How flexible is water?

[FJ and G]

This weekend I started work on a harbor layout that is half water and will contain some cool scratchbuilt ships when finished. I'll post photos in about 2 weeks.

For the water, I read a back issue of Model Railroader (2004?) and there was a description on how to make water using Realistic Water product and a wave product.

The article stipulated that the layout MUST be sturdy and flat or it would be subject to cracking.

I'm going to be putting down a layer of Envirotex (epoxy?). However, I'm worried about it cracking and wondered how flexible it is. Or would perhaps resin be better? Or maybe just glossy paint? Or varnish? etc

Why worry about cracking?

Because I'm doing a layered layout that will have 3 more layouts above it, all tied together with steel uprights (but wood shelving). The added weight may imperceptibly cause the lowest level to buckle just a wee bit.

I'd supply you photos of what I'm talking about but my fiancee took the camera with her to visit her parents in Korea.

Thanks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, Envirotex is fairly brittle once cured. It really does need a solid substraight. How large of an area are you planning to cover with water, and how thick?

[FJ and G]

Hi Elliot.

3X4 foot area about 3/8 inches thick.

[wrmcclellan]

Dave,

When you drink it, water is very flexible. When you belly flop into it, it is very inflexible.

You may wi***o look at some of the articles where paints are used to create the illusion of depth. Then you cover the painted area with a thin layer of normal clear polyureathane. As Elliot says - Envirotex (and many of the other modeling "water products") is not flexible and sometimes cracks just due to temperature extremes (as we have seen in our warehoused portable layout).

Looking forward to the results!
Roy

[selector]

David, if you use a 5/8" plywood shelving, or layout/shelf surface, you should not have to worry about flexing unless your joists are over 3' apart...and unless you are intending to get up on the surface now and then.

I used a two-part epoxy like Enviro-Tex, but made in Quebec. Once I had my water course dammed at the open ends, since it crossed from one side of my layout to the other, and had poured a powdered wood filler (mixed with water) over the water bed, and spread it thin to form a 'pan' for the epoxy, it worked very well.

So, the plywood adds decent rigidity, the wood filler spread over the lake bed and about 1/2" up the banks, and then painted to look like deep water, worked very well once the epoxy was poured. The wave effect is accomplished by pouring Mod Podge, or Matte Medium over the set epoxy in a thin layer. Then, by gently blowing across the surface with a hair drier, always with the hair drier in the same orientation, with a warm setting and the drier held at 45 deg about 8" off the surface.

Hope that helps.

[Big_Boy_4005]

That's a pretty big area Dave.

My experience comes from a pour that was even larger than the one you have planned. The club I was in did a section of the Mississippi River. The pour was done over 3/4" plywood, and is still there more than 15 years later. No cracks, just scratches from where the public likes to touch it.

I'm not sure if thick foam would make a good substraight.

There are ways of using other materials like plexiglass to simulate water. I wonder what would happen if you put a thin layer of Envirotex over a piece of 1/4" Lexan?

[Dr. John]

To follow up on Big Boy's suggestion of plexiglass, I remember an article about a model harbor railroad with a large waterfront where the builder used the plastic panels that are found in shower doors. They are partially opaque and have texture similar to waves. He used acrylic paints and gloss medium to add color. The magazine photos certainly looked convincing. He found his shower door at a salvage yard and paid a couple of bucks for it.

[Anonymous]

I used a product called POUR-ON that can be purchased at art supply stores. It is a two part pouring resin that sets in about 6-8 hours. No smell at all.

In my experience, it will not crack and you can mix acrylic paints into it wet and it sets fine. Test your curing though before you pour a river.

I have even used it to create a portable lake, by pouring some on wax paper and letting it set that way. When dry, simply peel off the wax paper and you have a nice 'lake' that can be moved around your layout. It stops flowing out at about 1/16" thick if acrylic paint has been added for color...such as 'river green', also available at art supply stores.

You can also tease this resin in the last 30 minutes of setting for nice wave effects in your river. You really have to watch the mix close though because this is a timing issue.

[daan]

For deep water you can easily use high gloss paint over a smooth surface. You don't need to see details from unter the water line then. but with rivers and harbours, you'll see the shore and then the visible underwater details add a lot to the realistic appearance.
Though I've seen a harbour built with high gloss paint looking very realistic.. It had the peirs on wooden supports which disquised the surface touching the water..
I've used the patterned plexiglass a few times and it also looks nice.

[FJ and G]

Some great ideas. I'm going to try the epoxy. If it cracks or fails (I've even heard a report that it turns a milky white over time), I'll simply paint over it and use some of your suggestions to put down plexiglass. I have about 2 inches to play with as far as depth goes so if I need to later add plexiglass, I can raise it up a bit and add rubbish and junk or even fish in the intervening air space. Thanks.

I'll put some pictures up in about 2 weeks.

[TexasEd]

In my opinion, 2 inches is way too thick.
I used Envirotex and did it thick and it was too expensive and took forever.
Do it thinner, mabe 1/2 inch.

[Anonymous]

Some of the best water effects I've seen use a combination of clear plexiglass, textured/painted bed, and a clear textture product on the plexigalss to mimic waves/ripples. I think the JLATSF has a pond (Baldwin Lake) made this way with a clear/smoked sheet on one end where you can "see into" the pond. The "Realistic Railroading with Toy Trains" by Lesser/Youngblood outlines how this was built along with a lot of other tips for hi railing.

[selector]

Check out jfugate's clinic on "Realistic Scenery.." in the General Discussion forum at Model Railroading. He describes how to make reaslistic water, and you should see his. [:P]

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=32122

[FJ and G]

Ed,

I didn't mean I'm pouring it 2 inches thick; only about 1/4 or 3/8"

I meant that if it should crack, I could paint over it and lay a clear plexiglass sheet over the area and model stuff in between the surface and the plexiglass. The 2" is how much room I'd have to play with.

[underworld]

There was an article within the last 6 months....I think it was in Model Railroader or CTT or possibly Railroad Model Craftsman that showed preparing the bottom surface and different effects that can be acheived and different materials that can be used for the water. I'll do some digging to see what I can find. Maybe someone here knows what issue it is

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Check out jfugate's clinic on "Realistic Scenery.." in the General Discussion forum at Model Railroading. He describes how to make reaslistic water, and you should see his. [:P]

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=32122

That was one fine thread you pointed us to, selector. The realistic water section was of special interest to me and I found it very informative. My only question is whether or not the Envirotex water has toxic or flammable fumes. My layout is in the basement - not far from the gas funace and water heater.

Jim

[selector]

I think they are essentially safe. I mean, if you poured three or four liters over a parquet floor in your basement, and turned on your furnace an hour later, there might be a problem...but there is no such warning. In my case, I used the two-part Nu-Lustre 55

http://www.swingpaints.com/1555.htm

I heeded their strict instructions to mix in the proportions they prescribe, and to mix AS they prescribe, and then found that I had lots of time to pour a layer in a series of swirls and lines, and then used a small bru***o work it to the very edges. It self-leveled quickly, did develop some bubbles as warned, and I used the hair drier to rid the layer of them. They just climb to the surface and pop, leaving no ripples. You can get a partial appreciation for the effect I derived below (first ever attempt!)