traditional vs classic

[Anonymous]

I originaly asked this on the Model RR forum, they sent me here. Getting into model rr, not in a serious way, just want some thing to run around the Christmas tree. I have the Keystone starter set on order, as this met my two requirements, steam power, and freight. The only down side to the set is that it only has 3 cars, so I made a trip to a Lionel dealer that is fairly near by to pick up a few more cars. Here's the problem, I'm a little confused when it comes to traditional vs standard. My take, and correct me if I'm wrong is that both will run on fast track, but that standard may require larger turning radius's. Where is confusion sets in how do I tell the difference between the two. I didn't see the boxes marked as traditional or standard. Also while at the shop they referred to semiscale and scale. I take it that traditional is the same as semi scale and that standard is the same as scale. They also had a set in the LionMaster series, is this another name for standard. So my questions are, what is the best way to tell traditional from standard. Given that I'm running a Christmas tree set up, does it really matter. Can I run standard with my traditional or will it just look wrong. Also does anyone know of any Lionel specific forums.

[BR60103]

bob:
Have a look at the Lionel catalog. They have everything labelled in there.
Fastrack has a larger radius than the traditional O gauge track. (36" vs 31") If you look at the catalog, they show minimum radius for most items. I see that the 18" passenger cars require 54" curves, and the standard steam locos do as well, while the GG1 needs 72". If you're going to use the Fastrack 36" curves, you need to run some of the stubbier cars. (remember that this is the same size curve as an HO train set.)
The standard cars may or may not look wrong with your trains. Most of the freight cars may be a touch longer.

[Chris F]

With TrainMaster Command Control and RailSounds, the Keystone Super Freight is a pretty nice starter set!

You can access Lionel catalogs at www.lionel.com . In the 2005 Volume 2 catalog, check out the Pennsylvania Flyer Operating Freight Expansion Pack (#30003), the section on Traditional freight cars, and for fun, the section on Operating cars.

In general, Standard O (Lionel's term for scale-size) cars don't look good running with Traditional (Lionel's term for smaller-than-scale) cars. Traditional cars typically are shorter than scale to handle tighter curves, but, to me, the main reason the two don't mix well is height.

LionMaster is Lionel's term for a locomotive that can handle tighter diameter curves than a true scale model, but includes a lot of details that are typical of scale models. Think of a LionMaster loco as Traditional size with scale details.

I'm not aware of any Lionel-specific forums, but I don't think you'll find this forum lacks for Lionel experts.[:)]

[prewardude]

Standard O is scale detailed (and usually larger) than "traditional sized" rolling stock. The traditional stuff is basically an interpretation of the real thing, whereas Standard O stuff is a scale model of the real thing. Your train set uses traditional sized rolling stock, I believe. My advice would be to check out a Lionel catalog to familiarize yourself with the differences. Check out Lionel's Website: www.lionel.com

Regards,
Clint

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the help. I guess what you are telling me is that the only way to tell the difference is to either reference the catalog, or to make a guess comparing the cars size to another car. This probably gets easier with time, though I'm not shure why Lionel deosn't mark the boxes "traditional" or "standard". Do the other manufacturers, such as MTH, also have 2 different O-scale sizes. If so are they comperable to Lionel sizes, will a MTH tradaitional size look right with a Lionel traditional

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bob5820

Thank you for the help. I guess what you are telling me is that the only way to tell the difference is to either reference the catalog, or to make a guess comparing the cars size to another car. This probably gets easier with time, though I'm not shure why Lionel deosn't mark the boxes "traditional" or "standard". Do the other manufacturers, such as MTH, also have 2 different O-scale sizes. If so are they comperable to Lionel sizes, will a MTH tradaitional size look right with a Lionel traditional

Most train makers offer both sizes, and you'll soon be able to tell just by looking at them. For your set, look for "traditional", "semi-scale", or "O27" on the box. Most, if not all, the neat "operating cars", like the milk car, are in your size. Joe

[otftch]

Most MTH rail-king cars,which equate to Lionel traditional cars are noticeably larger .
Ed

[MartyE]

Lionel has some nice "expansion packs" that come with more cars, track and some small accessories. I think one of these would do well with your set. As a matter of fact they have a Penssy pack #6-30003 with an operating log dump car, tanker, and box car. Also comes with some misc maint items and road signs, and track.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bob5820

Thank you for the help. I guess what you are telling me is that the only way to tell the difference is to either reference the catalog, or to make a guess comparing the cars size to another car. This probably gets easier with time, though I'm not shure why Lionel deosn't mark the boxes "traditional" or "standard". Do the other manufacturers, such as MTH, also have 2 different O-scale sizes. If so are they comperable to Lionel sizes, will a MTH tradaitional size look right with a Lionel traditional

You can use pricing as a guide, if you don't have a catalog. Traditional cars typically range from $19 -$35, depending on the features. A new, traditional sized reefer, gondola, flatcar, or boxcar is usually found for approx. $20 at a train store. A tradional operating searchlight car would be closer to $30. The Standard (scale) stuff is more expensive. In some cases, much more expensive.

Jim

[Anonymous]

On traditional versus scale-sized trains, the answer isn't quite simple, because there is a long history of inconsistency in the size of Lionel O gauge trains - but this is part of the fun and richness of the hobby. And the inconsistency is part of the charm. There is not even a consistent pattern to the terms used to describe the different sizes of trains.

And actually, in terms of Lionel history - and especially in terms of the postwar Lionel golden age - there is a very strong tradition of running bigger, scale-sized or near scale-sized engines, with traditional, smaller-sized rolling stock.

This isn't just a historic fact, it is actually part of the secret of why so many children in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, were captivated by Lionel. The engines seemed even more impressive when running down the track, against the background of smaller train cars.

Lionel trains, in a way, have never been consistent. The track is really 1/45 of real scale, whereas the so-called *scale* O gauge trains are 1/48. (Lionel's first O-72 engine in 1934, was actually built to 1/45 proportions, though many people have forgotten that.)

And whereas a layout of full scale trains running on O-72 track, are consistent with each other, there are some strong reasons in favor of O-31 trains with their less exact proportions.

Among them are the fact that, to many people, the trains look faster and more impressive running those tight curves. The real power of O gauge is perhaps that even though the trains may not be exact models, their thundering operation may be more like *real railroading* than any other scale, either larger or smaller. It is something to do with the inertia and momentum of the O gauge locomotive, that adds up to simply magic. And some people feel further, that the magic is maximized in O-31, as the tight curves can enhance the impression of speed and momentum. Also, with O-31, you can fit two running trains on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

It isn't simple to categorize Lionel products, either historically or in the present. Many *traditional* locomotives, like the F3 or GP9 diesels, are actually pretty close to scale-sized, even though they run on O-31 or even O-27 track. And many others, like the LionMaster O-31 locomotives, are really pretty huge and are more in line with scale-sized rolling stock, and fit them better rather than the traditional sized rolling stock, despite what Lionel says in the catalogs.

Even Lionel gets confused about how to relate their different products. And hobbyists, for their part, have always felt free to run different *sizes* together in various ways.

For most of Lionel's O Gauge history since 1915, nearly all products made by Lionel for O Gauge, ran on O-31 track. This is true of everything made in the great postwar years, even the huge postwar 773 scale-sized Hudson. Lionel made O gauge trains that strictly needed wide radius track, only briefly in 1934-42, and then didn't do this again until the end of the 1980s as part of the newer, recent boom for scale railroading. These days it's maybe fifty-fifty in terms of product. But I think there's a slow trend back to O-31 and the Lionel roots.

Note that it's fairly easy to run even many quite huge scale diesels on O-31 track, because of the smaller wheels. With steam engines, and their big driving wheels, it's the scale steam engines that generate most of the need for wide radius track.

As a practical matter, your basic decisions, as a toy train operator of Lionel or other O gauge products, are on three questions:

Are you going to mainly use the more classic Lionel O-31 regular radius track (or something close to that, either O-27 or O-36)?

Secondly, do you prefer the *traditional sized* rolling stock, including the famous 6464 boxcars - or will you bypass that tradition, to go with *scale sized* rolling stock? Note that you can use nearly-all scale sized rolling stock and still keep to an O-31 track configuration.

Thirdly, what kind of passenger cars do you like? Even within an O-31 configuration, there are different sizes of passenger cars, which each have their respective fans, like the smaller 2400 series cars with more detail, or the larger aluminum cars.

Every train operator goes for their own solution to the various issues on what trains to operate. Here's five different scenarios:

(1) Scale sized trains, O-72 track. You can run everything, things are consistent, but you need a lot of room. Some people say you miss the excitement and speed-sensation of O-31-style tight-radius operation, and also you may miss the tradition of operating things like the non-scale 6464 boxcars, which are not *consistent* with scale trains.

(2) O-31 trains but with large-as-possible engines, and nearly all scale sized rolling stock. This is a popular solution today for many people with Lionel-type products, and is also the basic pathway of the MTH Railking and Williams and many K-Line trains as well, where the engines mostly all run on O-31, but the boxcars and such are scale-sized and look right behind the big engines. This solution matches a good degree of consistency with reasonable operating space. Still misses the 6464 boxcars and traditional Lionel rolling stock though.

(3) Postwar-style operation with aluminum passenger cars, using larger scale-sized engines for O-31 track, along with the traditional 6464 style boxcars and other traditional rolling stock. The virtues of great tradition, like the heart of the Lionel golden age, but the inconsistency is visible just as it was in the 1950s. You have the 15 inch aluminum passenger cars bigger than the freight cars, and many engines are bigger than the rolling stock.

(4) Postwar-style operation with the smaller 2400-type passenger calls (often now called O-27 passenger cars). This is my personal favorite for Lionel operation. Once again the great Postwar tradition is here, you operate both big scale-sized F3 diesels and 6464 boxcars, and this way the passenger cars are roughly consistent with the freight cars and look like they belong on the O-31 track. But the inconsistency shows, it's not scale; but it's true Lionel, true tradition, and I think a great show of O gauge operation, maximizing the character both of traditional rolling stock and Lionel's historic track.

(5) O-27 sizing of trains on a more consistent basis. This is also popular with some operators, and not just those using the extremely narrow O-27 style of track. This is O gauge railroading, built around the non-scale but beautiful 6464 boxcar and other Lionel traditional rolling stock, also sold by MTH in that smaller size as I think the *Rugged Rails* line and by K-Line as *Track 19*. But here, the operator limits choice of the locomotives to those that are smaller and more consistent with the 6464 style boxcar - smaller steam engines and the traditional Lionel Alco, for example. (In the early days of the MTH Railking line, MTH downsized the locos to this O-27-Lionel-Alco-type-size, but found they didn't sell as well as bigger O-31 trains, so they changed the general Railking size to be more on the line of No. 2 above - bigger but still running on O-31 track.) This O-27 route, with perhaps a Lionel Alco and postwar-style steam turbine as its locomotives, is an interesting way to approach O gauge - more consistent than choice 3 or 4, but consistent around the traditional rolling stock and 6464 boxcars, instead of around the big locomotives.

A lot to choose from, but don't worry - you never go wrong with toy trains. You have a lot of fun deciding things, and if you eventually decide to go in a different direction, you just sell your trains and get some new ones.

[lionelsoni]

The term "radius" has been used here; but the numbers given are generally the nominal diameter, which is the customary way of describing Lionel-style track. For the new Fastrack, the 36-inch diameter is to the center rail. For all other track it is to the outside of the ties.