Fried My Gateman

[Anonymous]

Anyone got the definitive wiring scheme for wiring a lionel auto gateman to work with an insulated track section (before I cook another one)? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

FYI - I am using C post of PW ZW for power and tubular track. thanks

[MartyE]

Here is how I do it...

[MartyE]

For some reason the wires coming from the A Handle didn't sho but these would hook to a normal section of track just as always for train power. The other handle in this case "C", the Hot or C post would go directly to the gateman shed. The common for the gateman is derived from the isolated section of track. When the metal wheels and axles cross over this section they tie the gateman's common to the transormer via the track power common.

Does this make sense?

[Anonymous]

MartyE, there are 3 connections inside the gateman house. Do you have a more detailed explanation of the wiring connections in there? Thanks

[MartyE]

Hmmm...only 2 on mine. Who's make is it? What era?

[fwright]

I think (my PW gateman is in storage) there is a third connection for the light which stays on continuously. Best bet is to take off bottom and check and label wiring connections. One wire to solenoid, one to light, and the third to both. The common connection goes to the fixed voltage or center rail (backwards from how you would think). The light goes to common return, and the solenoid goes to the insulated track section.

I seriously doubt you fried the gateman. The solenoid is pretty tough, and would have to be left on for a considerable period of time before it would overheat. Get the wiring connections wrong could cause a short circuit to the transformer but could not apply excessive voltage to the gateman. The only harm wrong connections could do is leave the solenoid on full time - was the gateman standing outside the whole time?

If there is a mechanical binding of the mechanism, and you crank up the voltage to 24V to compensate, and then leave the solenoid on - well, you should smell Lionel's built-in smoke escaping from the solenoid before the magic is all gone. :-) Other than that could be a broken wire (open) or a short in the solenoid itself (check resistance of the coil, should be at least 15 ohms).

yours in accessorizing
Fred W

[MartyE]

Mines downstairs...only 2 post. I guess some may have had a light inside or on a pole?

[Anonymous]

Nope. Fried for sure. wire from connection post to solenoid burned in two. Will try and solder a jumper in there to see if I can get it going again. Diagram on Lionel website shows how to wire but I cannot determine which connector on the Gateman itself is which. Also, can anyone enlighten me on why the diagram would show the ground wire (other than the one from the insulated section), going to one of the outside rails and then back to the "Fixed voltage power source" instead of straight back to the "fixed voltage power source" ground connection?

http://www.lionel.com/products/productnavigator/InstructionManuals/71-2840-250.pdf

[wrmcclellan]

dkv,

In the Lionel diagram you provide for the insulated track section, the fixed power source supplies power to accessory common terminal so that power is fed to the solenoid coil and to a lamp in the accessory. The extra common wire to the track lock-on is to provide a common reference with the overall track common so the insulated section works properly. .

The insulated rail completes the circuit to common to activate the solenoid.

Olsen's has the internal wiring diagram, but the link is not working for some reason.

Here is a link to the Nutcraker version, but the connections to light, common, and solenoid are the same regardless of PW or Modern era. Be careful with the Lionel drawing. It shows 2 transformer connections. This is confusing. The one to the right and using the switch (vs 153C contactor) is an ALTERNATE way to wire the solenoid.

http://www.lionel.com/products/productnavigator/InstructionManuals/73-4164-250.pdf

Regards,
Roy

[martinden]

The diagram at Lionel's site is about worthless.

Don't have graphics capability, so here it is in words:

Looking down from the top, door at the bottom of this "mental diagram" ... Two clips near door, at the bottom; the third clip at the upper right.

Bottom left clip: Goes to "C" on your ZW;
Bottom right clip: Goes to "U" (on a ZW) or to the "overall" outside rail;
Upper right clip; Goes to the insulated outside rail section.

There's a diagram on page 723 of your Greenberg's Repair and Operating Manual, using an RW transformer (under "OCS and OSS Track Sections").

Just incidentally, note that with a single-train transformer (RW, 1033, etc.) "U" goes to the center rail, and "A" or "B" will be the outside rail connection.

[Anonymous]

OK, wired it per martinden's guidance (after repairing the burned in-two coil wire and testing it off line). When I ran a train accross insulated section the wheels on the train and accompanying cars sparked severly and the gateman fried again!! This is exactly what happened before. I have (had) two of these on my layout and the other one (wired the same way) works fine.

Could I have a bad insulated section?? The arcing is pretty bad and scorches the top of the "insulated" rail.

Thanks

[MartyE]

Could it be the selinoid is bad? I am suspicious now because you say that it is wired like the other one on your layout. Have to tried it just with a transformer by applying power to the terminals on the gateman?

[Anonymous]

Some of the confusion in this thread (and a similar one that is still active) may stem from the fact that Lionel made at least three Gateman accessories: 45, 45N, and 145.

The first two are essentially all metal and have TWO contact posts on the base, left side facing the door, near the rear.

The 145 has a lot of plastic, including the house and roof. It has no connector-posts on the base. Instead it has THREE clips under the roof.

The Olsenstoy site lists the 45 but the link remains broken. However, the link for the 145 is operational as of this morning:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=253

Perhaps this will help, as I believe the item in question is a 145.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

wolverine49, thanks for the link. It is a 145. It does offer some more detail but, it doesn't clear up why one is working fine and the other fries itelf. As I noted earlier, there is a noticeable difference in that the insulated track section arcs like mad when a train passes through it. I have 3 other sections like this on the layout with various accessories connected to them and none of them have this problem. I suppose I could hook up a different accessories to this section and rule out any problem associated with the section itself. Hope I don't fry something else.

[fwright]

I suspect a shorted solenoid - insulation has broken down between wires and/or now bare wires in the coil are touching metal frame of accessory.

Try measuring resistance of coil - should be more than 10 ohms. Measure the resistance of the coil in your known good one for a comparison - I am guessing normal resistance of a good coil should be around 15 ohms.

Remove the light bulb and see if resistance changes. If it does, it means the accessory is mis-wired internally - the light bulb and coil need to be on separate feeds.

Then start measuring resistance at the wiring terminals and work your way back to the solenoid by itself. If the resistance is less than 10 ohms at the terminals but more at the coil itself, short is in the wiring leading to the coil. If resistance is low and the same at all points, the coil itself is shorted.

Any further trouble-shooting should be conducted wiring directly to a transformer - eliminates track wiring errors/problems as a factor. Use 10-14 volts for testing and tuning, and don't keep the solenoid "on" for more than a few seconds during testing if you can help it.

My theory: the coil could have originally gotten burned (insulation broken down to over heating) with a car sitting on the insulated track for a long period of time. Now a short in the coil causes the wiring to the coil to melt first, acting as a fuse for the high current (not necessarily a bad thing).

Hope this helps and makes sense.

yours in accessorizing
Fred W

[MartyE]

I would think if it was the track section itself even without a train on it there would be a problem. Seems to me something in the gateman or the wiring that is drawing excessive current. Although not being there and directly evaluating this is just a guess.

[Anonymous]

I guess I should have said that I had tested the unit (before the first frying and after the repair) by connecting wires directly to the transformer terminals and then then touching them to the contactors on the unit. Everything appeared to work normally. However, when I wired it up tho the insulated section and to the terminal strip/bus bars for the ZW "C" power and "U" common.......POOF!! When the train ran through the insulated section it arced like a big dog, scorched the insulated rail and smoked the solenoid wiring between the soldered connection to the contactor post and the solenoid coil itself. Did this to me twice now ...... the second time I had the connections as :

Looking down from the top, door at the bottom of this "mental diagram" ... Two clips near door, at the bottom; the third clip at the upper right.

Bottom left clip: Goes to "C" on your ZW;
Bottom right clip: Goes to "U" (on a ZW) or to the "overall" outside rail;
Upper right clip; Goes to the insulated outside rail section.

Still scratching my head and ready to put a crossing gate at risk just to satisfy my curiosity.

[Anonymous]

Update. Wired a crossing gate to this connection and all worked fine. Problem must be with the 145 gateman itself. Also, has anyone experienced a track voltage drop in the vicinity of an insulated section with several accessories connected to it? My trains are hitting a certain section of my track and slowing down. This particular section has an insulated section in it and a gateman and crossing gate are working off this one insulated section. Any thoughts?

[fwright]

Looking at both your posts, I see 2 things.

1) Your 145 gateman probably has a bare wire contacting the frame when assembled/placed on the layout. I would try making sure all 3 connections, including both the light and the solenoid work correctly and together on the bench. This would eliminate internal mis-wiring as a possible cause. Your symptons (arcing and burning in the insulated section and burning of the solenoid wire) sure read like some kind of short circuit in the gateman.

2) I suspect a poor electrical connection to the non-insulated outside rail of your insulated track as the cause of the slow down. Try connecting a feed directly to the non-insulated rail. The center rail is the next step. Unless you have your ZW fairly loaded already, adding an accessory should not cause a noticeable slow down of your train. The extra resistance of a loose/poorly conducting track pin could cause a voltage drop when the load increases.

Wish I could actually see this one to be of more help

Fred W

[Anonymous]

Thanks. I will try the extra feeder to the outside non-insulated rail.

[pbjwilson]

Had to respond to this just because I like the topic "FRIED MY GATEMAN".