To repaint or not to repaint . . .

[Dr. John]

As I add to my small but growing fleet of O-27 GM&O engines, I have pondered repainting a K-Line Alco S-2 in GM&O colors. It would go well with my Lionel RS-3 and Williams FA-2, both which represent units common in Alabama in the early 1960s.

The downside is that the K-Line S-2 has a certain collectiblity factor. Allan Miller had a great article about these little switchers a few years back in CTT. I own eight of them in various schemes. None were ever made in GM&O colors, though. The one I am considering painting is a Dr. Pepper version (They were also available for Coke, Tru-Value Hardware, Proctor & Gambel, et. al.) Part of me wants to repaint, part of me hates to repaint an engine that I spent time hunting down in an unusual scheme.

Decisions, decisions . . .

[cnw1995]

Don't do it - you'll regret it. Get another one (if you afford it) just for this purpose.

[Big_Boy_4005]

My feelings about painting are: K-line, Williams, and common Lionel are all fair game. In spite of what Allan says, they hardly seem collectable. I have a couple of them and wouldn't think twice about painting them.

[ben10ben]

If I were you, I would(if possible) find a shell for a common road name on Ebay and repaint that, then save the original shell for the future. Without looking, there have been enough S2s made that I'm sure there are a few shells listed on Ebay at the moment.

I agree with Doug, you would probably regret repainting in the future.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Doug. Some of the Kline S2 are unique and of low issue, high collectability. Perhaps you could find one that was produce in larger quanities. (SP Black widow?) If "Ready Made Toys" starts a tread reworking older Marx Loco's, maybe they'll bring the S2 back in a much improved version. They're taking orders for the Buddy (Marx RDC) now. The S2 would look great in GM&O colors! [^]

[brianel027]

I repaint a lot and don't regret any of it. The vast majority of my locomotives are repaints. In a way, I wish I didn't have to. But the roads I'm doing have simply not been done on the smaller locomotives, or if they have been done, they were unpainted plastic or poorly executed. Sometimes I'll modify an exisiting factory paint job. Like my K-Line Alco FA in NYC... I made the paint masks and did the funny looking (at least to me) dark grey into black.

I have K-Line S-2's in:
Lehigh Valley (various Cornell Red schemes, Yellow Jacket scheme)
Conrail (various)
Norfolk Southern (various plus rebuilds and modifications)
CSX (early Bl-Gry-Ylw end scheme, early merger shceme, current Dk Bl scheme)
CNJ (early Dk Grn scheme, Coast Guard scheme)
New Haven (Blk, Orange cab, front)

K-Line Alco FA's in:
Penn Central (all Blk and fantasy PC Gr cab/black body scheme)
Conrail (early and later logos, lettering)
CSX (MOW scheme)
New Haven
Lehigh Valley (Snowbird scheme)
Norfolk Southern

And I could go on with other small engines like Lionel Alcos, NW-2's, Industrial Switchers, K-Line MP-15s plus some custom built shortened 027 engines like a Dash-8, RS-3 and a U36B made to look good on smaller 027 layouts.

I always thought the so-called "collector value" of the hobby was as much of a detriment as an asset. Time of course will tell, but with so much product on the market now (both new and used), and ever decreasing numbers of adult collectors, I only see prices going DOWN on nearly everything except for prime condition pre-war/postwar that is still in the box or very unusual.

I think this trend is being pushed alone further by the increased interest in digitally equipped control types of locomotives. These are being bought by the folks who can afford to have large layouts and can afford to pay higher prices for trains that they want to RUN. I think this helps account for the increased numbers of non-control used locomotives that are showing up on the after-sale market.

The K-Line S-2's were made in fairly large numbers and were made in a seemingly countless variety of roads - though most promotional after retailers, grocery chains and other businesses. It's possible some of these unusual ones could one day be worth money. But I bought one of these grocery store ones years ago at YORK... I didn't even have to deal with the guy... $35 and it was mine. I didn't hesitate to repaint it to the New Haven. Yes, I actally remember most of what I repainted and what it was prior.

Long and short, I think it will take a number of years for many of these current era engines to have any real collector value - if at all ever. Especially since in upcoming years, we going to see a lot more postwar stuff being on the market again.

[FJ and G]

I'm in the paint it category. WHy?

I just think that the GM&O had really cool colors and is a classy road to model.

Forget the collectibility thing. The hobby is about enjoyment.

Try the bond market for collectibility.

[CB_Fan]

Dr. John, I guess you'll have to decide if you're a collector or an operator. I have two "former" Lionel locomotives that I'm mighty proud of and run on my Cotton Belt & Gulf as well as on the SWARM modular layout. Both are now powered by Williams, with repainted Lionel shells placed on Williams chassis. One is a likeness of the single GP-7 owned and operated by the Cotton Belt -- in it's as-delivered paint job -- and it ran through my hometown in NW Louisiana in the 1950s. The other is a T&P/Missouri Pacific F3 that started life as a postwar dummy Santa Fe F3. I plan to run them in Mobile's Colonial Mall Bel Air the weekend of May 20 - 22. If you're down this way, bring something to run with us.

[philo426]

I would re-paint it!I love the red-and-white paint scheme of the G,M and O.You should also try to find a Lionel #8772 G,M,andO Gp-20 as well as Mth which made a low-nose geep in Gulf,Mobile and Ohio livery.

[ChiefEagles]

Dr. John, I use to buy U36B's and GP's and repaint and decal them them CN. I would shop around and find a raod name that did not sell and get them at a reduced price. Then I would go to work on them. As for anyting good, I would not touch it. As suggested, find a used shell and redo it.


Some examples of non-descript engines converted to the raod name I wanted. I had to convert all of my rolling stock that you have seen that is CN.
All from cheap buys of hoppers, covered hoppers, reefers and boxcars. I really enjoyed it. Now I am goign to work on more with NS and CN.

[cnw1995]

Wow, Chief, great job!

[underworld]

I think I would go the route of a different shell....and paint that one.

Chief Like cnw1995 said....wow!
Are you for hire???

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Interesting discussion!!! Opinions seem to be pretty evenly split.

I was in a hurry when I made my original comments earlier, so let me add to those thoughts.

Consider this, what makes something collectable??

Supply and demand. Why don't Marx trains command the same kind of crazy prices that Lionel trains do? Demand just isn't there. I think a lot has to do with the name and the reputation. Marx was always considered to be a lesser manufacturer, even though they made some really nice stuff in their day.

K-line has always catered to the idea of making commerative trains with unusual and unrealistic paint schemes in the hopes of reaching out to people that collect other things, like Coke or Ford or whatever. They would do a run of custom paint for anyone, when Lionel refused, and in small quantities. Does this make them collectable? Maybe, but there still has to be a demand.

Now if Allen, or anyone else, writes an article or a book saying that these things are "rare", there is a chance that people will take notice. Suddenly there is a demand, where once there was none. Collecting is based on hype. No hype, no value. Scout sets don't get much hype. A Blue Comet on the other hand, you get the idea.

Personally, I got over the collecting thing when the manufacturers started flooding the market. I started to see the trains for what they really were, models of real trains.

The future is uncertain. The trains are to be enjoyed here and now without regard for their future value. Do you think that people in the early part of the 20th century gave any thought to the future value of their toys? Doubtful, they just played with and enjoyed them, some even painted them.

I have a set of shells from some Santa Fe F-3's, an A and 2 B's (screen tops) that I picked up in a collection that I bought. All were painted.

Bottom line, they're your trains. If you don't like the way they look, paint away.

[Jumijo]

If re-painting it pleases you, do it. Either get a second shell and paint that, or just dive right in and paint the one you have. All this talk about collectability value is kind of comical. I don't know what you paid for the loco, but I seriously doubt it's ever going to be valuable enough to change your life. You won't be able to retire on it's value, or even take a vacation on it. I'd rather have a loco with a roadname on it I like. Dr. Pepper, Coke, SpongeBob . . . None of them are road names or liveries I see in my neck of the woods. Nothing built nowadays is going to be worth what mint condition stuff from the past is worth because everything is "collectible" today. Besides, once you take it out of the box and run it just once, it's not mint any more. You might as well enjoy it, and if that means re-painting it, go for it.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Dr. John:

I have an extra S2 shell or two laying around that you can have cheap--say $15 bucks. Heck, I can even sell you complete units--or even a couple of sets--very cheaply if you're interested in them. I have an Auto Value set packed awqay somewhere, and several other S2s still remaining from my collection--LV, Santa Fe, B&O, Chessie, etc.

Contact me at [e-mail] if I can help.

As for repainting: There's almost nothing made these days that I wouldn't repaint if I cared to. I still wouldn't mess with items that I was collecting, though, unless I had duplicates of the item. I once had more than 100 different S2s, and if I was still collecting them, I would be keeping them intact as a collection.

[Dr. John]

Thanks for all of the responses guys!

CB fan, if I'm down in Mobile I'll be sure to come by the Mall.

Philo426, yeah I have the Lionel GP-20 - great paint job, but I don't like it as much as the Alcos (GM&O didn't have any GP-20s, not that it bothers me). Williams also has Alco PAs and E-7s in GM&O.

The second shell idea sounds good. Allan, I'll contact you by e-mail.

Now, do I go with the two-tone scheme or the solid red? . . .

[Big_Boy_4005]

Two tone!!!! The extra effort will be enjoyed for years to come.

[Dr. John]

Two tone it is! [:D]

Now to locate some O scale GM&O decals.

[ChiefEagles]

Dr. John, try this one: http://www.microscale.com/

[Anonymous]

Repaint them. After all, you can't take them with you.
BillFromWayne

[brianel027]

One of these days gang, I'm gonna have the money to shoot some film and try to get some photos up loaded now that so many labs will also give you a CD of your negatives.

Even if I thought I did lousy work (which I don't) I've had so many people give me real compliments on the quality and professionalism of my paint jobs, from Lionel postwar guys to scale HO guys. Once an HO guy asked me why I wasted my time doing such nice work on "toy" trains when I could put my talents to HO scale trains?

What can I say.... my first love is with toy trains. It's just nice to have in my favorite road names and having them so the shells don't glow when the inside cab light light is on, which unfortuantely many of them do. K-Line started using plastic colored shells in the early days, but went to using white styrene with a very quick spray of silver on the inside. Unfortunately the quick-job silver spray needs another coat... and I've done that too on locos where I wanted to keep the outer paint scheme.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I went looking for decals, but the pickins are slim. I found this photo, with a switcher in it, but you can't really see the part you want.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=32155

[FJ and G]

Brian,

My folks live in Gloversville NY. If you are between Binghampton and there or in the Albany area, I'll stop by and take pictures.