O-27 Question

[Frank53]

In thinking about my new layout which is a tight space, I have some questions about O-27.

I have a space 36" wide and I am going to use a standard track 31" reversing loop at that end. I have no experience with O-27, and am assuming the diameter is 27" which would give me the ability to but a full turn within the 31" diameter. Luckily, the space is 36" x 16' with a 4 x 8 placed perpindicular at the end.

My trains are nothing overpowering size wise, the toughest navigator being 2344 NYC. My others are 726 and 681, 621 and 2026. Will any of these have a tough time negotiating the smaller radius?

[SPFan]

I haven't tried running the F-3 or Berkshire on 027 but if you you are thinking of placing a circle of 027 within the 031, the track will be too close to allow two trains to pass. These tight radius es cause even the shortest cars to overhang the track on the inside, and pilots to overhang the outside.

Pete

[spankybird]

Hi Frank,

I do not believe that a circle of O27 will fit inside a circle of O31. These diameters are to the center rail and the track is 2 1/8” wide. So outside rail to rail of O27 is 29 1/8” and the inside rail to rail of O31 is 28 7/8” and you will need at least 4 ½ “ between tracks for the trains to clear each other.

tom

[Frank53]

I guess I could could put a 3" track section in between to broaden the 31 and then slide the 27 in a bit. Would that work?

[cnw1995]

I've tried it - 027 doesn't fit neatly inside 031. Frank, you can add track to the outer circle to make it broader (or should that read 'wider'). While I'm unsure of all your engines, I've found most 031 engines can run on 027 - they just look a bit nasty.

[brianel027]

I don't know how I did it, but I had 2 main line tracks running around my layout on the first one I built. All track was 027. I do recall having to do a lot of experimenting as I set up the layout. And none of my engines were that big. At the time I did have a Lionel RS-3, but most of the locos were smaller Lionel or K-Line ones. I did have to remove the additional outside sheetmetal handrail on the MP-15's. I do know once I got it all done, I could run two trains with no overhang problems. I recall at the time laying the track with my biggest cars and locos close at hand to check everything before I permanently attached the track. I also chopped down some 027 turnouts so the 2 mainlines were connected to eachother. Each was insulated electrically from eachother, but with the 2 transformers phased to eachother so one train could cross into the other mainline.

The one drawback IMHO to the double mainline on such a small layout size is that the view of the trains gets blocked a lot from them passing eachother. In the end, although it was fun to run more trains, I decided I wanted to have full view of whatever I was running, so I decided on a single main line for the second layout. Talk about a madman... I also had an overhead line on that first layout so I actually could run 3 trains at once. My train buddies though I was nuts... and I finally agreed with them and built the next layout not quite as complicated.

This also allowed more space for scenery, buildings, operating accessories (it's as much fun to load and unload as it is to just watch more trains) and for yard sidings. I've never had or built big layouts... I've built a few door layouts over the years too. I'd say (depending on your tastes) it's more fun to have more yard sidings so you can switch cars and load / unload them, especially if space is limited.

I'll also say I prefer 027 track to the standard 0, for no other reason than the profile height. On a small layout, it's nice not to have the track dominate the space. Some have talked about the durability of 0 versus 027. I don't think that's an issue at all if you are building a permanent layout.... my track has held up just fine.

The biggest drawback to 027 track are the turnouts... both the Lionel and K-Line ones both have a large base footprint that takes up a lot of space and limits what can be done. At least the new K-Line ones are improved with a literally non-existant switch housing and are made to be wired for auxiliary power. the brown Lionel versions (made since the MPC era starting in 1970) have a very large oversized switch box housing... this is what can cause problems with clearance. There are trains that will make the 027 curve, but hit the housing on the turnouts.

Bear in mind you can also use Gargraves turnouts with 027 track quite easily... they are the same height and Gargraves makes adaptor pins. Also keep your eyes open for the MARX 027 curves with the 34 inch diameter. 027 curves are made in standard 27 inch diameter and also 42" and 54". Only MARX made the track with a 34" diameter which can be real useful on a small layout with an idea like yours.

027 track is certainly affordable. Bear in mind you can also look for the old Lionel postwar 1024 manual turnouts. It's possible to find them in decent shape. They have a smaller footprint than the other's currently made. The only alteration I've found myself making to these turnouts is soldering some additional feeder wires to the bottom to insure good electrical flow... I use a lot of electrical blocks on my track.

[Frank53]

I am thinking I can have a 31" + a shimmey with an 0-27 within it under a mountain and emerge from a tunnel. YOu really wouldn't see it, and after emerging, they can go their own way, ot I can use the 0-27 on a higher level and be within the 31" + turn.

Or I can make a reversing loop with 0-27,

just tyring to figure if I have options within this narrow space

and thanks very much for the responses

[Dave Farquhar]

O27 fits inside Marx O34, but you can still run into clearance issues on curves if you put the two lines too close together. I just put a circle of 8 pieces of O27 inside a circle of 8 O34s and ran two locomotives on it by hand--they would have had issues clearing one another.

It's been at least 30 years since Marx O34 was made, and Marx was the only one who made it, so it's a lot less common than O27. Still, it's possible to find it, because it seems Marx made a lot of it. The distinctive characteristic of O34 is the five black ties. So, when looking, look for track with five black ties on it. Marx also made some long straights that were about 11 inches long. But you can always use regular 8.75-inch straights with the O34s, as well as the double and quad-length straights, of course.

All that said, my next layout is going to be based on a layout that was published in CTT but using Marx O34 track. So I'll get slightly wider radii than O31 track but it'll let me use Marx switches, so I can run pretty much whatever I want on it. That's important, because I have a lot of Marx.

[3railguy]

Frank, 36" does not give you enough width for a two track main line. With 027, track, there would be enough room on only one side of the inside oval for an outside track to pass. This would leave you with about 3" from the centerline of tracks to edge of layout.

With 027, a reverse loop folded dogbobone would work. The single track between the two reverse loops would wrap around the first reverse loop on one side and entter the second reverse loop. This won't work with 031 because 36" isn't enough width.

Dave is right about Marx 034. I have tried to put 027 inside it and there are too many clearance issues with rolling stock and engines. It's just too tight.

[lionelsoni]

O27 is 27 inches to the outsides of the ties, not to the center rail. The radius to the center rail is 12 1/2 inches. Two times that plus the 2-inch tie length (not 2 1/8--O27 ties are smaller than O31 ties) is 27 inches.

O31 is slightly less than 31 inches to the outsides of the ties. O34 is 33 1/2 inches.

[Frank53]

Using the multi layer idea I am developing, I think the O-27 is going to help me, I've just got to draw it up. I'm going to pick a dozen O-27 curves tomorrow and monkey around with it. Considering I plan on hiding some of this in a tunnel, I have options. I want to see if I can navigate an 0'27 reversing loop on another level.

Worst case is, I'll blow off $30 or so bucks on some track and find out it doesn't work, or it will . . .

but definately one of the two.

[jimhaleyscomet]

Here is a picture of a 36 inch door layout with 031 (K-line shadow track) on the outside and 027 on the inside with 027 K-line switches. The shadow track has 3.5" straights on the ends to space out the track. No problems passing. The only thing I do not like is any tunnel over the 031 would have to hange over the edge.

I regularly run 4 trains (2 on inside and 2on the outside)




Jim H

[pbjwilson]

As far as running engines on O27, my 736 Berkshire handles it no problem. Even have a set of Williams 15" madison cars that negotiate O27 curves. They look rather strange going through the curves, they kind of pivot around them. Also a GP-9 works fine too, even though O31 is reccomended.

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimhaleyscomet

Here is a picture of a 36 inch door layout with 031 (K-line shadow track) on the outside and 027 on the inside with 027 K-line switches.

Thanks for that Jim. ANy chance you have a bigger shot of it??

[spankybird]

HI Frank53,

If you are planning on O27, then please strongly consider the K-line O27 switches. They are far better than the Lionel one, IMO. I have changed over all mine to the K-Line ones.
tom

[Frank53]

Spanky - thanks for the heads up on the switches.

I am not familiar with K-Line - who makes those?

[spankybird]

They are made by K-line

www.k-linetrains.com

http://www.k-linetrains.com/products/viewprd_new.cfm?prdID=1B17620D-6C6C-11D4-ADA90060B0576B82&secID=B17A068D-6D44-11D4-ADA90060B0576B82

this is the correct switch, but they never updated the pic of it.



tom

[lionelsoni]

Frank, you mentioned having a 2344. I think you would find that it can't get through Lionel O27 switches. The later vertical-motor F3s will, just barely, because the truck center bearings are closer together.

[Frank53]

lionelsoni - that's a valuable piece of information - thanks

I will need to keep the 2344 off the o-27 line, which will impact how I plan this. It was my intent to have the 2344 running as an outside diameter passanger train anyway, The 2026 would probably work ok on the o-27 track, it's compact.

[spankybird]

Bob makes some very good points on the Lionel switches, this is why I strongly sugest the K-Line ones. I personlly can say that I run some very large engines thru them



tom

[lionelsoni]

My 2-6-4 2026 has no clearance problem with O27 switches, nor should a 2-6-2. However, they do have a design problem with oversteering the pilot truck, which can cause derailments on switches and crossings near curves, no matter whose switches you use. If you notice a problem with this, let me know, and I can describe a locomotive modification that will fix it.

[lionelsoni]

Tom, I run a Rail King Big Boy through Lionel O27 switches. Big articulated locomotives like that are actually easier. The trick is that, below the frame, they are almost solid wheels from front to back. The wheels of course stay close to the track; and the frame is higher than the Lionel switch machine, so it just swings over it. (I do have to remove the silly signal-flag thing from the top of the modern switches, however; but I would do that anyway.)