Proper maintenance of Lionel turbine/berkshire motors

[TRAINCAT]

If your familiar with these motors what is the best way you have found to properly overhaul it? My main question is lubrication of the washers and thrust washers on the armature shafts and what lube type to put down the lube hole on top of the motor shaft case? Lionel recommended squirting their grease down that hole but I really do not see that as helping much as the shaft is inclined, not level. Would it not be best to squirt a bit of oil in there instead and let it flow back and forth before screwing down the motor again?

I have on hand, Lubriplate, labelle 106 grease, Lionel grease, and Lucas Red and Tacky. I have Labelle oil, 3 in 1, and a new synthetic oil a guy sells on Ebay. It is all apart and cleaned and ready for reassembly. I am looking for the best way you have found to reassemble it.

Roger

[ADCX Rob]

I use the Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2 extreme HP lithium based grease. I do use the grease hole, though, by injecting the Lucas into the motor with a syringe while the motor is running. I push it in until it just comes out both shaft ends.

The motors are very smooth & quiet, quieter than you would ever believe(the motor noise nearly goes away). I lube all the horizontal & slant motors(F-3s, Turbines, Berks) the same way.

Using the grease hole, inject the Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2 into the motor with a syringe while the motor is running. Push it in until it just comes out both shaft ends.

Use Lucas Red 'N Tacky #2 on the worm and worm wheel, in the pit below the little cover.

Use Mobil 1 or another synthetic oil on all axles & bushings.

And most importantly on these engines, use Mobil 1(or another synthetic) oil on the main side rods, as these actually do transmit power from the rear axle to the front three. Hit all rods/pivots with oil as long as you're at it.

[TRAINCAT]

Rob I have the small tip syringe for the red and tacky. How do you run in the motors so you can see when the grease comes out? Motor on the bench, or in chassis?

 

Roger

[servoguy]

Rob, I hope for your sake that the Red and Tacky doesn't dry out.  I can't imagine getting it out of the motor if it becomes hard.  

I use 5W-20 motor oil because I know it will never dry out.  I have 50+ years of experience using motor oil to lube trains.  

I was talking to a retired Chemical Engineer recently, and he said that the synthetic oils may harm paint.  I don't know this from personal experience.  I met him at a model railroad club that runs HO.

Bruce

[ADCX Rob]

trainrat

Rob I have the small tip syringe for the red and tacky.

It doesn't have to be a specific type of syringe, I use the ones that come with inkjet refill kits.

trainrat

How do you run in the motors so you can see when the grease comes out? Motor on the bench, or in chassis?

Roger

Either way.  Sometimes I have a loose motor that has been swapped out, but I run them installed too, both in forward & reverse.

servoguy

Rob, I hope for your sake that the Red and Tacky doesn't dry out.  I can't imagine getting it out of the motor if it becomes hard. 

It doesn't harden.  Lionel lubricant does get waxy.

servoguy

I use 5W-20 motor oil because I know it will never dry out.  I have 50+ years of experience using motor oil to lube trains. 

I use motor oil too.  I'm only in for 47 years, though.

servoguy

I was talking to a retired Chemical Engineer recently, and he said that the synthetic oils may harm paint.  I don't know this from personal experience.  I met him at a model railroad club that runs HO.

Bruce

Maybe, maybe not.  I don't use them on paint.  He would probably say the same thing about Lionel lubricants & oils, too, though.

[cwburfle]

Ask about how to lubricate a train, and/or what lubricant to use, and you'll get many answers, probably all valid.
I just tried some of the red and tacky that a number of folks like. I am not impressed.
I like labelle lubricants.
For your motor, I would clean out all the old gook from the ball bearing races, and pack them with Labelle 106 lubricant.
I would not put anything in the motor''s lubricant reservoir. I prefer to put some light oil directly on the sintered bearings at both ends of the motor.

Here is a link to a very well written article on maintaining  Lionel trains:

http://www.justtrains.com/Service/maint-main.asp

[ADCX Rob]

cwburfle

...I just tried some of the red and tacky that a number of folks like. I am not impressed...

Can you expand on this?

[TRAINCAT]

Thanks for the answers guys. My main concern was what to put on the washers and thrustwashers and what to put in the oil hole on top.  Thanks for the link to the JW train repair article CW.

Roger

[jackiejr1951]

Thank you very much for the web site info!  JackieJr

[servoguy]

I just looked at the web site about cleaning and lubing locos.  I wouldn't use Lionel Lube if you paid me.  I have many PW cars with dirty wheels, and it must be dried out Lionel lube.  Nothing else could possibly be on more than half of my cars.  I also think that whoever wrote the article makes it too difficult.  I usually just pull the brush plate, clean the accumulated crud off of the brush plate and brushes and commutator, clean the commutator slots, and put it all back together with a drop of 5W-20 on the commutator.  I then oil everything with 5W-20 and the engine is good to go for another 10 years or so.  If there is a large amount of dried out grease, I usually will remove it using WD-40 to soften it and brake clean to remove it.  I have a 2333 that had the gearboxes full of dried grease.  This took a while to clean all the dried grease out.  I oiled it with 5W-20 (including the commutator) and this is a very smooth running loco.  

BTW, some (all?) of the horizontal motors have ball bearing thrust bearings.  If you take them apart you may lose the balls as they are tiny!  

Bruce Baker

[cwburfle]

I just looked at the web site about cleaning and lubing locos.  I wouldn't use Lionel Lube if you paid me.  I have many PW cars with dirty wheels, and it must be dried out Lionel lube.

The site does not recommend using postwar Lionel lubricant. 
The author likes the current Lionel lubricant (completely different product), Cam shaft lube, and a couple of specialty oils.
The fellow who owns the site is among the most knowledgeable people I have ever mrun across when it comes to Lionel trains.
His servicing instructions are very thorugh, the caliber of work that should be done when someone is charging a premium price for performing service on a train.

I was thinking about trying the Cam shaft lube, but I am hesitant to use a black grease over concern about accidentally getting it where it doesn't belong and causing staining (things like clothing).

[TRAINCAT]

CW, cam lube, or "molly lube" can be found in white too but may take some looking.  As a racing engine builder I can tell you it will stay put and withstand heavy loads during bearing and cam shaft breakins. Some old racing guys used STP can lube too. That might be a possibility in some cases for trains.

Roger

[jsonova99]

I've rebuilt a few PW engines and used the Red n Tacky with good results.  I use Lionel oil on wheel bushings.  The PW engines that I have rebuilt to date are very quiet and smooth runners with the Red n Tacky.  I'm going to stick with it at this point.

[servoguy]

Does anyone have 40 years of experience with Red and Tacky?  Or with LaBelle products?  Or with the new Lionel products?

I don't think you need a moly grease or oil for Lionel trains.  It wouldn't hurt anything in the mechanical stuff, but it could very well stain the paint on something.  Moly is very slick which is why engine builders use it on camshafts.  I have used a moly oil additive in some engines with good results.

[cwburfle]

"Does anyone have 40 years of experience with Red and Tacky?  Or with LaBelle products?  Or with the new Lionel products?"

I have well over 40 years of experience repairing toy trains, including Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and more. That includes plenty of work for other people.
As I wrote earlier, I tried Red and Tacky, I guess it is OK, but I am not impressed. I cannot say when I started using Labelle products. I am fairly certain it's been over twenty years.
One of the arguements people sometimes make for Ted and Tacky is it's price. Well, given the price of "O" gauge trains, I am not going to worry about the cost of a tube of grease or container of oil.

I happened to be rebuilding a 610 motor yesterday. It came out of a junker I recently acquired. The engine must have been lubricated with automotive type grease. The odor was umistakeable. The stuff may be OK to use from a mechanical standpoint (don't know). Regardless, I don't want the odor in my house.

Even folks who are experienced would go well to read the information provided by Dennis:

http://www.justtrains.com/Service/maint-main.asp

[ADCX Rob]

Red 'N' Tacky is odorless.

And of course, you don't need to use moly or synthetic lubes, but you should want  to.  A lot of it depends on how the trains are stored & run, and also the size of the collection or fleet.  If you get up over 100-150-200 engines and 1000+ pieces of rolling stock, do you want to spend your entire waking hours doing maintenance?

[cwburfle]

[quote] If you get up over 100/150/200 engines and 1000+ pieces of rolling stock, do you want to spend your entire waking hours doing maintenance? {/quote]

I don't understand what this means.
 

[ADCX Rob]

It means $$$ !   Maintaining 100 locos is a lot more work than maintaining 3.

[cwburfle]

ADCX Rob

It means $$$ !   Maintaining 100 locos is a lot more work than maintaining 3.

From time to time (perhaps even in this thread) I have written that among the most common problem I see in repairs were caused by over lubrication, lubrication applied where it doesn't belong, or the use of an improper lubricant.
Even with maintaining over 100 locomotives, the cost of lubricant is minor when compared to the cost of the trains.

I don't know how long Red N'Tacky lasts as opposed to Labelle #106 or any other lubricant. I service my own stuff when I think it needs it, not on a schedules basis.
I expect that if the lubricants I used on other people's stuff wasn't lasting, I would have received complaints.  Hasn't happened.

I don't expect folks that perfer Red N'Tacky to switch to Labelle 106 on my say-so. And I am not trying to write that there is anything wrong with it. 

[servoguy]

I am thinking that one reason so many Lionel trains survived is that after a few years in the attic, the grease hardened and the train wouldn't run.  So the owners put it back in the box and left it in the attic or basement or wherever for 20+ years and then sold it or handed it down.  I have never seen damage from too much lubrication, but I have seen some from not enough.  Almost any oil or grease can be used to lube a Lionel train and will not damage it.  The question is, "How long will the lube last before the loco needs to be lubed again?"  I personally am not eager to take apart my 50+ locos every few years because the grease or oil dried out.  I doubt anyone could get any of the properties of LaBelle products or Red N' Tacky.  So what do you use to pick a particular product?  The word of the guy at the LHS?  Or even the word of LaBelle?  Motor oil meets SAE and other standards of major professional agencies and so the data is reliable.  

[cwburfle]

 I have never seen damage from too much lubrication, but I have seen some from not enough.  

Permanent damage - probably not, other than the lubricant getting all over a painted shell and ruining the finish.  However too much lubrication can foul mechanisms causing them to work poorly, or not at all.

Is fifty locomotives a lot?
I don't think I'll engage in mine's bigger than yours with Servoguy or Rob.

The word of the guy at the LHS?  

There were two local Hobby Shops, owned by  fellows who were expert repair men, and whose opinion I would certainly respect.  They are long closed. Both former owners are still around. We chat from time to time. I don't think we ever spoke about what sort of lubricants to use.
There were two additional shops (also closed) that had a pretty good repair person. I really couldn't go to him for advice. I would have been talking to myself :)