practice for years to hide himself away in the train room after the children were tucked away in bed on Christmas Eve.  Then he could wrap presents in peace without fear of being discovered.  Each year it seemed that the job took longer as the number of presents increased.  He and his wife talked about cutting  back every year,  but that never seemed to happen.  He usually had a stack of old Christmas movies ready to watch as he did the wrapping.  He enjoyed watching “White Christmas”,  “The Bishop’s Wife”, and “Christmas in Connecticut”.  His favorite by far was “A Christmas Carol”, of which he had several versions.
 
Now that he had finished the wrapping it was well after midnight.  He had made himself a good strong Tom and Jerry and settled into his favorite spot in the train room.  Steve took a sip of the holiday beverage and gazed around the train room.  The layout looked great with some Christmas themed items placed on it.  It was particularly fun when he turned the room lights out and let the glow of street lamps and lighted buildings provide the illumination.  His eyes roamed over the walls of the room, taking in the collection of Pre War American Flyer Trains that he had gathered.  Over the years he had purchased individual cars and engines, accessories, and on rare occassions a complete set.  He enjoyed looking at the collection of Narrow and Wide Gauge trains, remembering how he had aquired the pieces and from whom.  It pleased him to think that he had brought together items that had their common beginnings at the factory building on Halsted street in Chicago.  He knew very little about where most of the trains had spent their time since leaving the factory.  A few of the pieces he had purchased from their original owners, or at least from the family that had originally owned them.  He knew their stories.  He wondered what kinds of stories the other trains would tell if they could talk.  He considered it a priviledge to be their current owner and thought of himself as their caretaker while they were in his possession.
 
He took a longer sip of his drink and started to watch “A Christmas Carol.”  He wasn’t quite sure which ghost was about to make its appearance when he had dozed off, but when he woke up the credits for the movie were rolling on the screen.  He picked up the remote and turned off the system.  The light from the TV glowed for a fraction of a second and then blinked off.  Steve settled back into the chair for  few seconds and he thought about mustering up the energy to head to bed.   
 
He listened to the antique station clock that he kept on the wall of the train room ticking at a steady rate.  Each “tick” was answered with a slightly deeper “tock” and a soft high pitched squeak as the pendulum headed back to “tick”.  Suddenly he noticed that the rhythmic “tick tock”  had stopped.  He opened his eyes and looked at the clock.  The room was gently bathed in light from the layout.  His attention was drawn to a blue point of light reflected in the glass covering the face of the  clock.  He looked in the direction where the source of the light originated.  As he watched, the light began to grow in size.   It grew until it touched the floor and stood about 5 feet tall.  Steve was fascinated by the  way the blue light shimmered and rippled as it grew.  It almost seemed alive.  The intensity of the light remained the same but at its core something began to take shape.  As he watched, a human form began to materialize.  It appeared to be a young boy, dressed in the clothes of a decade long past, bathed in the cool blue light.  The boy was facing away from Steve and it looked as if he was searching among the shelves of engines and freight cars and passenger trains for something.  Up and down the boy’s head bobed as he moved along the length of the shelves.  When he reached the end of the last set of shelves the boy was only a few feet away from where Steve sat in his chair.  Slowly the apparition, bathed in blue light, turned and looked at Steve.  Their eyes met and instantly Steve felt at ease.  The young face was alert, friendly and excited.  The boy spoke, “Please sir, can you tell me where it is?”   For some reason it didn’t seem strange to him that this spectral boy should be talking to him.  He thought for a moment and then responded.  “What are you looking for?”
“My missing car.” the boy said.  “It’s a green sand car.”
“I have several of them on the shelves.  You didn’t see one like it?  Steve replied.
“No sir.  I didn’t see my car.  It was part of my Christmas present in 1928.   I started looking at the train catalogs as soon as they arrived at Olsen’s Hardware store that year.  I looked at the Lionel catalog and I looked at the American Flyer catalog.  It was hard to decide which train to pick so I could  put it in the Christmas letter that I sent to Santa.  I finally picked the #1387 Merchant Set.  And she was a beauty mister.  The set had a #3185 electric engine, a beautiful red caboose, a machinery car, a box car, and my green sand car.  I sent my letter to Santa as soon as I made my decision.  My dad took it to the Post Office and sent it off Special Delivery for me.”
 
The boy went on; ”On Christmas Eve our whole family gathered at my grandpa and grandma’s house.  All of my aunts and uncles and cousins were there.  We had a swell time together.  All of us kids kept trying to sneak into the parlor to see if Santa had brought us anything.  At last grandpa said it was time to go into the parlor and open presents.  I spotted my present from Santa right away.  The box was the right size and it was wrapped in red paper with candy canes on it.  My oldest cousin passed out all the presents and sure enough that present was mine.  I was so excited I could hardly wait for my turn to open my present.  Finally I got to tear the paper off the box.  The label said it was the #1387 -  The Merchant.  I took the top of the box off and each box inside was wrapped in green Christmas paper.  One by one I took the boxes out and unwrapped them until the whole set stood on grandma’s oriental carpet.  Mister, It was the most beautiful train set in the whole world.”
 
“You should have seen the parlor.  It was full of torn wrapping paper and boxes and packing papers.  My cousins and I, and my uncles too, set the track up, hooked up the wires, put the engine and cars on the track and away she went.  Everybody took a turn at being the engineer of  The Merchant.  We even turned off the lights in the parlor except for the ones on the Christmas tree and pretended The Merchant was running through the night.  Before you knew it my mom and dad said it was time to go home.  I put all the cars back in their boxes and some of my cousins helped me put it all back in the big box.  The boxes and track were harder to put back in than they were to take out, but finally everything was back in the box and the lid shut.”
 
“The next day I was up early to play with my new train.  I unpacked all the cars and the track in the living room and sent The Merchant whizzing around the track.  It only took one trip around the track and I realized that the green sand car was missing.  I looked through the boxes again, but it wasn’t there.  I searched through all the presents under the tree without finding the car.  I asked mom and dad and my brother and sister but they didn’t know where it was.  I even had my mom call grandma  to see if it was still in the parlor, but they couldn’t find my sand car either.”
 
“Mister, my sand  car disappeared just as if it never existed. But I know I had it that first night because we loaded it with candy and sent it around the track.  I never did find the sand car or the box it came in.”
 
“So I came here tonight to see if maybe you had it.  You have so many trains.  I’d sure like to see The Merchant run again.”
 
Steve thought for a moment. “ I think I have all of those cars and the engine.  I didn’t realize I had all the components of The Merchant until you started talking about it.”
 
“Could you find them mister?  I sure would like to see her run again.”
 
Steve got up from the chair and made his way around the shelves.  He grabbed a #3185 from the engines on display.  Then he found a box car, and a machinery car and a caboose on different shelves that were from 1928.  He put them on the track in front of the transformer.  He was lacking the #3207 green sand car.  He went back to the shelves to look for one.
 
“You don’t have the right one mister.  I looked all over for one.”
 
Steve stood looking at his ghostly visitor.  All at once he snapped his fingers, bent down and pulled a storage box from under the layout.  He rummaged in the box for a few seconds and then pulled out a very old and fragile looking cardboard box.  He opened the box and pulled open the waxed wrapping paper that cushioned the car inside.  There in the box was an almost pristine #3207 sand car.  It matched the other cars he had assembled from 1928 that sat on the track.  He lifted out the car and showed it to the boy.
 
“Hey! That’s it!  That’s just like my missing car!  You found it!”
 
A feeling of excitement welled up in Steve.  He carried the sand car to the track and coupled up all of the cars to the engine.  He flipped the switch on the vintage transformer and the red and green lights glowed softly.  He looked up at his visitor and asked “Would you like to run her?”
 
“Oh Swell!  Can I?” the boy replied.
Steve stepped away from the transformer and the boy placed his pale hand on the throttle.  The engine came to life and the train moved around the layout.  They stood side by side watching The Merchant go on its way to make deliveries.  He wasn’t sure how long they stood watching the train when the boy finally looked down at the box that held the #3207.  He picked it up and examined it.  He let out a shout of excitement. “Holy Cats! Hey mister this is my missing sand car!  Look here on the box.  There is some paper still stuck to the box with tape.  That’s the paper all of the boxes inside the set box were wrapped in.  Holy Cats!  I finally found it!  Thank mister, thanks a lot.”
 
Steve smiled broadly as  he watched the boy bathed in blue light running the train.  As he watched, he began to feel tired, and he started to yawn uncontrollably.  He moved back to his big comfortable chair and sat down.  He watched contentedly as the headlights of the engine moved around the layout.  The next thing he was aware of was the sound of the ticking of the station clock on the wall.  He opened his eyes and looked at the soft glow of the street lamps and illuminated houses on the layout.
 
“Wow! What a dream.  Its amazing what you get when you mix a Tom and Jerry, gift wrapping and A Christmas Carol.”  He chuckled to himself as he got out of his chair and headed for the door of the train room.  Just as he was about to turn off the power to the layout something caught his attention.  On the track sat a cardboard box that usually held an American Flyer #3207 sand car.  A little further down the track was a train headed by an electric engine.  Steve recognized a Merchant freight train.  What surprised him even more was the miniature figure standing in front of the freight station.  It was a figure that he didn’t recognize. It was a young boy dressed in clothing from a decade long past.  His arm was raised in a wave of greeting, and he had a big smile on his face.
 
1928 American Flyer Catalog
The Merchant
The set assembled by Steve
The Merchant running on the layout
 
 
The boxed #3207
 
 
The box with the tape and a remnant of green wrapping paper
 
 
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Northwoods Flyer
 
 
 

 

The Northwoods Flyer Collection

of

American Flyer Trains

"The Toy For the Boy"

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