TRAIN TABLE DESIGN TO REDUCE OPERATING SOUND

[Southwest Limited]

New member needing information to help build layout table to have the least amount of operating sound.  Going to be using fastrack.  The top layer will be stained plywood.  What type of material should i use under the plywood and between the frame work of the table (L Girder design).

Thanks John !!!

 

[rtraincollector]

What you need is goto your bigbox store harware and get about 1/2" - 3/4" sheets of insulation ( the pink or blue styrophoam looking stuff ) and put that down on top of the plywood then attach your fastrack to it with out screwing into the wood. fast track directly on wook is very loud no matter what you do. 

I'm not a fan of fastrack but it does have it's good points in use. Either way no matter what type of track you use what I just stated is really the one of the best ways to start not the only as sure others will post other ways but we will all I think agree do not screw directly to the plywood as it will make a ehco chamber. 

[Southwest Limited]

What about a sandwich of sorts with the insulation between plywoods.  The track would be screwed to the top piece of wood.  I am only choosing the fastrack since it has the road bed look already to go.  Some sort of cork road bed under another brand is an option.  I am at the point where I will be starting on the table soon and need to have the table top (with sound reduction) plan finalized.

Rtraincollector thanks for you response !!

JOHN

[rtraincollector]

fast track is loud. all your going to do is create a amperfier attaching it to plywood and if the screws go thru anything into the plywood the vibration/noise will follow into the wood believe me its all been tried. 

[servoguy]

I think you should probably fill the underside of the FasTrack with NON-expanding foam.  I have used expanding foam to quiet box structures made from steel.  We filled up the inside of the boxes with expanding foam, and the noise went down considerably.

Since FasTrack makes a lot of noise when it is on carpet, the problem is with the FasTrack itself.

I haven't done this, so you are on your own, but I don't think anyone else has done it either.

[Southwest Limited]

servoguy,  thanks for your post/idea !!  Filling the underside of the fastrack is a good idea !!  However, not sure how I would accomplish it with the wiring of each piece track to the buss.

Any other designs being used out there ??

Thanks  John

 

[servoguy]

I use tubular track for several reasons:  It is cheap.  It is cheap.  It is cheap. and it is cheap.  It is quiet.  I can cut it to any length want.  I have 125 022 switches.  I have 17 AF O-40 switches.  I have 30 072 switches (711).  This is the track I wanted when I was a kid back in the '50s.  I am an operator, not a modeler.  I like to run the trains.  I have modified the tubular track so It makes very good connections between sections, and I can take it apart and change the layout very easily.  It is flexible, so the alignment of the track does not have to be perfect.  I run mostly post war trains, and they run well on tubular track.  

I can appreciate the looks of scale locos and cars, but many things don't scale well.  Time doesn't scale.  Track length doesn't scale very well.  A scale mile of track is 110 feet.  Curves don't scale well because most of us don't have room for track with extremely wide radii.  And by the way, the HO modelers have the same problem.  

From Wikipedia:  "For handling of long freight trains, a minimum 717-foot (218.5 m) radius is preferred."  This is 179 inch radius, or O-358.5.  I don't think we are going here.  In spite of the fact that we can't get to realistic track radii, O-72 looks better than O-27.  But not everyone has room for O-72.  

[rtraincollector]

To me your biggest problem is the fastrack but as said I do see a use for it. I use a brand called gargraves looks more real with ties but as servoguy said less noisey. I put indoor out door carpet down and to help with the noise from being carried to the plywood ( it help some but not 100%) I got an item called liquid electrical tape and painted all my screws wich help the transfer of the noise along with the carpet but because Fastrack is like a hollowshel it amperfies the noise and only way to calm it some is as we said above. I wish some of the others who have delt with fastrack ot MTH realtracts I think its called about the same thing would comment to give you more ideas on quieting it as I don't work with it so don't keep up with the tricks to using it. 

[jwse30]

I used the blue foam under my tables as mentioned above. It didn't do much for sound deadening on my layout. I am using 027 type tubular track with cork roadbed and rubber ties (from 3r plastics). I hold the track in place with small cable ties that are cinched under the table with another cable tie. The foam insulation does help keep the cable ties tight though.

 

I've tried all the noise reduction techniques I have heard of at the time and the layout is still loud. I think it's just the nature of big trains in small places.

 

For Fastrack, I have often wondered if gluing some thick weatherstripping in the roadbed cavity would help. That would allow wires to be added or routed through it easier than the spray foam stuff and wouldn't be quite so permanent. Never priced it though. Perhaps that's why I haven't heard of anybody using it. Another slightly more labor intense idea would be to use the foam insulation for water pipesand cut them length wise. I bet that would fill in that gap pretty nice too.

 

Other options include reducing the noise of the trains themselves by running them slower or using engines with can motors instead of series wound motors (pullmors). Using longer straight track sections where they will fit will reduce noise at track joints and have the added benefit of having less electrical connections.

 

Hope some of this helps,

 

J White

 

[overall]

Every time I read one of these discussions on noise, I wish someone would use a noise meter (one that measures in decibels or db) and compare these various sound deadening methods by actually measuring the noise generated. The late Linn Westcott,editor of Model Railroader magazine years ago, did a test like this and published his findings. He found that homosote deadened sound the best. Things have changed since then and there may be some material out there that's better.

[mgraziani]

I would use a layer of homasote (grey, compressed, shredded paper in 4x8 sheet form) on top of the plywood. 

I wouldnt' let any track screws penetrate from the track all the way to the plywood layer.

I don't think that spray foams  in the underside cavity of Fastrack made much of a difference in some tests. It changed the pitch of the noise but didn't really reduce it.

I don't think that the blue and pink foam sheeting does all that much to reduce sound either when compared to homasote.

[rtraincollector]

I agree with you 100% but the flaw is a lot of areas homosote is not available and if you go into the big box hardware stores they look at you like what the heck you talking I've never hear of that 

[Southwest Limited]

jwse30, overall, mqraziani, rtraincollect, and srvoguy,

Thank you all for your responses.  It seems that there is no holy grail of sound reduction.  I did not want to build a table without asking someone that has already done it.

I am leaning towards sandwiching the homosote (I have access locally) between two boards to reduce the under the table sound as much as possible.  I want the top board to be stained and varnished to match cabinets, doors, trim, ect.....  I am not wanting a protype look other than the rails and roadbed (thus the interest in fastrack).

I am going to look at the gargrave brand track before I purchase any rails.  I used the flex track when I was young on an HO scale layout.

I will post some pictures when I have the table and track done.  It might be this fall as my work will reduce the amount of time available to spend on the table and track in the spring and summer season.

Once again thanks for all your help !!

John

[servoguy]

I suggest you might want to lay the FasTrack on whatever sound insulation you have and run the trains to make sure you like what you are building.  Run the trains before you screw everything down.

[brianel027]

The noise level of FasTrack has been discussed since its introduction. I know some have experimented with various methods of dropping the noise level, but I can't recall any one single idea that stuck out as being a winner.

FasTrack has been a success for Lionel and many have replaced other track with FasTrack... it obviously has some advantages. The FT switches have been well reviewed as amongst Lionel's best. The noise level of FT seems to also be one of personal tastes. Some argue trains are supposed to make rumble noise. Others say you can barely hear the engine Railsounds over the rumble.

I built a layout on a hollow core door using 027 track with a strip of self-adhesive insultation under each metal tie, and then added self made ties cut from brown foam - and am impressed with how quiet the layout is.

I stumbled upon this video review of the Lionel Santa Fe Flyer 0-8-0 set. But what is interesting is this really demonstrates the noise difference between tubular track and FasTrack. Although the 027 track in the video is entirely on carpet, some of the FasTrack is also. Watch the whole video or go to the two-minute mark to see the train running.

I tried to insert the video, but it's not showing. Here's a link to the clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIm2GGUA16E

[rtraincollector]

Thanks for the link the engine running on fastrack on the wood floor is what you will hear if you do the sandwich effect as it still will be on bare wood This what I was trying to explain to you. I wish brent would chime in lioneroar88

[lion88roar]

Been through this a 1,000 times.

75% of the sound you are hearing is NOT caused by FasTrack. It is caused by the hollow core rolling stock.

All layouts are going to have track noise... all of them. There are a number of items that come into play:

Room:
How is it built? Concrete block? Concrete floor? Drywall walls? Carpeted floor?

Layout construction:
Does the track rest on the floor? Is there framing? What is the framing made of? Is the framing finished? Etc, Etc, Etc.

Do NOT under any circumstances fill the 'void' under the FasTrack... esp with foam.

There is no need to wire each section of track to a buss. The track is very conductive and I've run an 8 ft x 16 ft loop with just 2 drops in the center of each 1/2 curve. Larger layouts may need drops every 4 to 6 feet, and mid incline, but that would be about it. Anything more and you are wasting money on wire.

Do not attach your track - no matter what it is - to wood or other hard surface. The screw will transfer the vibrations to the hard surface and create a 'drum-like' effect. What you do is cover the hard surface with a sound deadening material - foam sheets, sound stop, ceiling tile, etc. You then attach the track to the sound deadening material - not the hard surface.

To deaden sound further, fill the voids in your rolling stock with pillow fiber.

Welcome to the hobby and the forum!

[rtraincollector]

Thanks Brent