New Transformers and Phasing

[wrconstruction]

Are the new transformers with polarized plugs all ready in phase? 

I would assume they are?

My work bench looks like an atomic bomb went off on it or else Id check this my self.

Thanks Ryan

[rtraincollector]

not always if I remember right some of the cw-80s where the opposites.

[wrconstruction]

so then what? gotta trim the polarized plug to turn it around? 

Thanks for the response RT, I have a ton of CW-80's I was going to use for ACC and turnouts, but intend on common buss wiring

I'm currently on the If I have it, I'm using it kick...  LOL  nothing to be left in boxes, it all must be used!

Ryan

[rtraincollector]

I'm not 100% on this but seems like the older cw-80's were backwards from the rest Maybe someone else will chime in that knows better on it. I may be completely wrong lol

 

[KRM]

RT and Ryan,

 I am not sure what Phasing is ( on the cord or to the lockons) but I do know that some of but not all of the early CW80s were wired backwards for the horn and bell operation. If there is a G stamp in front of the date stamp melted into the bottom of the case on the CW80 it is a newer one and it is sure to be good. So if you have a good one Ryan hook it up as shown in the instructions, take your others and check them wired the same way and if they work correct, fine if not you need to switch the wire connections to the Lockon.

I think.

[ADCX Rob]

The phasing was not an issue, but which connection/binding posts were common, early CW's have the red posts common(A & B), later units have the black posts common(U & U).  I never did check the phasing between the two versions.

[wrconstruction]

Kev, phasing has to do with the polarity of the plug where you plug into the wall socket.  On a lay out as large as mine, common buss wiring will save me 40% on the wire alone. Of coarse, being in the scrap business, I didnt pay  any more than scrap value for it. 

I am guessing, with the multi levels, PCC, signaling, block detection, ACC, etc, I'm looking at over a mile if wire on this thing said and done. 

[KRM]

ADCX Rob

The phasing was not an issue, but which connection/binding posts were common, early CW's have the red posts common(A & B), later units have the black posts common(U & U).  I never did check the phasing between the two versions.

Ryan, What Rob is talking about is what I am talking about, But he makes it much more clear.

Thanks Rob.

[wrconstruction]

Thanks for all the answers, guys,   

ADCX  thats where I was confused, I had heard some thing about this, but confused it with polarity issues at the plug

THANKS

[lionelsoni]

Even if the transformers are wired absolutely identically, it is not certain that any two outlets in your house are in phase.  Even the two halves of a duplex outlet may be out of phase with each other.  (2011 NEC 210.4)

[bfskinner]

Back in the mists of time, Lionel established a convention where with transformers designed to run just one train (1033 for example) were to use the U terminal as "hot," whereas those designed to run two or more trains  (KW, ZW for example) used the U terminals as "ground" and the lettered posts as 'hot."

No living person seems to know why Lionel did this. (Not even yours truly, old as I am.) When Lionel first introduced the CW-80, it appears that they continued this ancient convention. After  all, the CW-80 has a single throttle handle and is designed to run one train. So the early examples had the U terminal (s) designated as hot and issued instructions to connect it to the center rail; whereas the A and B terminals were wired together internally and operators were advised to connect them to an outside rail or ground.

This confused operators who were more used to using U as ground, and apparently didn't believe in reading Owner's Manuals; but certain wiring configurations would not work at at all, some created havoc with "common ground" layouts, and some could even damage the transformer. To say the very least, this led to many hard-feelings and much misunderstanding. Some of the resulting hostility toward the CW-80 persists to this day, as unjustified as it now is.

With the so-called "G prefix" version, Lionel accepted the reality expected by many of its customers. The revised CW-80 transformer/controllers use the internally tied-together U terminals as "ground" (outside-rail) and the A terminal as "hot" or center-rail, just as one would expect with a postwar KW or ZW, etc.

Although the old convention can be found detailed in the old owner's and service manuals, I cannot provide an attribution for this explanation as it pertains to the early-version CW-80, i.e., the "why?" of it.

 Anybody got a better one?

 

[ADCX Rob]

Just a correction.

If the original CW(OR any CW, for that matter) was connected with "U" to the center rail, the whistle & bell functions would be transposed. 

The 2003 CW-80 Owners Manual contains a narrative on track connections which is correct, providing proper whistle & bell functions.  The diagram, however, is wrong, showing a reversed connection scheme, which would result in the switch between whistle & bell functions.

Prior to 1972, whistle & horn function/activation was not polarity sensitive for Lionel equipment.  With the introduction that year of the electronic whistle and in 1973 of the electronic horn, Lionel set the precedent, clearly, that a positive-to-center-rail bias/offset was required for activation. 

Fortunately, all postwar transformers were already built to this convention when the designated "common" post was connected to the outside rail(despite some erroneous schematics in the service manuals to the contrary).  This left the door open for the later introduction of the "bell" function utilizing the negative-to-center-rail bias/offset.

The work-around for using the early CW on common ground layouts, using "A" & "B" as common, works well as long as you accept that the whistle & bell functions will be transposed. 

[bfskinner]

Rob,

Thank you for your interest, However, I don't understand exactly what you have "corrected." There is one undeniable fact: the early CW-80s had posts A and B strapped together on the inside just like the four U terminals on a postwar ZW. The Owner's Manuals for these early CW-80s was also wrong and internally inconsistent.They even revised the Manual of at least one of their accessories saying it could not be used with the CW-80. Of course it could, but you had to be very careful or your tabletop wiring would contain a direct "hot" to "ground" short circuit..

Switches that used the CW-80's accessory posts to power the "fixed voltage plug" could easily be wired "backwards" causing a direct short, and on and on.  Combined with very poor quality control, the early CW-80s were frequently (far too frequently) unreliable. Some were dead straight out of the box. These shorcomings gave rise to witty but unhelpful comments about "doorstops," "boat anchors," "paper weights," and "targets" for rifle practice.

 If all that wasn't bad enough, Lionel had also produced a number of "look-alike transformers," such as the 30 watt PowerMax and the 40 watt PowerMax plus. These had nowhere near the power or features of the CW-80. Even the quite reliable BW-80 (with the power brick) was confused with it. Eventually, with the introduction of the G-prefix models and better quality control, Lionel managed to clear up the electrical problems, if not the public relations ones. Indeed, Lionel did precious little to deal with this, seeming to prefer silence or outright denial to being upfront about the problems and possible workarounds..

When the secondary new and used markets became filled with "little black Lionel transformers with the orange handle on the side" the public got ripped-off repeatedly by sellers who either didn't understand what they were selling or mis-represented it. Bargain hunters often received low-power, limited feature CW-30, 40, early pre-revision  CW-80s and even BW-80's without the power brick. This chaos persists to this day. Now, as you have noted elsewhere, Lionel plans to introduce a GW-180 (controller-and-brick) that, if it's not "vaporware" should be a very capable 180-watt device, but the controller will apparently look just like the BW, and CW types. I hope it is well marked this time, or folks with be selling BW-80s and misrepresenting them as GW-180s..

I knew of one person who took his CW-80 out of the box and did not immediately connect it to a layout, test-track or other load, but proceed to "test" its ouput with a  $7 basic voltmeter. When it didn't register he wrongfully concluded it was dead and tossed it out. Many folks continue to confuse some of it's positives with defects, e.g., as the operation of the fold-back-circuit or the ramp-up power feature. You can like these unique fearures or hate them, but at least understand them. I know you understand these things, Rob, because I have followed your posts for years on this and another forum. Keep up the good work.

My interest in the CW-80 was sparked several years ago when I realized there were problems which could be managed if one undersood the quirks of the early models. Lionel produced so many of the CW-80 and its look-alikes, and there was so much confusion about them that I hoped to be able to help folks who had gotten these things with holiday and other starter sets and who were often sorely disappointed. Upon reflection, I think it has been a fool's errand and I quit -- for the fourth or fifth time..

[ChiefEagles]

lionelsoni

Even if the transformers are wired absolutely identically, it is not certain that any two outlets in your house are in phase.  Even the two halves of a duplex outlet may be out of phase with each other.  (2011 NEC 210.4)

Why I run my own seperate circuit for transformers.  I actually feed to a small breaker box under the layout.  From "one side" of the box, I feed my outlets for transformers.  That breaker is also my "master switch" for power to the layuot.  Breaker on, power comes on.  Breaker off, complete layout is off.  If nothing else, feed off of one outlet and then use a power strip for the transformers.  That way, transformers will not experience the above.

[ADCX Rob]

bfskinner

... the early examples had the U terminal (s) designated as hot...

Have never seen such "designation", only the error in the manual pictorial diagrams, clearly a mistake since the whistle & bell functions would be switched and it directly contradicts the narrative on the same page.

bfskinner

... issued instructions to connect it("U") to the center rail; whereas the A and B terminals were wired together internally and operators were advised to connect them to an outside rail or ground...

Only in the erroneous pictorial diagram.  The narrative was correct, and made no mention of the internal connection.

[bfskinner]

"...only in the pictorial diagram?" A picture is worth a thousand words.

All I am saying that that the combination of poor quality control, internally inconsistent instructions, misleading color coding of the terminals themselves, the strange factory wiring, and Lionel's failure to clarify things from the outset, all combined to make for substantial confusion on the part of new owners of the EARLY CW-80s.

If it (meaning the combination of the above concerns) wasn't broken, why did Lionel ultimately fix it?

For what it's worth I still own and operate two very early models. I understand them. I know what they can and can't do and know what I must do to work around their faults. I like them enough to that I haven't personally upgraded to G-models -- although I did give a G to my grandchild. I ran a very early one as recently as yesterday. It worked flawlessly. I have always been extremely careful never to connect the two "hot" terminals to each other, either at the transformer itself or inadvertently out on the layout somewhere, which is VERY easy to do. And to be successful at that, you have to KNOW which is which.

I felt (and still feel that folks who bought the early ones) which in many cases disappointed themselves and more importantly their kids, might need some help. If my posts have helped even a single owner, then I have helped one owner. No more, no less. Overall I think tha's better than several of the clowns on the other major forum who continue to bash everything not MTH, and the Lionel "CW-80" (whether old or new, original or revised, true CW-80 or low-powered look-alike  etc.) remains among  their favorite targets. That is indisputable, and there are occasional vestiges of it on this forum too.

 

[ADCX Rob]

bfskinner

I have always been extremely careful never to connect the two "hot" terminals to each other, either at the transformer itself or inadvertently out on the layout somewhere, which is VERY easy to do.

That actually won't do any damage to a CW like it would to a postwar/conventional transformer.  The triacs won't mind it at all - if you were running a train all you would find was that it would start out at the level of the accessory setting, and the throttle would have no effect until its setting exceeded the accessory setting.

This was actually happening, like when you said folks were using fixed Acc. voltage for trackside accessories and switches - they couldn't figure out why they could not turn off the train.

[bfskinner]

OK, Rob, I don't pretend to know what triacs eat for breakfast, and I doubt it matters to most toy train operators.

What is absolutely clear and meaningful is that the EARLY CW-80s and their cock-a-mamie instructions made it extremely easy to inadvertently connect hot directly to ground somewhere on the layout. I think you'll agree that's a no-no.

If you like common-ground wiring schemes, and/or your layout uses a combination of pre-and post-revision CW-80s, or CW-80s and other transformers on your layout, you had better know for certain and keep track of the commons throughout the layout. This is especially true if you use accessories with metal bases that are are used as ground and may contact the track.

It also explains why even the early, pre-revision CW-80s worked "just"fine" for many people with simple layouts. All they had to do was connect the CW-80 to the track in the way that the whistle and bell buttons worked as marked.  

 

[wrconstruction]

I should have been clearer in my OP, all the CW 80's I have are date coded 1999 and newer.  

[rtraincollector]

[ADCX Rob]

wrconstruction

I should have been clearer in my OP, all the CW 80's I have are date coded 1999 and newer.

That only narrows it down to all of them!