question about heat and train layouts

[Anonymous]

my question is simple i think. I have a 2 car garage that i emptied and am gonna make my train room..I have one problem possibly..the garage is seprate from the house and the other garage..it has NO airconditioning..will this cause a problem for my layout? From my trains to the trees i use is the heat gonna hurt any of it? It gets upward of 125....i myself am think i need a air conditioner out there...but is it neccessary?  thanks

[csxt30]

Zeke ; how does the humidity get out there ? I know a lot of postwar trains survived a lot of heat in storage in hot atticks but then it shouldn't be too bad if you can open a window & at least get a fan going in there a little on real hot days.  I hope others have a good idea for you too !!

Thanks, John

[chuck]

I wouldn't recommend exposing your trains/layout to conditions you wouldn't put up with yourself for prolonged periods of time.  Excessive heat (or cold) could lead to problems with lubricants, warpage, shrinkage, etc.  How hard would it be to insulate the garage and possibly add ventilation to keep the space cooler?  Also, storage is one thing, operating under these conditions is another.

[willpick]

Yes! Your trains will run better at "normal" temps. And you will too. If you can insulate the walls, and close off the ceiling(and insulate the ceiling,too), to cut down the cubic footage that the A/C will have to cool.  As long as you keep the temp below 85F, you should not see any problems with the trains.

[Anonymous]

well the garage is about 30ft from the house so i dont about adding say ventalition from the house if thats what you meant? Hmm well thats my only space for trains....and the garage is older but isulated well....

 

the humidity isnt bad...not at all like the midwest..oh boy..not even close...but there isnt really much wind blowing threw either...

 

the more i write this the more it sounds like it isnt a good time to do it....maybe a window air conditioner?  to regulate a lil cool air in there?

[chuck]

Not necessarily "ventilation" from the main house, but vents, powered or convection style, to vent excess heat.  Insulation plays a big part.  I added 4" wall bats and plasterboard and two roof vents and our garage temp swings were cut dramatically.  If I were to give up on the ceiling joist storage space I could seal off the roof area and control the "climate" even more.  The garage is attached but not heated and the swings were probably from lows in the teens in the winter and over 120 in the summer.  They now run from just above freezing (mid thrities) to  high nineties in the summer.  Still not great for trains, but not too bad for the cars and other stuff stored in the garage.

[Anonymous]

Zeke,
Nothing wrong with adding an attic fan and a large window A/C Unit, if you can do it.  I know you are on a limited budget, but I would make sure to at least put in an Attic Fan BEFORE you do any other work, this way you won't get any mess on the layout by adding it later.

You want enough force to suck the hot air out and create air flow when you have windows open, air flow is what makes you feel cooler because you will sweat, if there is no air flow, then you get and feel hotter.

You should be able to get a good high flow attic fan for under $300.00 - installed for under $500.00

[otftch]

I purchased a 10X12 handi-house.I insulated it and installed a 5000 BTU a/c unit.I keep it running at 73 degrees all year long.By not changing the temp. I eliminate the condensation and moisture problems.I live in Florida and the extreemes of hot to cold here are wild.On some days we have frost in the morning and it's too hot to move in the afternoon.I like it a little cooler so the  73 temp is right for me.It has been five years now and the only problem is that on a real cold day the trains don't respond at all to the controls(Lionel cab 1 and powerhouses)I have a small electric heater and as soon as the temp comes up everything works fine. I use tubular Lionel track and have had no rust problems either.My electric bill has been about twelve dollars more a month.I hope this helps.

                                                          Ed

[Anonymous]

thanks guys you been alot of help...i was thinking that this was my option...ok so if i left it at like 80 ish untill i went in to use it and drop the temp  when i enter for my comfort would the moving up and down hurt anything?

 

i am gonna dry wall my garage as quick as i can and get a ac unit...i think thats the best and easiest..cuz now i know it will be warmer during the winter...cuz it gets cold out there in the winter...

[otftch]

you'd probably be okay at that.Before you set up your trains set out a single edge razor blade on a table and do as you said fror a while.if the blade doesn't rust you're okay.I have a shed for my auto work also and I left blade stuck in a beam.When it didn't rust I decided to get a shed for my trains.I use a lot of the cheap blades for scraping gaskets and they rust up prety quick if left in the weather.

                            Ed

[jimhaleyscomet]

Zeke,

The key to your question is "how much humidity is in the air"?   If Redding has low humidity (I think it does) and the temperature does not regularly go above 80F or 90F then I would go with an attic fan and insulation.  If Redding does not get too hot, even a bathroom fan or two would probably do the trick.  Fans would be much cheaper to purchase and operate.  If it gets cold and snows in the winter, then just heating the garage will keep the relative humidity low (unless you pull in a snow covered car  and the snow melts in the garage).  Please note that if you have wet (30F - 50F) slushy winters the garage will be wet and probably the only way to reduce the relative humidity is with a dehumidifier and/or by heating the garage.  

If you have an A/C in your house, does water come out of the drain tube whenever the A/C runs?  In Houston it is a steady stream (can you say river?).   If water rarely comes out of your house A/C line (except perhaps right after cooking and showers) then you do not need to dehumidify your garage.

You could go ahead and insulate and sheet rock the garage, install the fan and then only add the A/C later if you need it.   By the way....a dehumidifier will do much better at drying out the garage then an a/c unit.  Using an a/c can create a problem if you cool the garage, then shut off the a/c and open a door (allowing the humidity to get in).   Water will condense on every steel surface and be very bad!   An a/c set at 80F will probably not dehumidify the garage much (if at all) in Redding...especially when it is 50F - 70F outside and raining and there is no sensible (think lights, computers, and motors) heat load.  You could add additional heat load by turning on lights but that gets expensive.

Remember that hot dry air will not rust track.  Moist air is what rusts things.  Hot air will cause the humidity already in the garage (say from a wet car) to enter the air and hot wet air is the worse but wet 50F-70F air is almost as bad.  

I hope all the above is not too confusing.  If you know a local A/C engineer (not necessarily every installer) he can help you work through this.  

Jim H 

 

[jimhaleyscomet]

Zeke,

Probably this is more than you wanted to know but......I looked up the weather in your area today and the air dew point temperature is just 47F.   Your a/c would not squeaze any water out of the air today unless the air dew point temperature rose above 50F (the temperature most a/c coils operate at)... and then it would be just a small amount of dehumidification if at all.  It would cool the garage but not dehumidify it.    

I also looked at August of 2006.  While the temperature does get hot in the afternoon (100F), it seems to cool down every evening.  The dew point is usually below 50F.  I think good insulation would be best since it would reduce your temperature swings.     

Add the a/c if you want it for cooling.  Otherwise go with the fans (preferably on a switch or timer so they do not suck in hot air during the heat of the day).  If you want dehumidification you will need a dehumidifier.  Still I do not think you will need dehumidification.  The humidity in Redding is naturally lower than the humidity I can achieve in my Houston house with an a/c.  

Jim H 

p.s. Finally a topic on this forum that I am expert in!  Yahoo! 

[Anonymous]

wow...so much info..i will say i am a lil confused...i am planning to dry wall the whole inside..thats 42 sheets..i did the measuring and stuff last night.. thats alot to do by ones disabled self..lol..so if i understand. this ...air conditionner would only harm my trains...cuz if i cool it down and leave it on a regulated thermostat at around 75 ish....then if i enter a side door and heat gets in then my trains will accumalte moisture and then rust?

 wew rarely get snow but it does get down in the lower 30's higher 20's sometimes...

this garage is for train use only i have another air condtioned garage for my cars.. 

 

this is not something i am very good at here....i

[jimhaleyscomet]

I should have been clearer.

We agree that you want to minimize the temperature swings utilizing insulation (especially above the ceiling).  Moisture should not be a problem in Redding.

In conclusion.....since Redding is so dry...using an air conditioner to make the garage will be fine (albeit expensive).  You could leave the A/C at 80F or even 90F without a problem.  It will not dehumidify, but you will not need it to since Redding is so dry.  If the garage gets moist in the winter you might need a dehumidifier as an a/c would not help then.   Still since Redding is dry, I doubt you will need a dehumidifier.

The cheaper more efficient alternative is to use insulation and/or fans.  The insulation will work to reduce extreme temperatures (which is your main concern) and would probably work without even adding fans.  Adding a fan to exhaust what heat builds up during the day could help the insulation keep your room comforatable without needing an air conditioner.   Adding an air conditioner would also work but would be more expensive.

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

okay i think i got it...i think i have a plan but i will have to check cost first...since being on a limited income...but if i put a fan on both ends of my garage and run dut work to the cieling  and have two vents which would suck the air out..would that be ok along with the drywall and the insulation?  or even one big fan on one end?

[dgraham]

I am facing a similar problem as I'll soon be moving into an unattached garage, but in Oklahoma, where we have considerable humidity at times.  I'm more concerned about that than I am about temperature swings ( altho we have those too, from occasionally near 0 to over l00)  I am doing the following to try to combat the problem.   l. Window air conditioning (Pretty reasonable at Lowes and has a dry feature as well.  2. Extra insulation   3.  Drop ceiling to let the sun generated heat stay in the "attic" as well as provide a platform for flourescent lighting (cooler) 4.  Ceiling fan - mostly for my comfort.  5. Gas heater -  for the below freezing times, and a dehumidifier - mostly for winter use when the a/c isn't running.   I'll probably monitor both temp and humidity and do what's necessary to maintain a reasonable level.

[Anonymous]

sounds like you got it all planned out pretty well...i was wondering how do you measure humidity in the air? id like to monitor the garage...and dont know what to use in their ...

 

got a link to this air conditioner?

[jimhaleyscomet]

Zeke,

Will you be able to open the big garage door if it is hot inside but cooler outside? 

I see two approaches here.   The first one is to insulate the garage (especially above the new sheetrock ceiling but also on the sides) with no open vent to the layout space.  You could put a vent on one end of the attic (above insulation) and an exhast fan on the other end of the attic to pull hot air from above the cieling and move it to the outside.  Inside your garage you could just have a separate ceiling fan for comfort when you run trains.  The garage space and layout would be totally insulated from your attic but you could drop the temperature fast by opening your big garage door.  

The second approach is to put the same big exhaust fan in the attic but put a grill opening between the attic and the layout space.  When the fan came on it would suck air from outside up through the layout space and exhaust hot air from the attic.  While this might reduce the layout space to the outside temperature faster, it has the disadvantage of possibly drawing in more dust accros the layout.  Therefor I would go for option one.

To be honest the floor of your garage will tend to keep the garage cool if you can just keep the sun from heating up the space in the afternoon.   You might not even need the attic fan if you use sufficient insulation.  I would first try just installing vents.  The ideal solution is to have high and low vents.  Vents up high (on the ends) combined with soffit vents on the overhange will create natural convection to keep the air moving.  Note: all the attic vents are above the insulation.  You could always replace one of the vents with a fan later if you need more attic ventilation.  

Jim H

 

[Anonymous]

im gonna shoot a few pics i think for you guys to see...but on each end of the garage their are 3ft high by 2ft wide vents...plus their are some low on the ground by the floor in the garage...

 i would like to add the garage is in the shade 80% of the day..two huge oaks are towering over my garage..so it doesnt see alot of sun...

at the moment i cant open the door due to my layout being there...but i think i am gonna move it so i can open it when id like....

[jimhaleyscomet]

Relative humidity meters often come in those "weather" stations that go on the wall.  There are usually three dials, one for temperature, one for barometric pressure, and one for relative humidity.  The science store or a hardware store will usually have them.  They range in cost from $15 to $200...depending on how ornate.

Jim H 

[jimhaleyscomet]

dgraham,

I bet humidity will not be a problem in the winter.  I would get a gauge and try it for a season.  You can always add the dehumidifier later.  

Jim H 

[ChiefEagles]

I just did a walkin attic [where the trains run through the wall into].  Insulated the roof [as walls were the roof] and covered it dropped the temp 20 degrees during the summer and raised it 20 in the winter.  Stuff the walls with insulation and ceiling too.  I built a shop several years ago.  Buddy told me to insulate it well.  So, suffed the walls and covered the ceiling with insulation.  Has 5V tin roof.  Never gets over 90 degrees in summer and a small electric heater keeps it above freezing in winter.  I have a boat and tractor/equipment shed with A roof that is 5V tin.  Enclosed on three sides.  Got up to 120 or more in the hot summer.  Put in an attic exhaust fan [like you put in gable end of attic] with thermostat in the south end of gable.  Have it set on 90.  Comes on and blows open a greenhouse shutter vent [to keep rain and winter wind out].  Makes a big difference to remove the trapped hot air.  Dropped the temp way down in summer.   Things like this will make a big difference.  Then when you A/C and add heat, will not take a lot.

[Anonymous]

thanks chiefand everyone else for ideas...now its all come down to doing it...and money of coures...so i am going to lowes tomorrow and home depot to price what i need...i fear its gonna run around 700 bucks...well we shall see..