I have recently picked up a locomotive that I have seen described as a Hudson. I'm not sure yet if it is a 1680 or 1681 (or what the difference is between the two).
From what I have seen (example below from internet stock photo)
American Flyer "Hudsons" have a 2-6-4 wheel arrangement. I believe true-life Hudsons actually had 4-6-4 wheel arrangements. I wonder if American Flyer thought that maybe the second lead truck wheels were hidden behind the steam chest/cylinders and therefore not necessary. I also know on some AF models that the front wheels on the trailing truck were also "implied" rather than actually there.
While I realize this isn't a repair or restoration site, it seems like I often have these sorts of questions. If there is a better forum that y'all know about to ask these things, please let me know. I have, though, always received good information here.
So here is the question. I have recently started to work on a motor from an aluminum Zephyr 9900. Pulling off the wheels I found - alas - "ovalized" bushings. I know one option is to break apart the motor chassis and replace the bushings (if you ccan find them). But I have the general idea that is not the easiest thing to do - actually putting it back together. So here is my plan. I have ordered some stainless steel tubing with an O.D. larger than the bushing openings and an I.D. just right (I hope) for the axle. My plan is to drill out the bushings just enough to insert the axle tube. I only have a drill press, so I know this is not best in terms of precision. I'm thinking though that since the tube will cross between the bushings that if it is pretty much level it should be OK. The centers of the axles will stay the same.
Has anyone tried this? Is it a terrible idea? I have brass tubimg that would work, but thought stainless would be better than either brass or aluminium.
I doubt that the train will be running regularly (of course if I even get it to run) so heavy durability is not an issue.
Thanks for any comments you may have.
Craig
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer
Craig;
Even if the wheel configuration for Flyer's "Hudson" isnt exactly correct it is an amazing piece of work for the time that it was produced.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer So here is my plan. I have ordered some stainless steel tubing with an O.D. larger than the bushing openings and an I.D. just right (I hope) for the axle. My plan is to drill out the bushings just enough to insert the axle tube. I only have a drill press, so I know this is not best in terms of precision. I'm thinking though that since the tube will cross between the bushings that if it is pretty much level it should be OK. The centers of the axles will stay the same. Has anyone tried this? Is it a terrible idea? I have brass tubimg that would work, but thought stainless would be better than either brass or aluminium. Thanks for any comments you may have. Craig
So here is my plan. I have ordered some stainless steel tubing with an O.D. larger than the bushing openings and an I.D. just right (I hope) for the axle. My plan is to drill out the bushings just enough to insert the axle tube. I only have a drill press, so I know this is not best in terms of precision. I'm thinking though that since the tube will cross between the bushings that if it is pretty much level it should be OK. The centers of the axles will stay the same.
Although softer and perhaps harder to work with in terms of "press fit" I think I would go for the brass. SS is awful hard stuff! I would imagine there is a reason you never see SS bushings on anything.. and it probably has to do with lubrication. Plus now the axle instead of riding on bushings at two points will be riding the entire length of the proposed SS tubing, sounds like a good deal more friction. Bronze will become oil soaked to a degree, I wonder if the same is true of brass. Are there any bronze bushings you can find? Also if you had a brass tube with a smaller ID than the axles, you could make up a jig to hold the chassis and line bore the brass for a perfect and true fit. It would take some set up time, but that's the beauty of a drill press.
As to getting the train running, remember we are only the temporary caretakers of these wonderful toys.
just my two cents.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer While I realize this isn't a repair or restoration site, it seems like I often have these sorts of questions. If there is a better forum that y'all know about to ask these things, please let me know. I have, though, always received good information here. So here is the question. I have recently started to work on a motor from an aluminum Zephyr 9900. Pulling off the wheels I found - alas - "ovalized" bushings. I know one option is to break apart the motor chassis and replace the bushings (if you ccan find them). But I have the general idea that is not the easiest thing to do - actually putting it back together. So here is my plan. I have ordered some stainless steel tubing with an O.D. larger than the bushing openings and an I.D. just right (I hope) for the axle. My plan is to drill out the bushings just enough to insert the axle tube. I only have a drill press, so I know this is not best in terms of precision. I'm thinking though that since the tube will cross between the bushings that if it is pretty much level it should be OK. The centers of the axles will stay the same. Has anyone tried this? Is it a terrible idea? I have brass tubimg that would work, but thought stainless would be better than either brass or aluminium. I doubt that the train will be running regularly (of course if I even get it to run) so heavy durability is not an issue. Thanks for any comments you may have. Craig
Craig,
I have a friend who does something similar to what you are proposing. However, what he does is to drill out the bushings to a slightly larger size and then he puts in an oversize axle. According to him, this takes care of the slop in the bushings. However, instead of a drill press, he is using a lathe and boring through both sides of the engine at the same time, which makes it so that the axles are still level.
NWL
Thank you Northwoods Flyer for your (as always) very helpful information and pictures. The number thing makes sense to me now.
If UPS tracking is correct, I will receive the Hudson and tender tomorrow (Monday). I will post pictures. Yes there are cars, but only two (coach and observation). I am not sure of the condition of any of them, but from the description will likely have to replace the lead and trailing truck wheels (already ordered from Geo Tebolt). I will be interested to learn about the identifying marks.
I absolutely agree Northwoods that these are impressive (and gorgeous) locomotives. I just love the appearance and detail of American Flyer steam locos. I recently purchased a Type VIII 2-4-2 which is also a real beauty - a true work of art. From the information I have gleaned about these (mainly from Binns Road), there were different numbers associated with each year they were made. It is stated there: "The loco is a Type VIII that was produced between 1931 to 1937. However, the loco itself did not seem to have a particular catalog number. It was available under several catalog numbers as a locomotive-tender combination: 641 (in 1936), 1687 (1937), 3302 (1931), 3323 (1934), 3324 (1935), 3326 (1932-35). The catalog numbers varied according to the tender." The one I bought was listed as a 641 and the tender as a 3199 Type 4. I really have no reason to doubt those. I'll also post pictures of those in case you have more information.
Thank you Gray Cat and NWL for your comments and suggestions on my motor repair idea. I thought stainless mainly because of durability. I'll have to try a few things and see if any look to be useful. One aspect of course is in measurement and clearance. I believe the axles are 5/32." I drilled out the bushings (without altering the opening) in the frame. I believe the opening is 9/32." Using my calipers I learned that the opening is really about 0.300" whereas 9/32 is 0.28125." The axle measured pretty close to 0.156." I have ordered stainless tube with an OD of 0.25" and IDs of 0.180" and 0.194." So I'll have to see how the axle fits with these. One thought I had was to wrap the outside ends of the tube in copper foil tape (like used in stained glass) to thicken the tube to the 0.300" diameter of the frame hole, and then maybe put a spot of solder on the tape inside of the frames to hold the tube in place. As an alternative, I have also ordered some flanged ball bearings that have an ID of 4mm (0.157") and an OD of 7mm (0.276") as well as a set of 4mm X 8mm (0.315"). I'll also try these out for fit, both with the axle and opening. Sorry for all the detail here. I will post what I find, including some pictures if any of these solution turns out to be useful.
In a broader sense I have entertained the idea of a forum thread called something like "Repair and Restoration Tips and Ideas for Prewar O Gauge American Flyer." My internet searches have indicated quite a bit for "S" scale but only bits and pieces here and there for "O" scale. While I recognize that alteration of these trains is controversial (i.e. in terms of collector value), I think there are many folks who buy these things on eBay or find them at garage sales, in attics, or at auctions; find them to be in less than operable shape; and would be interested in returning them to operation. The thread could provide a number of things that I think could be useful: specifications of types (particularly locos and motors); specifications of measurements; parts descriptions, pictures and numbers; electrical diagrams; links to parts suppliers; repair tips, ideas, and procedures; and restoration links(e.g. there is a nice two part youtube video on restoring a 1681) to name a few. This actually seems a bit daunting and I'm not even sure a forum thread would be best place. I have received a bunch of good help on this thread and would reprint (with permission of course) those things - for instance the invluable information y'all provided to me on changing the wheels on an electric loco. Anyway, this is just something I have thought about. I suppose a Greenwood guide might supply some of this.
My understanding is that the bushes should be of soft material to wear in place of the axle.
If you use stainless steel which may be harder than the axle material, the axle will wear in contact with the bush rather than vice versa.
If it is significantly easier to replace the axle rather than the bush, this might be a good move. If you want to preserve the axle rather than the bush, stainless steel might not be a good selection.
M636C
I haven't done this with Flyer, but I used standard brass tubing on 2 Ives locos that had worn "bearings" (one had scored axles as well). The "bearings" were originally just holes punched in the steel frame sides. The locos would often require a push to get started , made a grinding noise when they ran, and would sometimes stop when the gears did not mesh perfectly. The first one I did started fine afterwards and reduced noise about 80%. I used a taper reamer to enlarge the hole to fit the tubing. The second one I used a round file worked very carefully. This one ran like it was brand new -- perfect starts and no grinding noise at all. I did lubricate the tubing well, inside and out (sort of "double slip bearings"). I have been very pleased with the results.
Yes, JDET1, that is what I hoped might work. Thanks for your description. Are the tubes you used pressure fit into the holes or did you use something else to keep them in place? I ordered and received stainless tube, but comments from M636C and Gray Cat have led me to realize this may not be a good choice. So I'm thinking I will need to buy some brass tube and a taper reamer.
The metric flange bearings I ordered will not work. The 4mm ID is too small and the 5mm ID is too large (as is the 3/16" ID).
Northwoods, I hope to post the pictures of the Hudson and 2-4-2 later today or tomorrow. Too many other things have been popping up.
Here is the Hudson. It is in maybe average condition. The motor does not run right off, but the wheels turn fairly freely (given all of that linkage they are pushing) and the drive wheels look to be OK.
The lead truck wheels will need to be replaced as will a couple of the trailing truck wheels.
The cab roof is bent in one corner. I don't think I will try to straighten it as I'm afraid it would snap off.
Boy these Hudsons are BIG. The tender is huge compared to anything else I have.
Here is the 2-4-2 (641) which I thought was a big engine. It pales next to the Hudson, especially the tender.
So it looks like I will have to pull the motor on the Hudson and check the wiring, brushes etc., and clean and lubricate. Hopefully that will do the trick. I think the e-unit may also need some servicing.
All in all though, a pretty impressive engine.
The two passenger cars (coach and observation) look to be in good shape.
Looking at the size/length of the Hudson set I'm thinking the minimum diameter curve for this set might be at least 42" (I don't have Flyer track, but think the min diameter curve on that track is 40").
I guess I didn't use the tubes as bearings in the conventional sense (as used in bushing postwar flyer PA's). Since the gear was attached to one wheel on the outside the the Ives locos I fixed, I enlarged the ovalized hole (being sure to try to file it out so the center would would bring the wheel gear to be the exact difference from the intermediate gear it was before the wear took place) to just ever so slightly larger than the tube (i.e., a loose fit, not pressed in). I cut the length of the brass tube to be the exact length of the whole axle when the wheels were put back on. Fortunately with Ives the inside diameter of the of the tube was perfect for the outside diameter of the original axle (Flyer axles may not be just right?). The meant I also enlarged the hole on the frame on the opposite side, which was also ovalized, but not as much. Then I oiled both the outer layer of the brass tube where it passed through the frame AND the inner part of the tube and original axle. This worked well for me, since some fun-loving kid had run the heck out of his loco years ago with out lubing them, and had not only worn out the bearing hole, but had worn grooves in the axles too. I figure this way, if the brass wears (hopefully more likely to wear than the steel frame or axle), I can easily replace it. If there were a gear in the center of the axle, you could cut a separate tube for both sides . Or, if the bearing hole on the side of the opposite side of the frame away the gear was not worn nor a groove worn in the axle, you could cut the tube long enough to butt up against the frame and not go through to the other wheel.
Thank you JDET1. That is a very clear description. I have picked up some brass tube that I think will work, and ordered a taper reamer. The holes in the motor frame are just a smidgeon less than 5/16" and the axles are 5/32." I would probably have a hard time finding a tube with those dimensions, so I will try using multiple tubes, one inside the other to achieve that result. While I think I can let the inner tubes free float, the outermost (5/16") tube will be attached in some way to the frame so that it cannot slip inside with side-to-side movement. Running the tubes from wheel to wheel could work, but may be too much with the multiple tubes.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer,
You picked up a nice example of the Flyer Hudson. Even if it isn't in pristine condition it is still impressive. Its actually pre-weathered. I appreciate every scrape and dent and ding that the items in my collection have. Those imperfections tell the story of how much enjoyment our trains have brought to their original owners. I look forward to hearing about your progress in getting it to run again. Its always nice to bring these things back to life. The passenger cars look to be in fairly good condition too, and you should be able to pick up some additional cars fairly easily if you want more.
One of the folks who got me into collecting prewar trains used to tell the story of how when he was a young boy he and his friends would hold train races with their standard gauge trains. They would set up long stretches of straight track on the floor, put their engines on the track and race them at full throttle. When I first heard the story all I could think of was the mayhem at the end of the track when the engines flew off and onto the floor or banged into furniture. He told me that they took the cushions off the overstuffed chairs and sofa and ran the engines into them. Needless to say once mom found out about it the races were called for the day.
I like your idea of setting up a thread on repair and maintenance of Pre War Flyer. You are certainly welcome to post that information here too. From what I have been reading it looks as if you have gotten some good information and additional perspectives on how to deal with your bushing issue. I'm not much of a repairman when it comes to the trains I have, but that is an aspect of the hobby I hope to pursue when I retire..someday.
Oh and if you think that the Narrow Gauge engines are substantial, just wait until you get bitten by the Wide Gauge bug.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
Set #1323 1931 Iron Duke
As I have collected Pre War trains over the years one of my goals has been to assemble sets as they appeared in the catalogs. It is very rare that I have been able to afford an entire set and even less likely that I have been able to afford an entire set in its original box from its original owner (the gold standard of authenticity). As a result I have purchased individual cars, or sets of cars, engines, tenders and accompanying accessories as I find them. I have reached the point in my collecting addiction that I can finally assemble some sets. This is where having catalogs (although not in identifying every set) and other resources has been invaluable.
Today let me present the Iron Duke, set #1323 from 1931.
The set appears in the upper right hand corner of the page.
Yes, the side rod is a reproduction and Trickel makes them. I just picked up a few from him for some of my engines this past York. The originals are a much darker shade of gray.
Northwoods - Very nice looking set! In many ways it looks like the smaller version to my Wide Gauge set "The Century" 1931? (I don't have my reference material with me for the year). I'm still looking for some of the cars to complete my set, it's been more than a few months and no luck yet.
Which brings me to my question. Approximately how long did it take for you to "build" this set?
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Back a few pages there was a discussion of the 2218 Block Signal. At this past York I noted a couple of late light green 2218's. I could not recall seeing one before and found this one.
NationWideLines,
When you posted your color variation of the 2218 I had to go check the examples in my collection. I discovered that I had a light green variation as well.
Here are the examples that I have
Thanks for the further information Northwoods. I think the wide-gauge bug hasn't noticed me yet since I have a whole lot of narrow gauge projects in my queue. While awaiting parts and tools to start the axle bushing replacement on the 9900 motor, I started on the Hudson.
You said you were interested in a progress report, so I'll start that. I started out simply with replacing the lead truck wheels. That involved grinding down the ridge on one side of the axle, pulling the axle though the truck, slightly widening the holes in the new wheels (to 5/32), sliding one wheel on, then sliding the axle back through the truck and sliding the second wheel on, then peening (not sure if that is the right term) the outside of the axle to recreate the ridge that holds the wheel on. I'll post pictures in a bit.
Next, the motor. Oh brother. I pulled the motor and disconnected much of the rods and such. I also disconnected the motor wires from the light sockets in the loco body (one was already off). Then I spent the next week an hour or two at a time trying to get the motor to run. I loosened the wheels a bit (one was rubbing on the frame) lubricated everything and cleaned with contact cleaner). I pulled the brush housing and cleaned and polished the armature contact plates, then re-installed the housing with the springs and brushes in place. Tried it out . . no soap. So then I started fiddling with the reverse unit and eventually wired around it. Nope. Hours of frustration. I was ready to conclude it was a lost cause, but decided to try once more. I then checked the wiring for continuity to see if I could find any shorts. Lo and behold there was perfect continuity between the two brush tubes. That shouldn't be. I discovered a previous owner had soldered the wires to the brush tubes in such a way that there was electrical contact between the tube and the housing. I cleaned up all of the soldering, but still was getting humming and strange sparking from one brush tube. Off again with the brush housing, redoing the wiring and soldering to the brush tubes and discovering that the brush springs were too short. One had been stretched way out, the other was not putting any pressure on the brush. So I found four springs in my parts and put two in each side. I then remounted the housing (tip: use small pieces of tape to hold the brushes in the housing while you mount it, then pull the tape out). I hooked 'er up and to my amazement the motor ran! Now I have to decide whether to hook up the reverse stuff or not. I'll probably just go with forward only as I have heard that the reverse mechanism is not reliable. There are two screws on the top of the motor chassis that look to be there to lock up the large pivoting arm of the reverse system. But then again I might hook that back up and see. It is apretty crude system with an arm that pivots down when power is initiated and engages "v" grooves in a tilting block moving it from one side to the other, allowing fingers and contact strips to engage in appropriate combinations. Well, I'll sleep on it - better now knowing I actually have a running motor.
Replacing the wheels on the lead truck of the 1680 Hudson.
1. Remove the truck from the locomotive.
2. Using a Dremel grinding bit, remove the ridge on one end of the axle.
3. Slide the wheel off. Notice the axle has the end ridge ground down.
4. Pull the axle through the truck weight and slide the other wheel off. Notice the difference between the end of the axle with the ridge and the one that has been ground down.
5. Slide on a new wheel (I had to drill the holes in the new wheels to 5/32), slide the axle through the truck frame, and slide on the 2nd wheel.
6. Using a hammer, place the ridged end of the axle on a firm surface and use a hammer to strike the other end slightly obliquely to recreate a ridge on the previously ground down surface. This only took a few moderate strikes.
This is how I did it and it worked fine. There may be other and better ways.
Northwoods,
My previous photos did not show well, so I took this photo. The color on this signal is the very late light green that would be described as an apple green. It appears on a number of later Flyer items including the 2042 automatic crosssing gate and the 2043 train control semaphore. It also was used on late c. 1939 freight cars, including log, gondola, and dump cars, and some accessory bases.
I believe that your variation is a late dark colored block signal as I have another dark colored block signal in the same type of box as my light colored variation.
Hopefully this photo shows the color a bit better
AF53 Northwoods - Very nice looking set! In many ways it looks like the smaller version to my Wide Gauge set "The Century" 1931? (I don't have my reference material with me for the year). I'm still looking for some of the cars to complete my set, it's been more than a few months and no luck yet. Which brings me to my question. Approximately how long did it take for you to "build" this set?
AF53,
I did a quick check of the catalogs and it looks like "The Century" was cataloged in 1932. There was a similar looking set in Narrow Gauge that same year called the "New Paul Revere" which was headed by a bell ringing 3315 and had two 3171 pullmans and a 3172 observation, all of which were lighted. Flyer really liked the tan and green combination on its passenger cars.
Its hard to predict how long it might take to find the additional items to complete a set. With my Iron Duke set it took about 2 years. I happened across the three passenger cars in a lot on ebay about two years ago. The matching engine was a very recent purchase. Part of the reason being that I couldn't find an engine in a condition that I found acceptable. I am not a purist by any means but the examples of the 3194 engine that I did find were either in a condition that I wasn't willing to accept or they went for more money than I was willing to pay. I finally decided to throw out a bid on a nicely restored example. The hunt is definitely a part of the hobby that I enjoy. I have also learned that if I am patient the item that I want will become available at a price I am willing to pay. There are still several sets that I am working on to complete. Sadly it seems to be a truism that I come across them when I am least able to afford them. However, I follow the philosophy of a collector that I knew early in my collecting career. "The time to buy an antique (read "train") is when you see it." I bet that the additional items that you are looking for will appear when you least expect them. The Dixie Queen set that I posted earler was on my 'Wanted" list for almost 4 years before I finally found it in a condition that I would accept for a price I was willing to pay.
Thanks for the update on your Hudson project and especially for the "how to" with excellent and detailed photos on replacing the wheels in lead or trailing trucks. That is invaluable information. I have several engines that are in need of the same kind of repair. You almost give me the courage to try it on my own.
Thanks for the additional photo and clarification on the lighter color on the block signal. The variations in prewar Flyer just seem to go on and on.
Thank you Northwoods. I need to clarify that the lead and trailing trucks have different construction. The lead truck wheels rotate freely on the axle and are held onto the axle by the ridges on the ends of the axle itself. The trailing truck wheels do not turn on their axles. The axles are splined and it is the axles that turn within the journals of the truck. I'll start a set of pictures and comment about repairing those wheels here. I thought I had ordered trailing truck wheels, but discovered I hadn't. When I have them I will complete the repair description.
For now, here is the rear truck with the damaged wheels.
The axles are gently pried from the truck frame. The wheels are then removed using a wheel puller (alternatively, the axles could likely be punched out) . You can see the splines on the axle onto which the wheels are press-fit.
The new wheels are drilled to 5/32" to fit the axle.
The new wheels are then press fit onto the axle splines using an arbor press. The wheels are spaced correctly when they just cover the splines on the axle.
The wheels/axle then are fitted back into the trailing truck frame.
Set 1469 Frontier Town 1930 and 1931
My parents always told me that patience was a virtue, and that all good things come to those who wait. Those values have come in handy in the collecting hobby. My collecting career has been filled with examples of waiting until the right piece comes along in a condition that I will accept for the collection and at a price that I am willing to pay. I've been able to complete the assembly of a number of sets recently, after waiting for the last car or the engine to appear. The Frontier Town cataloged in 1930 and 1931 is an example.
What happened to the Christmas story and the comments that followed?
The American Flyer Tale for Christmas - 2012 Edition has its own thread here:
http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/212301/2325440.aspx#2325440
I haven't posted it on this thread yet. I thought I would do that sometime after Christmas. The 2011 editon about Petey Menardi and his Christmas list for 1930 is posted on page 54 :
http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/116423.aspx?sort=ASC&pi350=54
Northwoods wrote
"Schuweiler indicates that these cars do have a variation. They come with spring loaded opening doors as this example does or decaled doors. Hmmm I wonder when those will turn up?"
I did not actually read Alan's description of these cars, but the two variations are the spring loaded doors that you show in the photos or unpunched doors that are lithographed. Not sure where the decaled door comes in, other than in the red warrior type cars. I have seen the lithographed door variation of these cars before and I would not say that they are rare.
Northwoods commented on the smooth roofs versus roofs with ventilators and the extra car he purchased having smooth roofs versus his set with the ventilators. My set has smooth roofs on all cars with the springloaded doors. Possibly the difference is related to production year?
Nationwidelines Northwoods wrote "Schuweiler indicates that these cars do have a variation. They come with spring loaded opening doors as this example does or decaled doors. Hmmm I wonder when those will turn up?" I did not actually read Alan's description of these cars, but the two variations are the spring loaded doors that you show in the photos or unpunched doors that are lithographed. Not sure where the decaled door comes in, other than in the red warrior type cars. I have seen the lithographed door variation of these cars before and I would not say that they are rare.
My mistake, I guess I shouldn't write my postings late at night. Schuweiler does say that they are unpuched doors that are lithographed not decaled. I'm glad they aren't rare, at least I should be able to come across a set at some point.
I will also have to watch more closely for smooth roofed versions since you believe that they probably came that way as your set would indicate.
Have you ever seen the red roofed version? Schuweiler asks for confirmation in his book. I wonder if they have turned up since the book was published?
Not sure about the red roofed variation. I know that there are some roof color variations on these types of cars, inclusive of the statesman, eagle, and yorktown/bunker hill type lithographed cars, but I do not really follow all of the variations of wide gauge flyer and am by no means an expert on wide gauge.
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