hooking up Lionel mainline crossing gates, Anyone?

[msacco]

Just got these because they look nice and the item description in the catalog mentions they can be hooked up using an insulated track section. CAn't figure out how to do this and I'm not sure it can even be done.

Has anyone done this?

 

Mike S.

[bfskinner]

Mike (msacco),

I think perhaps Lionel's full title for these devices is "Mainline Auto Crossing Gates." I mention this only because without Lionel's precise nomenclature, using their search feature often produces strange results.

If so, at www.lionel.com, under Customer Service, you can find an owner's manual which gives at least two alternative methods of hook-up. Not at all sure that a simple insulated track section is among them, given that unless the bulbs themselves are self-flickering, you need something that will rapidly make and break the circuit to each lamp.

The Manual number is 71-4098-250.

[lionelsoni]

Can you describe it a little?  Is it just a gate, or crossbuck and lights?  How many terminals?

[msacco]

Bob, There's 5 wires and there's a flashing crossbuck built in. Should have looked more closely at these as they're probably too complicated to be activated by an insulated section. I might have to go the route of the infrared activator but I'm not sure. went with these because they're a lot smaller than the postwar solenoid ones but maybe i made a mistake.

   Here's a pic from the catalog:

[msacco]

Thanks BF,

I have the manual and there's no mention of the insulated section but I ordered based on catalog description. They sharp looking and I'm wondering if the 152R activator is the way to go but I don't know much about this device.

 Mike s.

[Anonymous]

I have the MTH ones,I looked in the Lionel manual and these look like they work the same way. The IR activator will work,hook it up to the activator as directed.. Or you could use an insulated rail and a spdt relay. The red and black wires go to the accessory power supply. Of the remaining 3 the common wire goes to the common blade and the other 2 go to the NO and NC contacts of the relay. I dont know the colors because they dont say. I would have to look at the 153 contacter to figure it out. They just number these 1,2, and 3 without identifing there function. . I would guess that the black is common. Connecting black to white should open the gate,black to yellow close the gate or vise versa. This accessory cannot be powered by an insulated rail by itself. the accessory always has power to it and the contacts make it fully open and fully close.

Dale Hz

[bfskinner]

Mike,

I think Dale has it. The process has to meet two basic requirements. The first detects the presence of a train. In the Manual, this function seems to be met by the pressure-sensitive contactor. It then sends a signal to the gray box, within which rests a dwarf. The detector wakes up the little man. He then flips one switch with his left hand and another one with his right. If he gets the rhythm right, the lights blink appropriately.

So I suspect that an insulated rail could serve the detection process admirably; and what happens inside the box pretty much takes care of itself.

[msacco]

thanks guys,

I can try to return these and go for zstuff's nice signals with built in optical sensors but they're a bit more.

   Or a can try to use the relay. Dale how hard is this. I'm pretty challenged electrically. What kind of relay (spec, I mean), how much will it cost, etc. Do you guys think it will really work. I'm not sure how or where the insulated rail comes into play or specifically how it should be hooked up.

   I would really like the gates to work in both directions and with the Lionel optical sensor i would have to buy two.

thanks again,

Mike S.

[lionelsoni]

For some reason, when I try to go to Lionel's "Customer Service", their web site hangs up on me.  This used to happen only with "Products".  Does anyone else have this problem?

[bfskinner]

Bob (lionelsoni),

I just got in, no problem. No clue as to your gremlins.

If you do get in, there is a wiring diagram entitled Wiring 6-14098 Mainline Auto Crossing Gates to two 6-14111 153 IR Controllers. I think it looks like an Italian supper, but you should love it. Of interest is that it gives the part numbers for two Radio Shack components which presumably can be looked up on the RS website and prices obtained, etc.

[lionelsoni]

I got in.  I had to right-click on the Lionel links, then click on "Open Link".  Clicking directly on the links doesn't work for me.

I found the manual, which doesn't have nearly enough information to figure out what to do.  If it were mine, I would surely gut it and start over.

[bfskinner]

Bob and Mike,

Not sure we are talking about same document. Go to Customer Service > Parts List and Pictorial Diagrams > type in Crossing Gate > locate Mainline Auto Crossing Gate > hit "Click here for all documents...."

You should find an elaborate hook-up diagram that utilizes a Radio Shack Bridge Rectifier and a DPDT Relay.

Hope this helps. 

[lionelsoni]

Yes, I found that and the wiring diagram from the manual.  Unfortunately, there is no explanation of what is inside the thing or of what the various terminals are for, just where to run the wires for use with a 153C and the IR controller.  That's not enough to know how to use it with a control rail, except for using a relay to imitate a 153C as Dale suggested.

[Anonymous]

While one or two short insulated track sections will work they don't allow for very realistic activation of crossing gates and lights.  Depending on their spacing they either drop the gates too late to be realistic or in the case of a short train ( or single engine ) will raise the gates momentarily during mid crossing. 

Ideally, if you could insulate a large length of outside rail on either side of the crossing gate ( say 8-10 feet ) it will allow continuous operation of the signal no matter what length of train being run or in which direction it is run. 

About the only unrealistic downside to this method is that the gates will remain activated for a short while until the end of the train passes off the insulated rail.  It's an acceptible compromise as compared to the expense of equipping with IRS's, IMHO.

I would hope the gates in question have built in flasher units for the lights.  Kind of a useless accessory for the price if they're not equipped as such.

Bruce Webster

[4kitties]

OK, are we all in agreement that if the Lionel gates will work with a 153C contactor, then they will work with a relay?  If so, then I would be happy to help Mike get his gates hooked up, if he will contact me off-forum.  I, like Dale, run my MTH gates with relays, as well as my Walthers gates.  This setup works fine with isolated rails.

Joel

[lionelsoni]

Sure.  I didn't think there was any question about that.  The relay setup is fairly straightforward:

Use a power supply, AC or DC, of a voltage and current rating suitable for the coil of the relay you have.  Connect one side of the supply to the (non-isolated) outside rails.  Connect the relay coil between the control (isolated) rail and the other side of the supply.

Connect the red and blue wires of the crossing gate to an AC accessory voltage, 12 to 18 volts.  Connect the black wire to the relay contacts' common.  Connect the white wire to the normally closed contact.  Connect the yellow wire to the normally-open contact.

[msacco]

Dale, Joel, and Bob,

Thanks guys for doing a lot of ground work for me here. I'm still not sure whether it's easier for me to try and return these and go for the zstuff signal with a built in IR sensor.

   I'm just afraid this might be beyond me especially knowing exactly what components to purchase ie. relays.

   Joel I appreciate the offer to contact you offline and I'm going to thing about what to do next.

 

thanks,

Mike S.

[Anonymous]

thanks guys,

I can try to return these and go for zstuff's nice signals with built in optical sensors but they're a bit more.

   Or a can try to use the relay. Dale how hard is this. I'm pretty challenged electrically. What kind of relay (spec, I mean), how much will it cost, etc. Do you guys think it will really work. I'm not sure how or where the insulated rail comes into play or specifically how it should be hooked up.

   I would really like the gates to work in both directions and with the Lionel optical sensor i would have to buy two.

thanks again,

Mike S.

Mike

Can you make an outside insulated rail? Do you run conventional or command? What type of transformer?

Dale Hz 

[lionelsoni]

If you want to use an AC relay, you won't find much of a selection under 24 volts.  However, you can get plenty of 24-volt stuff at an HVAC distributor.  The Steveco 90-294Q is a reasonable SPDT (form C) relay for about $8.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1611689053

They will also have small 24-volt transformers:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1613556744

But you could certainly use the output from a type-Z and maybe the 21 volts of a postwar ZW.

If you want to use DC, there are lots of relays rated at 12 volts, at Radio Shack, for example.  You could use an HO or N power supply, or apply a bridge rectifier to the coil of a 12-volt DC relay and run it on about the same AC voltage.

[msacco]

To everyone who replied here, thank a lot. I called Train express and they will accept a return on these. For simplicity sake, I opted to go with Z-stuff IR set that can also be hooked up using insulated rail. Here's the link if anyone's interested. A bit more than I wanted to spend but CTT gave these a great review a while back and I had forgotten about them.

http://www.z-stuff.net/DZ-1010Set.htm

 

Mike S.

[4kitties]

While one or two short insulated track sections will work they don't allow for very realistic activation of crossing gates and lights.  Depending on their spacing they either drop the gates too late to be realistic or in the case of a short train ( or single engine ) will raise the gates momentarily during mid crossing. 

I agree that an isolated rail with a relay alone doesn't act very prototypical.  So I use a grade crossing control circuit very similar to the one that was featured in "the other publication" a few years back.  It consists of 2 relays and a built-in power source.  With it the gates drop well before the approaching train, but raise immediately after the train clears the crossing.  It's bidirectional and with a  few diodes added in, it doesn't interfere with the block wiring on my Atlas O signals.  I haven't run a single engine through it to see how it responds but it sure looks great with a regular train.

Joel