We all know regardless of the manufacturer, nearly all engines these days come with varying levels of proprietary electronics packed into them depending on the product line. It seems at least to me that a wiser choice for consumers in terms of price points would be to offer a basic locomotive ( reverse) and then design it so add on's according to the buyer's needs could be simply installed by the consumer. It seems to me that lowering the price on locomotive as a basic unit, that could be added to seems to be preferable to having several product lines, all varying versions of the same product. Does this make sense to anyone else?
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
It makes sense to a lot of us as we buy Williams trains from retailers that offer them at a reduced price then add Electric railroad TMCC to it and rail sounds and coil couplers and all and get a real nice engine for less than you would end up paying for a compatible Lionel engines. now a lot don't have the extra detailing but that can be done too.
I have added tmcc to an old PRR trainmaster by Williams engine and coil couplers and sound. I have also bought Lionel engines with just tmcc and rail sounds and added coil couplers to them in fact one engine had tmcc and what they call signal sounds ( bell and horn) I added sounds( engine ,horn.bell as had to disconnect the other) and coil couplers to it. I have even added coil couplers to an old Lionel GP-9 dummy engine and directional lighting.
but what I think you were really meaning is you could go into your train dealer and tell him you want a GP-9 and he would start well the basic model is $135.00 if you want TMCC with it its $175 and if you want rail sounds with that it will now be $225 and if you want coil couplers with it it will now be $240 just to give an example probably be more but theres an idea how it would work.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
I would agree with you on that.
I'd go a step further even and suggest a train line that's completely stripped of circuit boards other than F,N,R. Remember when air whistles were "top of the line features" and not all Lionel starter sets came with an 0-8-0? Let's bring back the 2037's with added details and have starter sets like the kinds that got us hooked way back when.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
I'm with all of you -- and especially with Becky. But somehow I doubt that there'd be enough profit margin on a basic locomotive to get a manufacturer interested.
You captured what I was trying to get across. Especially in this economy if you could get the basic locomotive at a decent price, common sense tells me this is better than none or for that matter, from the other side, the seller, a sale of a product versus no sale. When the economy improves, or as finances dictate, a upgradable basic engine then could be added onto to, more like a platform than all or nothing at $800.00 or $1,000 plus per engine. It also takes the pressure off to get all the bells and whistles at once versus a more incremental approach. I went to Williams for this reason as well, you can always add what have you. Remember the after market detail makers like cal-scale etc,,,? Those sort of articles used to be "the thing" in HO..I haven't read anything on HO for years . Seldom in O scale except for the 2 rail scale side. .
rtraincollector It makes sense to a lot of us as we buy Williams trains from retailers that offer them at a reduced price then add Electric railroad TMCC to it and rail sounds and coil couplers and all and get a real nice engine for less than you would end up paying for a compatible Lionel engines. now a lot don't have the extra detailing but that can be done too. I have added tmcc to an old PRR trainmaster by Williams engine and coil couplers and sound. I have also bought Lionel engines with just tmcc and rail sounds and added coil couplers to them in fact one engine had tmcc and what they call signal sounds ( bell and horn) I added sounds( engine ,horn.bell as had to disconnect the other) and coil couplers to it. I have even added coil couplers to an old Lionel GP-9 dummy engine and directional lighting. but what I think you were really meaning is you could go into your train dealer and tell him you want a GP-9 and he would start well the basic model is $135.00 if you want TMCC with it its $175 and if you want rail sounds with that it will now be $225 and if you want coil couplers with it it will now be $240 just to give an example probably be more but theres an idea how it would work.
wallyworld You captured what I was trying to get across. Especially in this economy if you could get the basic locomotive at a decent price, common sense tells me this is better than none or for that matter, from the other side, the seller, a sale of a product versus no sale. When the economy improves, or as finances dictate, a upgradable basic engine then could be added onto to, more like a platform than all or nothing at $800.00 or $1,000 plus per engine. It also takes the pressure off to get all the bells and whistles at once versus a more incremental approach. I went to Williams for this reason as well, you can always add what have you. Remember the after market detail makers like cal-scale etc,,,? Those sort of articles used to be "the thing" in HO..I haven't read anything on HO for years . Seldom in O scale except for the 2 rail scale side. . rtraincollector: It makes sense to a lot of us as we buy Williams trains from retailers that offer them at a reduced price then add Electric railroad TMCC to it and rail sounds and coil couplers and all and get a real nice engine for less than you would end up paying for a compatible Lionel engines. now a lot don't have the extra detailing but that can be done too. I have added tmcc to an old PRR trainmaster by Williams engine and coil couplers and sound. I have also bought Lionel engines with just tmcc and rail sounds and added coil couplers to them in fact one engine had tmcc and what they call signal sounds ( bell and horn) I added sounds( engine ,horn.bell as had to disconnect the other) and coil couplers to it. I have even added coil couplers to an old Lionel GP-9 dummy engine and directional lighting. but what I think you were really meaning is you could go into your train dealer and tell him you want a GP-9 and he would start well the basic model is $135.00 if you want TMCC with it its $175 and if you want rail sounds with that it will now be $225 and if you want coil couplers with it it will now be $240 just to give an example probably be more but theres an idea how it would work.
rtraincollector: It makes sense to a lot of us as we buy Williams trains from retailers that offer them at a reduced price then add Electric railroad TMCC to it and rail sounds and coil couplers and all and get a real nice engine for less than you would end up paying for a compatible Lionel engines. now a lot don't have the extra detailing but that can be done too. I have added tmcc to an old PRR trainmaster by Williams engine and coil couplers and sound. I have also bought Lionel engines with just tmcc and rail sounds and added coil couplers to them in fact one engine had tmcc and what they call signal sounds ( bell and horn) I added sounds( engine ,horn.bell as had to disconnect the other) and coil couplers to it. I have even added coil couplers to an old Lionel GP-9 dummy engine and directional lighting. but what I think you were really meaning is you could go into your train dealer and tell him you want a GP-9 and he would start well the basic model is $135.00 if you want TMCC with it its $175 and if you want rail sounds with that it will now be $225 and if you want coil couplers with it it will now be $240 just to give an example probably be more but theres an idea how it would work.
Here is a pic of the engine that had just tmcc and rail sounds that I added the sound card to along with coil couplers behind it is a Williams B-Unit dummy which I will be adding coil couplers and lights (as it has the port holes so i think lights showing out of them would be cool) I may even try to fond wire/hand rails to add to it where the Lionel one has them or they should be on this one instead of the molded ones that are presently on it. I plan to paint the trucks on the Lionel Engine black to match the Williams as I like black trucks better just seem more real to me.
Yeah, I'm getting to like Williams a lot too. I think most of my modern engines will be coming from them from now on. I've always liked MTH, and I have many MTH engines. But most of the ones I have, have "lost their minds" and I just don't currently have the ability to get them repaired. So, I use the one working board I have from a gen-1 MTH 0-8-0 switcher that had whistle only to operate the 2 or 3 locos that the tether cable is compatable with. At least this way I can see engines like the Dreyfuss Hudson that cost me $500 in nineteenninetysomethingoranother turn their wheels!
But I think the inherent problem goes deeper than pricepoints. Sales decreased right along with the proliferation ratios of the real railroads. Less impact on daily life equals less interest in home railroading. Why should kids be interested in playing with a train when their only experience with them is of that "dirty, noisy, thing with the grafitti all over it that blocks the road when they're trying to get somewhere"? Passenger service sold toy trains. Dad, Grampa or Uncle Bob working for the railroad sold toy trains. Railroads were king during the heydey of the major manufacturers and sadly that's just not the case today. Sure, railroads are extremely important it's just that kids today don't often know about it. And even if they do ride trains often, they can now play video games or watch movies and don't have to bother with being involved in their surroundings. They don't know what Pullman's are, they've never seen a streamliner break the land speed record and just don't care because "everybody knows that airplanes are better than trains, cars and busses."
So who are the trains for? If not for Thomas, the Polar Express and Harry Potter most kids wouldn't know what a steam locomotive is. They're for us, the collectors and operators who have gone beyond the basics of plastic, toy-like sets and demand greater realism. But I also think the process has gotten out of control (between MTH and Lionel). They're getting too expensive and too complicated. What we need is the exact opposite: a competition to produce reliable starter type engines with better details than previously available. And in ALL gauges too, not just O. Bring back the #33 with 35 and 36 cars in Standard Gauge and attach a pricetag in line with calling it a starter set rather than a "reproduction". Bring on the scouts, the 2-6-4's and the small diesels and I'll start buying again!
Penny Trains Yeah, I'm getting to like Williams a lot too. I think most of my modern engines will be coming from them from now on. I've always liked MTH, and I have many MTH engines. But most of the ones I have, have "lost their minds" and I just don't currently have the ability to get them repaired. So, I use the one working board I have from a gen-1 MTH 0-8-0 switcher that had whistle only to operate the 2 or 3 locos that the tether cable is compatable with. At least this way I can see engines like the Dreyfuss Hudson that cost me $500 in nineteenninetysomethingoranother turn their wheels! But I think the inherent problem goes deeper than pricepoints. Sales decreased right along with the proliferation ratios of the real railroads. Less impact on daily life equals less interest in home railroading. Why should kids be interested in playing with a train when their only experience with them is of that "dirty, noisy, thing with the grafitti all over it that blocks the road when they're trying to get somewhere"? Passenger service sold toy trains. Dad, Grampa or Uncle Bob working for the railroad sold toy trains. Railroads were king during the heydey of the major manufacturers and sadly that's just not the case today. Sure, railroads are extremely important it's just that kids today don't often know about it. And even if they do ride trains often, they can now play video games or watch movies and don't have to bother with being involved in their surroundings. They don't know what Pullman's are, they've never seen a streamliner break the land speed record and just don't care because "everybody knows that airplanes are better than trains, cars and busses." So who are the trains for? If not for Thomas, the Polar Express and Harry Potter most kids wouldn't know what a steam locomotive is. They're for us, the collectors and operators who have gone beyond the basics of plastic, toy-like sets and demand greater realism. But I also think the process has gotten out of control (between MTH and Lionel). They're getting too expensive and too complicated. What we need is the exact opposite: a competition to produce reliable starter type engines with better details than previously available. And in ALL gauges too, not just O. Bring back the #33 with 35 and 36 cars in Standard Gauge and attach a pricetag in line with calling it a starter set rather than a "reproduction". Bring on the scouts, the 2-6-4's and the small diesels and I'll start buying again! Becky
I think the simultaneous disappearance of steam and the decline of model trains in that same period, as one wag in Trains magazine said railroads now are about as interesting as conveyor belts to kids, and at the same time space was the next leap for kid's imaginations. I think kids are the drivers no longer, and if you look at the cost of the hobby, beyond the set with a typical circle of track etc, plus a dedicated space to set all this up in, I think it all comes down to the decline of classic toys versus electronic toys. Kids can't flex their imaginations as much as we did and without that human side of going down to the depot, or having a conductor wave to you from a caboose, it may as well be trucks we are talking about. an all around narrowing of the market and so to me, a basic locomotive is one of the few things that something could be done about is a more affordable locomotive but with add on features...but them in the tender as plug and play modules. This all or nothing approach we have now, with $1,200 to $500 a shot versus Williams by Bachman, seems to call for a middle ground, an upgradable product. I think MTH going into large and HO scales as well as the European market says a lot about the market for O scale between the lines, and Lionel reaching back into their past or coming out with products whose costs are very high for a "toy" says a lot about this market. I think they lost the middle segment, the growth segment, kids and an upgradable engine could hit the sweet spot of the market that is an affordable approach for most consumers, it seems, otherwise I think MTH by Lionel is a inevitability ( based on name recognition) when this market "dies off". I am sixty years old and have nearly all scales and brands at one point or another, and I can see an end to this boom period in sight just based on demographics, and so the O market as a nostalgia niche market, like everything has a certain shelf life just based on common sense.
Interesting, thoughtful thread. I'm personally all for simplicity and 'basic-ness' but boy, do the youngsters like the sounds, smoke, and 'special effects' that some additional 'complications' add to the layout experience. I've been musing on the nice, relatively rugged basic-ness of Lionel's Thomas series - an anemic 'horn' but at least there's sound, change-out faces, moving eyes. and if a youngster inadvertently knocks Percy off the track with his elbow, hearts don't stop in apprehension. Maybe Thomas is a one-off experience because at least the kids are familiar with him. Though with his disappearance from the local PBS and other channels, it'll be interesting to see how long that lasts.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
My kids grew up with Thomas and they are now in their twenties, and if you go into Target or Walmart, this line of toys are still there in abundance, and have seemingly expanded in accessories, etc, all as add-ons which gives buyers a choice. When I think of Thomas, the voice of same or Percy, etc, the add on's for the Thomas line have yet to be capitalized on, or so it seems. Again, I am stuck in a groove maybe, but plug and play voices, etc would be a big seller as upgrades rather than again, the all or nothing approach, and I think basic models with add ons would be appealing to adults. The only option to those of us who do not have unlimited funds, (which I think Bachman was well aware of when surveying the market) was Williams or now Williams by Bachman who are no small time marketing novices. I look back at K Line and how they carved out a market with a back to the basics approach and the large aftermarket of sound systems etc that these can be upgraded with. Why not make a basic unit that can be upgraded? I sound like a broken record, so I'll end this well meant, non confrontational diatribe here. But, consider the source and expectations as I keep hoping someone revives Marx six inch tinplate. Lol.
Becky,
If you are having problems with MTH PS-1 or earlier engines, the best thing to do is to replace the circuit board, a Williams circuit board will work but you will have to cut a few and splice a few wires to make it work with an MTH engine. Or if you want to get just one direction only from your MTH engine you could remove the old circuit board and install a bridge rectifier with at least a 6 amp, 50 volt capacity. The bridge rectifier is the cheapest way to go, as these cost less than $5.00 each at Radio Shack, and will work with dual motor loco's.
Lee F.
There's always the option of ripping out the MTH electronics and installing the Electric RR TMCC/RailSounds package in that Railking locomotive.
gunrunnerjohn There's always the option of ripping out the MTH electronics and installing the Electric RR TMCC/RailSounds package in that Railking locomotive.
You say that you can add TMCC to something that don't have it? The last time I tried to get a ballpark estimate to update a TMCC ready engine, the price was around $220.00 plus shipping both ways, making it over $300.00, so I didn't do it. To me, adding something like command control is too expensive!!
I put e-units in mine.
Bob Nelson
Lee I'm Mr non electrical but I have installed both tmcc and sound for under $200 myself closer to like $155.00 plus shipping of parts less than$10.00 the better sound with tmcc is like $185 plus shipping now this has all in it you need . If I can do it you can. I'm infact getting comfortable installing these. and plan to do more heres the link to where I buy mine http://www.mttponline.com/
Bill is a good guy and post on here as boxcar bill
Exactly, and I think that's Wally's idea in a nutshell. Make great-looking and great-operating engines in 2 versions. #1 the top-of-the-line version with all the bells and whistles and a pricetag to match. And, #2 the stripped-down version for those of us that don't want the added cost.
But the best example I can think of as to why the manufacturers would NOT do it, is MTH's tinplate line. There's no price difference between Proto2 and Conventional engines, which doesn't make sense to me. If the electronics are what makes Premier and RailKing engines so expensive, why isn't there a price cut in the Standard Gauge realm to reflect this?
Just an opinion here Penny but its simple if you can get it with pro-to sound for same $ why wouldn't you its there way of forcing you to get proto sound and hope you buy there equipment to run it with. If not there still making the profit off you if you buy the conventional style.
RT,
I agree with you about buying an item with command control already built-in if the price is going to be the same or very close to the same without command control. For me, adding command control to anything is just tooo expensive, so I will buy it with command control or not buy it at all.
If something serious goes wrong with my PS-1 engine, that I can't fix for a few dollars, in all likely hoods it will get a 6 amp bridge rectifier and a True Blast-2 sound system from Williams/Bachmann. The engine is already 8 years old, so why put big bucks into it just to get it to run again?
Penny Trains Exactly, and I think that's Wally's idea in a nutshell. Make great-looking and great-operating engines in 2 versions. #1 the top-of-the-line version with all the bells and whistles and a pricetag to match. And, #2 the stripped-down version for those of us that don't want the added cost. But the best example I can think of as to why the manufacturers would NOT do it, is MTH's tinplate line. There's no price difference between Proto2 and Conventional engines, which doesn't make sense to me. If the electronics are what makes Premier and RailKing engines so expensive, why isn't there a price cut in the Standard Gauge realm to reflect this? Becky
With MTH or another company charging the same price to produce an engine with and/or without command control for the same price, basically it is that somebody gets paid on the assembly line an hourly figure, so it don't matter what the item gets something or not as you have to pay your employees.
I am in agreement with you Becky about pricing, but you have to understand big business. The bottom line is they have to pay people to assemble stuff, and they need to make a profit doing that. Many years ago things were differant, today the companies just want to show a profit for their shareholders, even in banking and finance.
Lee I understand what your saying but theres a problem in it. The cost of an item should reflect the the cost plus the so called profit they need to make off each one to sell it. so If your adding a $15 eunit ( there cost not ours ) or and $75 command control ( again there cost and all these figures are just numbers being thrown out to make the point) thus the engine cost $60.00 less to make with out command control and should be sold for about $40 less then with but What i think is actually happening here is there selling it with at the same price of without to one get cost down and know most will but it with since its the same price so they make 1000 with command control ( and theres to top it) and say 100 with out the ones with has very little profit but hoping those that do buy it that are basically Lionel fan will go out and buy there command control system which has a big profit in it already. thus this how they can do it even if you just get 100 out of the 1000 to do it your still making money.
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