MPC, MTH, Lionel, ABC, etc-confused

[Anonymous]

Hi all, who made what-where-when,. I see so much for sale but they say this is by MPC, and another says MTH, but most say Lionel on box except for K-line.Are they just paying Lionel for box rights or what??
I thought if you bought a train and it said Lionel on the box it was Lionel , but I guese not always true---
Read somewhere where some music person now owns part of Lionel and they are now being made in Asia some where--No wonder America is where it is today!!
I have a 6-8002 Berkshire, is it Lionel , Asian or what??

[Dave Farquhar]

expogs6, it can be confusing.

First, although "O gauge" and "Lionel" are synonymous in most people's mind, anyone can make O gauge trains, and you have to make them Lionel-compatible if you expect to sell any. K-Line has licensed some technology from Lionel, so occasionally you see a K-Line box that claims to have Lionel Railsounds or something similar. But K-Line is a separate company. MTH is also a separate company, and the two are bitter rivals. There are some other names you might see as well: Williams, AtlasO, 3rd Rail, Weaver, Ready Made Toys, Industrial Rail.

As far as Lionel... Lionel Corporation was founded in 1900. It manufactured trains until 1969. It fell on hard times in the '60s, went into bankruptcy and emerged, but it sold its train lines to General Mills, who continued the Lionel line as a subsidiary of its Model Products Corporation (MPC), hence the MPC name. This arrangement continued through the 1970s and early 1980s. Lionel got bounced around a bit in the mid 1980s. Then a prominent Lionel collector named Richard Kughn bought the Lionel rights and founded a company called Lionel Trains, Inc. (LTI).

Now, mind you, Lionel Corporation was still in business, but it had transformed itself into a chain of toy stores. Lionel Corporation didn't go out of business for good until the early to mid 1990s (I don't know the exact date). When Lionel Corporation again went bankrupt, it sold its trademarks. Who exactly owns the trademarks today is a point of confusion.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Kughn wanted to retire, so he sold controlling interest in LTI to an investor named Martin Davis. Rock musician Neil Young bought a 20% stake as well, with Kughn retaining a 5% stake. Davis was a partner in a holding company called Wellspring Associates, who manages Lionel but apparently does not own it. Davis has since died.

In 2000, Lionel stopped making trains in the USA, outsourcing all of its production. So the Lionel of today is an importer of trains, rather than a manufacturer. This was an unpopular move at the time--at least with a very vocal minority--and remains so with some people.

There are people who consider the only "true" Lionel trains to be the ones made by Lionel Corp. from 1900 to 1969. Others don't care. Everyone is different.

I prefer to buy American when I can, but that's getting increasingly difficult. That said, the overwhelming majority of my Lionels are of the pre-1970 variety. I own one MPC flatcar, and I have a boxcar and gondola that may be MPC. I also own a Polar Express set. I own five pre-1969 Lionel locomotives and a big pile of pre-1969 cars. I like it that way. That PE is nice, and it's a smooth runner, but the Lionels I remember are the 1110 and 2026 that belonged to my Dad, so that's where my heart is.

[Anonymous]

Hi Dave -THANKS for the insight!! Guese I won't listen to any more Neil Diamond if I can
help it--don't care for him anyway--but beside the point, itts really quite a shame --no wonder
people starting out have no interest per-say in trains- I certainly don't wont any part of any thing from or near those countrys, but in al lot of cases have no choice, heck you can't even get a pair of shoes that say MADE in USA!!
How long before MTH & K-line start out sourceing as well??--Or do they already?
I know like you -a lot of you have been into this a lot longer than I have, and I really do appreciate your advice and help!![:)][:)]

[iguanaman3]

MTH and K-Line moved all their production to Asia long before Lionel gave in to the tide. MTH pumped out 1000's of fine locos in the late 90's..at prices that Lionel could not hope to match with USA factories. And then K-line started doing the same thing. Lionel had to move or die in the market. Your 1980 8002 may say MPC but it was made in Michigan with the same dies and methods as the "old" Lionel 736 Berkshire and runs just as well.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for info, really good insight !!

[Dave Farquhar]

Iguanaman is right, Lionel moved production to Asia after MTH and K-Line did. MPC briefly moved Lionel production to Mexico (in 1983 or 1984 I think) but quickly brought it back to Michigan. Of the O gauge manufacturers who are left, Weaver is the only one who still has significant production here in the States, but even some of their work is outsourced.

And it's Neil Young (as in Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young) who owns part of LIonel, not Neil Diamond.

[Anonymous]

Dave,
Very interesting history on Lionel. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[spankybird]

Dave,

that is a great review. Very nicely done.

tom

[Dave Farquhar]

Thanks, Larry and Tom. The history of the companies that made them is about as interesting to me as the trains themselves.

[Kooljock1]

And just so you know, The Lionel Corporation "out-sourced" the tooling of the 700E, 238E, B-6 and lot's of other "classic" items to Fascist Italy in the 1930's and 40's, and the motors to their complete line were built in Japan for a while in the 1960's.

Out sourcing is not a new thing.

MTH out-sourced their complete line, although very early on assembled some items in Maryland from parts made overseas.

K-Line has always been made in China, with many tools originally created by Kusan and Marx.

Atlas O has always been off-shore.

Williams is made in China in the same factory as much of the Lionel line.

Weaver still makes SOME stuff in PA.

Jon [8D]

[Kooljock1]

One other thought. Lionel still owns their factory building in Chesterfield, MI. And rumor has it (this hobby LOVES rumors!), the lights have been turned back on, and something is going on inside.

Niel Young is a big proponent of US production. This could be the awakenings of their much vaunted CAB-2 line talked about by Jerry Calabrese over the weekend.

Jon [8D]

[ChiefEagles]

kooljock1, what Lionel factory building burned? It was in CTT or OGR or both several months ago.

[Anonymous]

I really do hate having to buy foreign stuff and support their people vs US support. I avoid when I can which is less often every day. Now they are coming over here and taking over too much of USA, why can't they build there own country??---Basically because they are mostly cowards and want something for nothing.
Hope sometime Lionel will come back to USA!!, along with others even if it does cost more.

[ChiefEagles]

QUOTE: Originally posted by expogs6

---Basically because they are mostly cowards and want something for nothing.

You obviously have not had to fight against some of "them".

[1688torpedo]

Chief Eagles. It was the old Lionel Factory in Irvington ,New Jersey that burned down almost one year ago.It was built in 1917 and was used until 1967.There is a Picture of some of the employees in front of the building with a Standard Gauge Layout on 21st street in Irvington from 1924.Ron Hollander's famous book about Lionel has some photo's of the factory (Before it Burned) ..Keith

[Anonymous]

Yea Chief, thats a fact, I hate giving away what so many people fought for then turn around and basically give the country away!! Very poor![:(]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kooljock1

One other thought. Lionel still owns their factory building in Chesterfield, MI. And rumor has it (this hobby LOVES rumors!), the lights have been turned back on, and something is going on inside.

Niel Young is a big proponent of US production. This could be the awakenings of their much vaunted CAB-2 line talked about by Jerry Calabrese over the weekend.

Jon [8D]

I thought that Lionel was in a new building. Anyway, utilities would have been kept on in a building like that so that sprinkler and other pipes would not freeze. Besides, the square footage requirements for TMCCII production would not be such that the entire plant would be required. Furthermore, Wellspring would not want to risk rehiring any union workers and would prohibit any resumption of Michigan production. Maybe there is some R&D work going on but the fact is that small scale pilot production of small electronic devices like toy train command control and sound equipment could be done in a basement. I have seen this done.

[brianel027]

Expogs6, Just for the record, K-Line Trains were orginally made right in their current facility in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. They still use the same exact building where the trains were once made, but not for manufacturing. It was in late 1989 or 1990 that K-Line moved all production to China. You can still find some of the early K-Line cars with the imprint "Made In USA" or "Made In Chapel Hill."

As for Lionel and outsourcing: Lionel did manufacture in Mexico for a short spell during the early 1980's sometime. Lionel has for years had some parts and prodcucts of their line made overseas, Hong Kong in particular comes to mind. When Gary Moreau took the helm at Lionel, he at least openly admitted that all starter sets were going to be made overseas. As a matter of fact, when I bought my C&O Flyer set around 1992, the outside box clearly said "Made in USA." When I took the loco apart, I found the body casting said "Made in Maccau."

The years preceeding the actual closing of Lionel's US facillity saw a gradual increased number of parts, components and finished products being made overseas. And just to put some perspective on costs, I understand it costs Lionel around $2.00 grand total to have a box car made and shipped to the US. Which would also probably be K-Line's price since they are both made in the same exact Chinese facility... just different parts of that facility.

I wouldn't hold it against Neil Young for what goes on at Lionel. His music is one thing: either you like it or you don't. I happen to like it, especially the stuff no one else likes ("Trans" "Landing On Water" and "Time Fades Away" are amongst his masterpieces, though all very poor sellers). You can bet good money than Neil and the corporate folks running Lionel don't always see eye-to-eye on things. I know Neil was against the production move overseas (listen to the lyrics of "Motor City" from "Re-act-or"). If you ever seen Neil at a train show somewhere, and then see him involved in his music, two very different sides of his persona come through... he's a big train nut!

[Anonymous]

Hi Cheif, sorry I misread your message---I am a Viet-Nam vet, and my familys history of
fighting goes back beyond the Civil war---what I meant was the boats that are coming over now and through southern borders are giving the most problems.
Anyway, glad to be a born American and yes I keep my guns loaded!![:)][:)]
What the gov't allows we can't control except for voteing.
Really glad to talk to you!

[ChiefEagles]

expogs6, you're a good man [you fought in country]. Agree [keep them loaded, got my carry conceal permit]. Now is the big question???? On which side of the line did your folks fight during the War of Northern Oppression. [;)] Now you know which side my "name sake" fought as well as all of my ancestors. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Hi Chief, Maryland won't give us personal permits, unless you "carry large sums of money"--
So you know where this state is---
All of my family were from south-Mainly southern Va. I grew up in NC & Va.
That should tell you something as well.

[ChiefEagles]

Expo, we need to talk. You may be kin. You near Baltimore? Going to Baltimore March 3 thru 6. Arrive on the 2nd. Will be doing a show at Bass Pro Shops then.

[Anonymous]

Hi Chief, I am about an hour from Balt. depending on which side---Don't know much about getting around there. Have been to train museum, but thats been a while-Thats a nice place to visit.
Just for info---Long time ago my family {past} was given about 20 square miles of land by some king {around Martinsville, Va.}--unfortunately they ended up selling it all off and about ended up with nothing {a shame} .[:(]
Anyway--keep in touch[:)][:)]