NationWideLines,
Your post prompted me to go back and take a closer look at my examples of the signal.
Here are three of them:
The signal on the left is the one that came in the 4116 box. I was mistaken about the standard of the green signal on the right in the earlier post. What I thought was a solid standard is actually pierced on both of the examples.
The boxed 4116 on the left has a larger bell.
All of my examples of the bell, no matter what the size are marked
1877
Edwards
The green standard example has the solid standard on two sides, but the smaller bell. Oh how I wish we could ask someone how decisions were made at the factory.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Switching gears slightly, here are some unusual colored lithograph cars c. 1918. 1108 baggage, 1107 American Flyer Coach, and 1107 B&O coach, all in a grayish-blue color. Very unusual coloration and the thought is possibly there was some sort of error in the coloration / lithograph process on a run of these cars.
For your viewing pleasure
Northwoods Flyer Accessories - Automatic Danger Signals The first example is the 2016 Automatic Danger Signal This version was cataloged from 1922 through 1927. Schuweiler lists a second version of the 2016 that is the same except for the color which is orange. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Accessories - Automatic Danger Signals
The first example is the 2016 Automatic Danger Signal
This version was cataloged from 1922 through 1927. Schuweiler lists a second version of the 2016 that is the same except for the color which is orange.
Northwoods,
Your post got me to thinking and I had to root around in the train vault to find this, but here is the orange version of the 2016.
Greg,
I really enjoy looking at the photographs of your collection! It is like a museum of classic toy trains. I often go back through your pictures for research and entertainment. It is like a Smithsonion museum in your basement. Please continue!
Jim
Some time ago I received a question through the message system here on the site about the variety of automatic Danger Signals that American Flyer produced. I had to do some digging throught boxes but I pulled together some representatives.
The 2116 (A) Automatic Danger Signal was cataloged from 1928 through 1939.
Schuweiler shows this version in the Greenberg Guide, and also a version with a green standard. My example has a solid standard.
The same number is used in the 1936-1939 catalogs, but the Automatic Danger signal has been completely re-designed.
2116 (B)
I have a second example that came to me in an original box.
.
Notice the label on the box shows that it was made by A.C. GilbertCompany in New Haven Conn.
The Automatic Danger Signal also appeared in the Wide Gauge line from 1928 through 1936. (The 1936 catalog calls it the "New Automatic Bell Danger Signal".)
This is the 4116
The label on the box lists the company being in Chicago on Halsted Street.
The only real difference between the Narrow Gauge and Wide Gauge offerings was that a narrow gauge or wide gauge piece of straight track was included with the signal.
I assume that the 1936 version of the 4116 is the same as the 2116 with the rectangular base. I don't have a boxed example to verify it however.
Here is a family photo of the Automatic Danger Signal.
Thanks for the information. I actually went for it because it had slot and tab couplers, am going to run it with my grandad's 495
Tinplatacis,
Congratulations on adding some pre war trains to your collection. There is no going back now.
I am not particularly knowledgeable about Ives trains but I do have a few in my collection. The Ives Train Society has a very good web site where I have done reading and research. It has a wealth of information. Your #70 baggage car likely comes from 1923-1925 from the brief reasearch that I did. Here is a link to an entry about the #70.
http://www.ivestrains.org/CD/O_Gauge/passengercars/60series/HTMLfiles/No60_6.htm
My guess is that a previous owner exchanged the original Ives coupler on your car for an American Flyer tab and slot coupler to allow it to run with their American Flyer trains. (There are several variations of tab and slot couplers that Flyer used. Schuweiler chronicles them in his Pre War O Gauge book)
I'm not sure which dealer has the reproduction tab and slot couplers for sale, but they show up on eBay quite frequently. You might even consider buying a junker car to get the couplers that are of the same vintage. Better yet, why not get some original or reproduction Ives "snake pull" couplers, which are also available on eBay, and add an Ives passenger consist to your collection.
Northwood and Company,
Fun news. I stepped into the world of tinplate with a Marx set, which I recently followed with a prewar Lionel set and an Ives 70 baggage car. The baggage car was equipped with prewar AF slot and tab couplers. Any idea as to A), how this might have happened since this car was produced years before the Ives bankruptcy, and B), where I might be able to acquire a set of these couplers?
Hi Jason,
I hope you have gotten the pieces of equipment to complete your doubleheader set by now. I also hope this post doesn't create additional interest and competition.
Lets play "Let's Pretend". Afterall, isn't that what "playing" with tinplate trains is all about?
So, its 1940. Gilbert is still trying to sell off the leftover stock from the Chicago era production.
The Mountain Redball "Double Header" set sold well last year
But they still have a large inventory of unpowered engines sitting in the warehose, and there are oodles of #420s sitting around too. A clever young guy in the marketing department suggests that they put a "Heritage Line" in the back of the catalog and sell off the Chicago Flyer stock. It will be one page and the top of the line offering will be:
"The Heavy Hauler" - Triple Header
I'm putting it on my "must have" list for Christmas 1940.
Oh...No....Dangit!
Everytime I'm very close to bidding on the last parts of this set I need in an eBay auction Something brings more attention to this wonderfull set.........Hopefully I still have a chance at completing my set....(I'm Kidding)
I'm working on a Double headder set that just needs a trailing truck and correct tender for the dummy, and also a set of side rods for the lead locomotive.
I have the original boxes for the cars and dummy locomotive, I'm going to post photos after I get it all cleaned up and finished.
My engines were sold as a pair but were missing both of the tenders, my freight cars came as a set & had an empty box for the dummy engine, Hope I can track down some boxes for the tenders and lead locomotive, the boxes are all in rough shape but its still neat to have them.
I wonder how many production variations there are of this set, I guess it would be hard to tell since it was sold from left over stock over the year.
I've noticed that some redball sets have the gold decals on the tenders some are stamped in silver, I have also seen a set with mixed trim, copper on the dummy and nickel on the lead engine, I always figured gilbert was cleaning out the existing stock when they released this set, This is one of my favorite sets of all time, prewar or postwar, Flyer or Lionel.
Does anyone have a copy of the paper work that came with the set? I'd love a copy or good scan of the original instruction sheet for the Double Header set.
I'd love to see more photos of the double header set. Thanks for sharing it again!
-Jason
Here is a set from 1939. Its been featured a number of times on the thread.
Double Header Set from 1939 - Narrow Gauge (O gauge)
This is early in the Gilbert era of production. For several years they were using up the existing stock from the Chicago era.
The Double Header Set, also known as the Mountain Red Ball is shown on the cover of the 1939 catalog with double the number of some of the cars that actually came in the set.
The Flyer tender body like that first appeared in 1932. The early versions had brass plates, but they soon changed to decals.
I believe someone threw the date 1934 out on the AF tender, don't know for certain. The Marx one was introduced to the line in 1938 (possibly 1939).
tinplatacis,
When you look at both of the tenders there are indeed some similarities.
Here are two photos of the Marx tender. The top one has the 3/16" trucks.
This is the American Flyer #421 tender.
It happens to have the sheet metal knuckle coupler. I think this photo and the photo from AF53 illustrate the characteristics that you point out.
My best guess is that the tenders have a common prototype somewhere in the rolling stock of the New York Central. Did the article back on the thread give any indication as to the dates that each company cataloged this tender?
AF53 Back on page 7 Northwoods posted: "This is the 403 Locomotive/Tender combination. It has the Type XX locomotive(401) 2-4-4 and a Type IV tender(421). It has nickel trim and therefore comes from early in 1940. It is Gilbert production." Here is a later 1940 version of the same Locomotive /Tender, as there is no rubber stamp below the cab window.
Back on page 7 Northwoods posted:
"This is the 403 Locomotive/Tender combination. It has the Type XX locomotive(401) 2-4-4 and a Type IV tender(421). It has nickel trim and therefore comes from early in 1940. It is Gilbert production."
Here is a later 1940 version of the same Locomotive /Tender, as there is no rubber stamp below the cab window.
Not long after the original post quoted above, someone noted the similarity to the Marx Wedhe Tender, commonly 951A. I have an example of this tender. Just gonna look at them both.
Marx
-Has the rear ridges.
-outward facing sideplate.
-Attached with tabs underneath.
-No side handrails.
-Sheetmetal tabs above for ladder tops.
-features the pair of box ridges on the top.
-Full tender.
-Single piece coal gate opening
-Unbent tender top sides.
American Flyer:
-Sideplate depressed.
-Rivited on ends to frame
-Has side handrails
-Missing ladder top tabs
-Tender filled lower than Marx example
-2 piece coal gate opening
-2 boxed ridges on top
-Rounded tender top sides.
All in all, they are a bit more similar than I had expected. The Marx design seems to be an improved version of the AF tender above (No bricks, please), or else they are based upon the same design, possibly a NYC design. I will say, though, that the trucks on the tender look a bit similar to the Marx 3/16" trucks. I do not have any examples that have these trucks, so I cannot say anything definite on the subject of them.
Oh I enjoyed it Northwood. Y'all almost made me regret my decision to collect postwar Lionel. Might keep an eye out for some of the four wheelers, though...
tinplatacis;
An index is a great idea. We had one in the early days of the thread but I got behind on keeping it current. Then there was an upgrade to the softwear and the number of entries on a page changed, so the existing index became obsolete. I've had the plan to create a new index but with over 1500 entries to try to catagorize the job seems a bit daunting.
It will be interesting to see your comparison. I hope you enjoyed your reading of the thread.
Just spent the last week or so reading the thread... Someone ought to put an index on this thing. As it is, I might try using y'alls photos to try and see if the similarities somebody noted between a flyer tender and the Marx wedge exist at some point in the near future.
It appears that the link that I posted several enteries above to information on the #750 no longer works. I replaced it with another link below.
http://thegilbertgallery.org/Accessory%20Gallery/accessories_bridges2.html
This link will take you to photos of three different color variations of the #750. Not all of them are Pre War examples.
Sturgeon-Phish It has been a while since I've posted any pics here and I have aquired some interesting additions 593 Signal Tower 748 Footbridge Track Gang 793 Union Station (non-talking) 769A 750 Tresel Bridge 768 Oil Supply Depot I really like this thread. It is like a muesum tour! Jim
It has been a while since I've posted any pics here and I have aquired some interesting additions
593 Signal Tower
748 Footbridge
Track Gang
793 Union Station (non-talking)
769A
750 Tresel Bridge
768 Oil Supply Depot
I really like this thread. It is like a muesum tour!
I have the 750 as well, but mines a blueish silver? How many variants are there of IT?
ds521Thank you so much! Looking forward to the rest of your response!
I said:
"First of all I don't think that you have a cataloged set of American Flyer equipment. I think you have a collection of AF that a family or a collector has gathered together.
Lets start with the engine. The 4670 cast iron engine was cataloged from 1931 through 1932. There are four variations of this engine."
I did a little more research in the 1931 catalog and I need to clarify my statement. It is unlikely that all of the equipment was part of one set, however the 4670 engine headed up two sets in the 1931 catalog that had your cars in them.
Set #1475 Monroe is the freight set that has your sand car and the caboose.
Set # 1477 Govenor is the passenger set that has your passenger cars.
I still can't see your photos but I can do some work just from the numbers. Is there something specific that you want information on?
...and here are the other two sets pictured in the catalog cut in Northwood's post above.
The Vanguard
...and The Clipper
Thanks alot for the information......man I hope it wont be too long before the O gauge flyer parts are back in production, I have a LOT of prewar projects just waiting for wheels.
I drove down to Hennings in Landsdale arround this time last yearand the guy behind the counter acted like they never sold o gauge prewar flyer parts?!?!?I got lucky and another guy in the back let me go through some drawers of parts, I found a bunch of pilot & trailing truck wheels and a set of large drivers for my #423 .......Just wish they still had some for a #420 guess I'll keep waiting....
.....
NationWideLines is correct. There is an announcement about MEW on their website.
http://www.henningstrains.com/
Reportedly the MEW was purchased by Hennings trains out of Pennsylvania and they plan on making the wheels sometime next year.
I would say keep an eye on ebay as new MEW wheel sets come up occaisonally. New sets can generally be purchased for between $20 and $60 a set, depending on who is selling, who is bidding, and how badly someone wants them.
I have not heard of anything that speeds up the decay process of the wheels, other than possibly heat and cold cycles. I think it is more of a problem of impurities in the alloy that the wheels were made out of.
I was wondering if anyone here could give some advise about getting a prewar O gauge flyer #420 locomotive running again.
I have a 1939 #420 for a double header set I am putting together from parts and I noticed the drive wheels have very very slight signs of the zinc cracks starting arround the edges, I am aware Model engineering works is out of business and good wheels are limited to what can be found on a used parts engine.
(Anyone want to partner up and find a way get these wheels reproduced again? I might be able to help with drawing the plans to have a shop make them.)
The wheels are still round and turn easily and I figure if I run it gently it will last awhile longer like this. The wheels & gears were very dry so I lubed them lightly and it now runs smooth and quiet.
My question is this - I usually oil my trains with either 10w40motor oil or lubriplate thin white grease....but after I oiled it I was afraid this might speed up the zinc pest problem.
Has anyone here had issues with oil causing zinc pest in early flyer wheels or speeding up the deterioration, I know moisture, heat or cold can cause the the zinc to swell. Should I get the grease & oil off my wheels or leave it be?
Any advise would be appreciated .....or even leads on finding some replacement M.E.W. wheels would help as well.
-Jason Rackawack
vintageflyer,
Very nice sets, thanks for posting the photos. I have always liked the Dixie Queen and for some reason you don't see it very often.
The Dixie Queen set#1314 1930-1931
The Dixie Queen appears in the catalogs for two years.
The catalog copy is the same both years.
It comes in the blue color that vintageflyer has shown
and a slightly different color refered to as a violet-blue
Its hard to tell in the photos above but there is a difference in the colors.
There are other differences;
The floors are different colors.
And the trucks are different.
I agree, my Frontenac is definitely a late set. The motor has no numbers, nor rubber stamp under frame, only AFL plates. I figured it to be from the "use up the plates" era that seemed to be 1932, when I thought decals were beginning to be used.
The Dixie coach and motor do not really match the baggage and observation. Photos can be deceiving. The coach is assembled by spot welding as in later versions. The motor has decals with the plate slots still present, with 3105 rubber stamped under the frame. The baggage and obs. are assembled using copper eyelets with gray floors, as in early sets. Perhaps this was a "clean out the warehouse" set.
I enjoy the detective work but Flyer prewar can be very uncertain. I enjoy everyone's input and comments as I am no expert.
Nice grouping. Your Frontenac set is a later version as it has the decals on the cars. The early sets have the white/silver rubber/heat stamped letters like your other sets. I am actually not sure that those cars are correct with the engine with brass plates. I have only seen the green cars with decals with slightly later steam engines. My Frontenac set has the heat stamped lettered cars with it.
Your Dixie Queen set is impressive. I have been searching for a nice set like that for awhile. Still looking.
NWL
Finally, I get to post this photo. Wanted to post it quite a while ago, but could'nt find a round-to-it!
The Frontenac, The Dixie Queen, The Bluebird.
Always thought the Dixie Queen should have been the Bluebird.
These are original as I found them, although the coach in the Dixie has later trucks and the lettering/numbers don't match. But the condition matches like they have been together always.
Could never pin down the exact year of production. They all appear in the 1930 catalog, but the Dixie seems to be dropped afterwards. Who knows what Flyer really did!
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