Madison Pacific #2 Loco & Tender----Lionel?

[j.mel]

Hi Everyone,

 I just obtained a very old style Madison Pacific # 2 Loco and tender. It appears to have a Lionel Engine in it due to the fact that is has the Lionel Plaque riveted to the bottom pick up/collector assembly.

 I can't find any info. on this loco and tender. Can anyone help me out? It is not listed in my Lionel Pre war catalog.

 It has the old funnel style smoke stack and looks like the Lionel General but it is not the General. It is made of metal. i will have pics in the near future, hopefully.

Thanks,

John ( j.mel)

[ZephyrOverland]

Hello,

You will get a better response if you repost your question in the Classic Toy Trains or Model Railroader forum.  The Classic Trains forum exclusively deals with prototype operations.

[SantaFe158]

This is the Classic Toy Trains forum.

[ZephyrOverland]

SantaFe158

This is the Classic Toy Trains forum.

This post originally appeared in the Classic Trains forum....

[Bob Keller]

Well, now that ZephyrOverland has established where this originated and confirmed where it is now ...

Without a photo or some other clues there is no way to identify the locomotive.  If Madison Pacific is painted on the model, it is probably a repaint (not an original paint job from Lionel). An image may provide more clues for the i.d.

[j.mel]

Hi,

 I hope this photo helps, it is very blurry I will try again later.

.

Thanks,

John

[j.mel]

[j.mel]

[Bob Keller]

I may stand to be corrected, but it isn't Lionel, Marx, Flyer, or Thomas. It  looks like someone simply used a Lionel two-axle motor to power either a kit (from the olden days), convert a long-forgotten two-rail engine to a three-rail engine,  or it is a scratch-built. 

[lionelsoni]

The tender is backwards.  The bonnet smokestack is more appropriate for wood firing, not coal.  I don't see a cowcatcher.  If there is a headlight, it is very small for a 19th-century locomotive.  From the image of a gear on its inside surface, the right rear driver appears not to be original to the motor.

[SantaFe158]

Definitely a Lionel motor and chassis under either a different manufacturers body or a scratch built body.

[j.mel]

The headlight and pilot are missing.

John

[SantaFe158]

Yeah, it's a nice looking locomotive if you can get a headlight and pilot for it.

[j.mel]

Hopefully I can come up with something for the pilot and headlight.

If anyone out there has some ideas where I can locate these items give me a shout. I think the set does have some character to it.

Thanks,

John

[SantaFe158]

Maybe something from the Lionel "General" type locomotives would work, I'd open the slats on the pilot, but it could look good on your locomotive if you wanted to do it at a low price.

[j.mel]

Hi Santa Fe,

 I have already browsed at the Lionel General and a Lionel General Kit for the cow catcher and the headlamp, but I believe the pilot is plastic on the General, I would like to get a metal pilot.

 I am hoping I can come up with something to make the engine complete again.

Thanks for the suggestions and please keep your eyes and mind open for possibilities.

Thanks Again,

John

[Bob Keller]

While it looks like there is a discoloration that might be a stub for a missing headlight, some old-timey locos didn't have the "cow catcher" but used a flat front - like later steamers - for brakemen to use. It might be intentionally flat on front.

 

[j.mel]

Ogaugeoverlord

While it looks like there is a discoloration that might be a stub for a missing headlight, some old-timey locos didn't have the "cow catcher" but used a flat front - like later steamers - for brakemen to use. It might be intentionally flat on front.

 

Hello,

 I believe the cow catcher or pilot is missing,with some type of headlamp, and a strut.

 There is a lantern missing off the left front of the loco but it is laying on the loco in the picture.

Thanks for the info., and keep it comming,

John

[j.mel]

Hello Everyone,

 Upon closer examination of this loco and tender, I disovered that they are all wood except the wheels, trucks, and Lionel Motor.

 These two pieces are really something different, you cannot tell they are made of wood unless you touch them, and than it is verty hard to tell, especially the boiler.

 I don't know if it was some type of kit, or it was hand made, it almost looks like it was hand made.

 If anyone come up with any info. on them, please by all means, let me know.

 I found the headlamp.

Thanks,

John

[phillyreading]

The engine looks like it is from a put together kit, however the engine looks a bit like a British steam engine and not an American.

The British or European engines use chain link couplings. American engines use primarily knuckle coupler style, or older Lionel used pin and box couplers, pre war(before WW-2).

Lee F.

[SantaFe158]

That's definitely an American style steam locomotive. The early locomotives (such as the 4-4-0's) used a link and pin coupler before they invented the much safer "knuckle" coupler. I can't tell what this locomotive has, but I'm pretty sure it's not a chain link. Just not a european style locomotive, the couplers aren't the only signal to this.

[lionelsoni]

From the latest picture, it seems that there was something glued to and broken off of the front.  I bet it was the cowcatcher.

A balloon stack would be very unlikely on a European locomotive.  It was an American expedient to allow wood firing.  A British locomotive would have had fenders over the drivers and possibly an outside frame:

The coupler on the front of a nineteenth-century American locomotive would have consisted of a long bar, swiveling from the locomotive frame at the top of the cowcatcher and ending in a loop, to go into the coupler pocket of the car ahead instead of a link.  When not in use, in would lie down along the center of the cowcatcher.

[j.mel]

[quote user="lionelsoni"]

From the latest picture, it seems that there was something glued to and broken off of the front.  I bet it was the cowcatcher.

A balloon stack would be very unlikely on a European locomotive.  It was an American expedient to allow wood firing.  A British locomotive would have had fenders over the drivers and possibly an outside frame:

The coupler on the front of a nineteenth-century American locomotive would have consisted of a long bar, swiveling from the locomotive frame at the top of the cowcatcher and ending in a loop, to go into the coupler pocket of the car ahead instead of a link.  When not in use, in would lie down along the center of the cowcatcher.

Hello,
 

The cow catcher is definitely missing off the front of the loco. I am looking for a wooden repalcement for the missing one.

 The detail to to this engine and tender is really great and the fact that I believe it is made of wood makes it nice for a static display.

 Keep the comments and the info. flowing.

Thanks again,

John