I have a question for the electricians in the group. I have a MPC General 6-8701 with a pul-more motor. It was new in the box when I got it last year. I lubed it and put it to work on the grandkids side of the layout. That side is powered by a CW-80. I like the CW-80 because of the slow start mode when using the direction button. Keeps the kids in line some. Anyway the General has a very hard time at start up with that transformer. It herks and jerks and won’t start up with out a push at times. So I removed it till yesterday. Tried it again yesterday with the same results. So I pulled it down and replaced the brushes and cleaned commutator even though it looked good. When I tested it was sort of better but still doing the herks and jerks then on the second try it would not take off. So I thought maybe it is something with the CW-80 and put it on the main side of the layout run by the ZW. It could not run better????? When I run the 4-4-0 Denver Rio Grand Western General Locomotive # 346 from 2012 with the CW-80 it has no issues at all. It has a DC can motor.So the question is why??For now I have swaped it with the Denver Rio Grand General I used to run on the ZW side.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
The 8701 has a two position reverse unit, and the motor in these runs so well(for mine anyway - including w/ CW) that it starts running in the opposite direction before the pendulum picks up and switches to the other field. To eliminate this effect, lock the loco in forward and run it for a while.
It just may be that it has not yet been broken in yet, as you state it was NIB last year, mine has a couple of hundred hours use on it(I still store it in the box, though).
One last issue - clear the commutator slots too. Dust, brush material, & oil/lube may have accumulated and been packed in by the brushes causing a slight bleed-over between segments causing the hard starts.
Rob
Good idea locking it in one diirection I had not thought about the two position reverse unit and the low voltage start up. The commutator slots are clean. I will give it a try locked in foward.
Thanks.
Okay, I locked it in foward and it is much better. I doubt this has 1//2 hour of run time on it. How much time will it need to break in?
Tks,
Hard to say.
I had to add more cars - like the horse trasport, a livestock/cattle car(6656), and I threw in a pickle car too, to slow it down some and get good reverse unit operation.
I have several MPC A/C motored Generals. All run fine from my ZW. Could be yours just doesn't like the CW-80 cause as we know it was designed for sets with DC motors in them.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Yes James, kind of what I was leading up to is that for some reason it don't seem to like the CW-80 but has no issue with the ZW. Just kind of wondering what the difference is between the two transformers.
I have added a bobble head horse car and a milk car to the consist as well.
Not the guy for this but it has to do with a different sine wave. It is also the reason MTH does not recommend the CW-80 for their engines. Nothing wrong with using a CW-80, it just doesn't always play nice with the other kids.
I think that this problem could have something to do with the kind of overcurrent protection that the CW-80 and similar "transformers" use. They shut down or go into a foldback condition very quickly when the current exceeds a threshold, however briefly. A real transformer will supply very large overcurrents momentarily, because the thermal circuit breakers traditionally used react slowly. Some people think that fast acting circuit breakers and fuses are a good thing; but, since overheated wiring is what damages a transformer, it is appropriate that the circuit breaker model the heating and trip only when the temperature builds up to a dangerous level.
Motors of various kinds can draw heavy currents when starting; and circuits for starting motors are often protected with slow-blow fuses or other overcurrent protection that avoids nuisance blowing or tripping on starting or when a momentary load increase occurs. A bad design choice in this regard in the CW-80 could be to blame, by tripping and resetting repeatedly until the locomotive gets moving.
Bob Nelson
lionelsoni...A bad design choice in this regard in the CW-80 could be to blame, by tripping and resetting repeatedly until the locomotive gets moving
The CW doesn't shut down, it continues to deliver 5 amps while in foldback mode. With this loco, it's not drawing near that, probably 1 amp with a full consist at 12-14 volts.
Did not mean to start a fight here,
So scrap everything.
So back to the first post. Still,,,"It still will not start up after sitting with the CW-80 locked in one direction or not. But put it on the track with the ZW and it goes?" I have had it running for two hours to break it in, Well now it will not start up in foward if it sits with the ZW. Reverse,,takes right off. Maybe something else is wrong, but I don’t get it??? Like when I first asked???
Now I am out of ideas,,,,,,,,,,,,
Kevin I may be out in left field here but your also talking two different type motors the Dc motor takes a lot less to run it and the pul-mor has and always will take more to opperate so it and the CW-80 may not play well at all because of the power it takes most trains sets I have seen with a CW-80 had DC motors not saying they didn't do a pul-mor one but I can't say I have seen one. Just a thought
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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Well I took it apart again but now suspect of the machine and not the transformer. I had noticed a much greater arcing on one brush than the other so I started there. Under the magnifying glass I found what almost looked to be rust on one of the brush springs. So I cleaned the springs and adjusted them to put even pressure on the brushes. Then I cleaned the contacts on the e-unit where the switch lever contacts the forward and reverse points. Again there seemed to be some slight corrosion there. Now it seems to be fixed and the arcing is way better. I let it sit over night and it took right off this morning on the ZW. I will try the CW-80 next. One thing for sure, this design is WAY easier to disassemble and assemble than the newer Generals with the can motor and circuit board.
"The CW doesn't shut down, it continues to deliver 5 amps while in foldback mode." Rob, that's not how foldback works. Here's a description from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldback_(power_supply_design)
That link is broken, but there's a pointer to the right page. I didn't name it, Lionel did, and that is what happens, regardless of what it's called.
Okay back to the point here and not the point counter point.
I ran the MPC general for one hour last night before I went to bed on the CW-80 side of the layout then shut it down so it would start up in forward. I just went down and turned on the power to the layout and the General took off just fine. So in the end there are some differences between the CW-80 and ZW but my problem was a small amount of corrosion caused by sitting 35+ years in the box. Thanks for all of your input and help.
Next time I will know to look closer. I think it is broken in now to.
Well I thought it was all better, but after sitting over a week it is as it was when I started this thread. At least using the CW-80 Have not tried it on the ZW. Please read the first post for background info.
Here is a video of the problem?? Got me. Track is clean, wheels are clean. Everything looks good. I just don't get it. I will try it cold on the ZW tomorrow.
It looks like you are back to your brush/commutator issue.
ADCX Rob It looks like you are back to your brush/commutator issue.
Seems that your right. Does the same with the ZW just not as bad. Question is what is going on?
Well back at it I found a lot of up and down movement of the armature so I had two new brush plate assemblies with the adjustment screw in them so I swapped one of them out with the one on it that did not have the screw. So far so good, but then again I thought I had it before.
So I will let you know.
Kevin thats why I emailed you last night to try another engine with a pul-mor engine to elliminate that as a problem.
rtraincollector Kevin thats why I emailed you last night to try another engine with a pul-mor engine to elliminate that as a problem.
I did try another engine RT and they were fine. Why I went back at it.
Close this thread, It is fixed, It seems it was the brush holder. A strange mix of left over Lionel stock and MPC stock, At any rate when I watched the armature slop move up and down, I noticed that one brush would hang up. Also there was the old oil plate on this brush holder without the wick or the cut away in the plastic holder for the oil to get to the armature shaft??????? WTH????? So changing the brush plate with one with the screw adjustment and adjusting the lash took care of the issue. No wonder MPC put Lionel in the skids.
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