Bell ringer Tender, help needed

[Fred Bear]

I bought a bell ringing tender from Ebay 6403B I think, that rings, but is not real strong. Does anyone have a line on schematics for that beast, or does anyone know a fix for the weakness in the ringer? Thanks much, Jake

[dwiemer]

Have you checked with the Lionel web site? They have a section under "Customer Service" that has drawings of most of the Lionel Line, after Post war that is. Otherwise, hang on, I am sure someone here can help.
Dennis

[Fred Bear]

Thanks much, we'll see what gives on here. Regards, Jerry

[jefelectric]

Fred, Are you sure about the number? I am far from a postwar expert but I thought all the 64 series numbers were freight cars.

[Fred Bear]

No, the number might be 6304B. I'll have to check it out with my specks on! Thanks, Jake

[jefelectric]

bump

[Fred Bear]

What does bump mean?

[SPFan]

Olsen's lists a 6403B bell ringer but the part listed for it is a rubber stamp. If this is a slope back tender it might use the same part that the 622 NW2 switcher uses to ring the bell which is cam gear driven off the wheels. That part is available but you might be able to fix it by adding a little epoxy to the cam that so the hammer is pulled back further.

Pete

[Fred Bear]

Thanks much, I do appreciate the help, Best Regards, Jake

[martinden]

The mechanism in the 6403B is different from the 622, which has a mechanical clapper, though the bell itself is the same part. David Doyle says the tender has an "electrically operated bell." I don't have one of these, but I read something somewhere a while back (years), and if memory serves, it has a selenoid controlled by a bi-metallic strip (similar to the mechanism in the 455 oil derrick).

[Anonymous]

6403B is the correct number for the Bell Tender although 2304B may be an alias. It was the tender for 1656 0-4-4 switch engine from 1948-49. ("Bi-focal error" corrected.")

Olsen's has some info in their Library under locomotives (for the 1656) and 2304 (for the tender.) The tender has a light aft, and features two wires-with-plugs that attach to the rear of the engine. One wire is an additional ground necessitated by the short wheelbase of the loco. Presumably the other is for the lamp and bell-ringing mechanism.

You can find some information under "Whistles and Tenders," but there seems to be more under "Locomotives."

One needs to check out several links, as no single one that I could find gives the entire picture.

"Martinden" seems to have the mechanism right -- the data sheets refer to a "thermostatic assembly" for the bell.

Just so everyone knows what we are talking about, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-POSTWAR-1656-STEAM-SWITCHER-W-6403B-TENDER-NICE_W0QQitemZ6066387470QQcategoryZ4146QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It has several views, but will only be "up" briefly to the general public. One can clearly see the bell tucked in between the trucks on a view from the bottom, and the two plugs that connect the tender to a jack on the rear of the loco.

Jake, a post containing the word "bump" is a device sometimes used by members to keep a thread "alive" by "bumping" it back to the top of the queue, even though that particular member doesn't have anything new to add, but would be interested in seeing further comments by others.

wolverine49

[martinden]

The 2403B is the earlier version of the tender with the electro-magnetic (coil) coupler; when the magnetic coupler was introduced in 1948, the number was changed to 6403B. The 2403B came with the 1665 switcher; for 1948, the motor was revised and the number changed to 1656; coincidentally, the tender coupler and number changed. And, finally, the body was modified; the2403B had a seperate, bakelite coal pile, while most 6403Bs had the coal pile cast integrally with the body. (Though some had carry-overs of the earlier body.)

[martinden]

Jake, I'd take the body off, connect some test leads or put it on the track, and observe the striker's operation. Does it seem to move well and hit the bell hard enough? Or is it sluggish? Try tapping the bell with a screwdriver; does it ring well?

If there's nothing obviously wrong with the striker, my guess (based on experience with my 622) is that the bell is fastened too tightly to the mounting bracket. If the bell's not free to vibrate, you get a dull "thudish" feeble tone. The 622 has a spacer between the bell and the bracket.

As Wolverine said, Olsen's library has parts lists for both the 2403B and the 6403B (look under 1656 and 1665), but no exploded diagrams. The parts lists show a "bell assembly", but there's no breakdown into the specific items in the "assembly." I suspect that there's supposed to be a spacer of some sort. (The spacer is shown on the 622 exploded diagram -- 1949 version)

Try loosening the screw holding the bell. My guess is that at some point over the years, the bell in your 6403B got mounted too tightly, and that's interfering with its sound. The spacer was missing from mine, and the bell wouldn't ring -- just "thud". I cut a bit of cardboard (from a cereal box) and made a hole in it for the screw. Installed it -- lo & behold -- pretty good sound from the bell. Have planned for the last 15 years to replace the cardboard with something else, but it's (of course) still there. Sounds pretty good, though I think the timbre could still be a little better. Someday I'll try for an improved spacer.

But this is just a guess -- maybe the striker isn't working right. Diagnostically, it almost has to be either (1) striker doesn't hit hard enough; or (2) the bell doesn't respond, due IMO most likely to a problem with the mounting. It does, however, cross my mind that maybe for one reason or another, the bell has just lost it's tone. (Perhaps due to bad storage over the years?) I'd suggest some "foolin' around" and experimenting.

[SPFan]

Just to add what Martinden said, it was not uncommon for a previous owner to either remove the bell or lessen the ring. The novelty can wear thin in short order.

Pete

[Fred Bear]

The bell tone is good, I'll try & loosen the bell a bit. I don't see the hammer striking the bell all that hard. Is there a way to make the selenoid hit with more force? Thanks, Jake

[lionelsoni]

Could the problem be that you're running it too slow? Lionel may have assumed that there would be more track voltage than you might be giving it. If you can get it to ring adequately in neutral with the voltage turned up, it is possible that you can improve the situation by dropping some of the motor voltage, so that the bell has more voltage for the same motor speed than it did originally.

[Anonymous]

Jake,

Try cleaning the solenoid plunger with alcohol or contact cleaner so that the plunger moves easily. You could also stretch the return spring that is behind the plunger. This will cause the plunger to strike the bell harder.


Jim

[lionelsoni]

It might make things worse. By moving the initial plunger position closer to its equilibrium position in the energized solenoid, it reduces the force that the solenoid exerts on it. Have you tried this, Jim? It might be hard to put the spring back to its original shape if it doesn't work.

[Anonymous]

Bob,

I have never tried this, but I figured it would result in more sound.


Jim

[Anonymous]

many years ago I had one of the old electronic coupler versions. the bell didn't ring in rapid succession because the circuit was controlled by a nichrome wired heat contact. when it cooled down the circuit closed and the clapper struck the bell. w the circuit closed the nichrome heated, bending the contact reed and breaking the circuit. ergo, it cooled down again to restart the cycle. but the heat takes a while to dissipate, so the sound is nothing like a modern truck backing up.

[ken w.]

grumpy4, I need the 'wiring diagram' for this tender. I know the center jack is simply ground but where is the correct location for the 'left - side' jack wire with-in the tender? Thanks,Ken w.