I don't have any Ross switches, but I do know a few people that have them. They really like them, as far as I know....no major issue with them. Have you thought of looking for some used #1122 027s??? Might be able to find a decent price on them.
If you can mate up to O gauge track from Super O track you can use adapter pins to mate to Gargraves or Ross Custom switches. The Gargraves switch is actually closer to 032 than 031 and the Gargraves 042 switch is closer to 043.5(43 & a half inches).
The only issues with using Gargraves with 031 or 042 track is a heigth issue as the gargraves switch is about the heigth of an 027 switch, so there is at least a 1/8 inch space that can cause problems with track heigth alignment, side to side is fine but the slope or grade can cause some issues for certain train cars or engines. What I find that works with Gargraves switches is to have about 30 inches between track style changes before a switch, or keep the transition area about 30 to 36 inches from a switch, only exception is 027 track as it is almost the exact heigth of Gargraves track.
Maybe you can use Gargraves track and switches for the mainline and use the Super O for a siding track or trolley line.
Try finding used Super O track at a train show, as it is out of production since the 50's.
Lee F.
I just thought of something else that might work, not for sure. Can you like kit-bash an older Super switch by using a DZ Industries DZ-1000 or DZ-2500 switch motor, what you would need to do if possible is to mount the DZ-1000 to the Super O switch somehow and replace the original switch motor. The DZ-1000 switch motors can be ordered from Ross Custom Switches website.
A couple of things you may want to try...
The O-27 switches, 1122/1122E/5121/1121 can be trimmed on the curve side to a 30 degree arc matching your Super O curves. You will need to relocate the non-derailing rail to an adjacent insulated Super O rail.
GarGraves & Ross are actually very close matches to Super O, the height being nearly identical and the rail section very similar. If you use some GarGraves flex track, you can add/cut fitter pieces to switches to match Super O geometry, or cut fitter sections of Super O curves & straights from broken or beat up pieces.
Although Super O has not been marketed since 1966 or made since about 1964, there is a surprising glut of it still on the market, especially on eBay, and any condition, at a fraction of the cost of FasTrack, even switches(manual & remote). Super O is also especially receptive to re-bending to custom radii.
You have a lot more options now than you did 30 years ago, by far.
Rob
Several ideas. First, Gene Becker can repair your Super O switches. He can be reached at: gbecker@comcast.net.
Second, take a look a the Super O Yahoo Group as an additional resource. 700 folks with an interest in Super O.
Mike Spanier
Well, if you are ready to get rid of your Super O, at a reasonable price, let me know what you have and how much you want. I am interested: hspanier@aol.com
I use a lot of Super "O" 112 switches and they work flawlessly. I can shed some light on the subject, after all, I have a ton of experience with Super "O". First, you did not state what the problem is with the switch other than they are inconsistant. What are the specifics? I can run my trains for hours on automatic non-derailing and NEVER have an issue with a 112 switch. All postwar Lionel switches have issues, but nothing that can't be addressed. I think the 1122 for O27 are the worst to work with because of the sharp raidus. The front trucks of a steam engine will not consistantly stay on the track if you use those. Plus they don't have the "fixed voltage" input which is one of the keys in getting a flawless operation. The original O gauge switches (022) are the of the highest quality of the three, but you still have to deal with the sharp 15.5" radius. So the Super "O" 112s with a little electronics added will out perforn any Lionel switch. I can testify to that. I own the original the 1964 Addam's Family Super "O" layout and the trains will run for hours swiching back and forth between the inner and outer loops with no derailments at full throttle from the ZW and pulling 13 cars. You can ask Mike Spainer, he has seen my 2 hour video demoing this.
I will tell you what. I have six #112 on my layout and they have never been worked and are factory originals. The only thing I did was change the clear lamps to make them look more beautiful at night. I made a DVD of this and the train(s) in operation. The beauty of the thing is no mods to the switches thereself are needed. The key is the power supply and the "electronics." This DVD will prove you wrong 100%. I think Lionel would like to get a hold of this DVD. Send me you address plus $5.00 (use Pay Pal) just cover the postage and I will send you the DVD. This DVD is not edited and 100% raw footage. You will see the trains run full throttle flawless for over a hour and a half untill I got tird of filming them. You may want to watch this action in fast motion. Or get a beer and watch the whole thing in real time. This will make you a believe that Lionel Super "O" is really the best track, period. After Mike Spainer saw this, he was floored!
Super "O" switchesI will tell you what...
Welcome to the forum.
This is a great place to exchange/share information of all types involving toy trains, operation/collecting, & otherwise, even technical tips and improvement methods, Super "O" included..
Is there any chance you will share your in-depth knowledge on improving 112/112R switch operation with the forum?
There are many folks here who have divulged nearly endless "secrets" to help their fellow hobbyists. Bob Nelson has given away many, many hot tips on improving operation of many Lionel items using mostly existing technology (that was in place from the 1930's into the 1970's) and then some.
We welcome your active participation here.
I love Super O track and switches. I would probably still be using Super O if Lionel made it in wider radius. Never had a problem with 112 switches that I couldn't fix. I know some people have fried 112 switches, but this usually happens when a circuit breaker fails. This can happen with any switch. the problem is that Super O 112 switches are riveted closed so the wiring is not accessible.
I've never really had a problem either, except for overheating which is usually operator error, but I like to know how to improve on anything when it's feasible. I hope "Switches" can come through and help those that do have questions or who have already expressed concerns.
The performance of the Super O switches that Super "O" Switches has is like nothing I have ever seen. Flawless for hours on end. Amazing demo. If you have an interest I would strongly recommend seeing what has been done. Not everyone can do it but once complete I have never seen anything like this.
Before I go any further with this and a picture is worth a1000 words, I want you to watch the DVD. Email me at cycloneracer@earthlink.net for mailing instructions.
Hi Taranwanderer, Cycloneracer is correct. His switches do work that well. However... the modification he does not needed. Basically he is using a control voltage at the control rails then powering coils on dc. That makes a poor contacting wheel be able to trip the non derail more efficently. That will not make up for other faults in the switch. I've been fooling with SuperO for 20 years. My layout has ten switches, both 112 & 112R. I regularly run trains 2 hours at a time without a single malfunction of the switches. The key is use fixed volts about 13-14v. Never ever get a switch wet, ever! Never ever use WD40 in the switch. It will harded into a wax like substace & is very hard to clean. Make sure the insulating pins to the control rails are in place. On 112 switches put a tiny bit of electrician's tape on the contact tab upper surface where it passes through the "window" in the control rail. Be quite careful in adjusting the contact fingers. Look & make sure they "average" level when viewed from the end. If the cam pin for the contact swivel is skewed you will not get good adjustment. Don't bend the pin. Bend finger tension (up/down) until pin is pointing straight up. If the control rail contact tabs are worn, broken, damage, cut them out. I have several switches without them & they work perfect. "Fluttering" of the swivel rails is always caused by a control rail having unwanted contact to ground. Either by missing or damaged insulating pin or contact tab. It is NEVER caused by the contact fingers inside the motor cover. Don't mess with them.! A shorted controller can cause fluttering, but disconnecting will test that. Once set up these switches are quite trouble free & long lasting. Make sure the swivel rail spring & the little coil spring on the rack gear are in place. Make sure the coil spring has enough tension. These can get weak or break in their old age. Make a new one by trimming a small spring to fit. This spring holds the swivel rails in the "latched" postion. Almost never is there a reason to take the switch bottom off. Very little to go wrong there. Always use track power feeders at all 3 branches. I would not recomend modifing the switches as cycloneracer does, as it's not needed & no reason to. Actually the main modification is in the controller, but no matter. Regarding the original post, if not SuperO switches, I'd use Atlas O switches with SuperO. Not costly, work well & Atlas now makes an electronic non-derail. Atlas O is same rail head height as SuperO. Connect by cutting off plastic connecting sockets. Trim plastic back under rail foot as needed. Connect using Atlas O track joiners. Squeeze center joiner to grab SuperO center rail. I've posted photos of all this on the Yahoo SuperO track group. On a seperate note, by a margin SuperO is the quietest, smoothest track system ever. Now!! good news is a few folks are working on 072 SuperO switches! Rebent SuperO to wider radius is also now readily available. In the next several months plans are to have 072 remote switches available also. SuperO used to be quite costly as trackage went. However many of the new track systems have skyrocketed in price making SuperO the bargin of premium track systems. At the same time it's compatable to all the postwar & modern Lionel accessories. The old roller wear issue is long past us. Trust me, not an issue with any modern loco or most postwar locos. The issue was with a few of the early post war locos & early rollers of the soft iron type. Most those locos have had the rollers already replaced anyway by this time. I've not had any wear issues with any of the repro rollers. I've installed lots to very good results. On a seperate note, with the installation of a few spacer washers behind the wheels you can run many Marx items through SuperO switches... Marx locos must have the later double reduction motors to pass. I've done this with both 4 wheel tin & 3/16 Marx. Simply remotored the old tin locos. Great fun! Might be time to take a look at a vintage track system. SuperO was the very best Lionel made & still works great while being cost effective. Many feel it's still the best looking 3 rail track ever made. It just has the "look".
Good luck, superodon
Let me set the record straight for Super "O" Don... My Super "O" switches are not modified what so ever. All connections hook to the original lugs and the controllers are hooked up to the switches as stated in the Lionel instruction book. There are no mods to the controllers either. I am a purist by all means of the word. So that means everything is 100% stock except for the DC voltage supply to the fixed voltage connection and the electronics which just parallels the controller connections to the switch.
Don cannot possibly get the results that I am achieving with what he has suggested to do. His suggestions will help, but there will still be issues. I use DC simply because it has more working energy at a lower voltage level. This is because it is not a sine wave switching the power “off “and “on” 120 times a second. Don't miss understand, I am using pure filtered and regulated DC and not just a rectified sine wave. If you did that, you would still have the same issues as AC!
At 11 volts DC my switches throw flawlessly with a nice snapping action not to mention the huge favor I am doing for the lamps. I'm sure Don gets the results he wants by running the trains slowly and not sending them through a path which makes the switches get a big work out. Also certain engines will cause a non-derailing command to not throw the swivel rail all the way with Don's set up. The problem lies with steam engines with light-weight lead trucks. As a truck approaches a control rail, they bounce as they contact the control rail. This will cause the swivel rail to not "lock." Here is a little theory… the DC resistance of a switch motor coil is 4 ohms. If the connection between the front trucks of a steam engine and the control rail makes a contact of 4 ohms (which normally you could call that a direct connection) 1/2 of the power is now being applied to the switch motor whether you are using AC or DC power. Now that is a problem and I address that with my electronics, more on that in a minute. Also with an AC power supply the sine wave is crossing "0 volts" 120 times a second. The odds of the train hitting the control rail at this point of time are very good. So at that moment of time, there is no voltage for the switch motor. Full power will not be coming for about another 4 ms!
I hooked up a Super "O" switch to my scope to measure the time it takes for the swivel rail to get from one side to the other using DC. The measured time was 10ms. Get this …one sine wave cycle is 16.6ms. So basically you have one sine wave cycle to completing a throw if you are using AC. Now if the control rail is tripped at the peak of the sine wave full power is available to throw the swivel rail. If it occurs at zero crossing then you may have problems of the swivel rail not completing its travel or and both lights on the controller getting stuck on which will cook the coils of your motors whether you are using AC or DC. Without an automatic power shut down (which my electronic circuit supplies,) the DC will burn the coil up a lot faster than AC. My circuit monitors the current to all the motors. If any switch is caught with the coil energized for more than a few seconds, power is cut to the switches to save those precious motors. I’m sure several of you Super “O” guys have unfortunately melted the coil of a switch and probably using AC too.
The other issue of using the stock set up as Don mentioned he gets flawless results is… if a train is ran at high speed at a open switch, the swivel rail cannot respond fast enough and a derailment is a certainty. The way I get around this is I use one insulated section ahead of the switch. I’m sure everybody knows that trick since it is listed in the Lionel instruction book. But I take it several levels higher. Keep in mind the 4 ohm coil resistance I mention above. With my electronics, I amplify the control rail signal making the rail 1000s of times more sensitive. I can switch a swivel rail with just 10,000 ohms between the engine’s pilot truck and the insulated section. Also the electronics is edge sensitive so it will “de-bounce” a leading truck sending an ideal solid control voltage to the coil. Another great advantage is there are no sparks flying off the trucks as they travel through the control rail. This will eliminate that carbon build up on the wheels I sure everyone is familiar with. I use this same system to activate all my accessories. My system will work with the “O” gauge switches too.
I can run the trains at a open switch at full throttle all day and the switch will throw all the time flawlessly. There is no way Don can make that claim. If you think he is correct, then test it. Make a simple layout using two Super “O” switches such as the 1964 Hudson set layout. Cross wire the switches as shown in the Lionel instruction book to make the switches throw the train from the outside to inside loop alternately automatically. Run the train at any speed of your desire and watch how fast it will derail. If you want to speed up the test, use a steam engine. Or just take a very light car like a caboose positioned several feet from a switch and shove fast so it will coast through the switch quickly. You will find the switch will not respone correctly every time hence a derailment. There is no way the train will run all day like Don states with his setup, where mine will. Mine will pass the caboose through every time too. I have tested Super "O" with and without my electronics.. My electronics permanently fix any issues with the Super “O” switches period. If you still don’t believe it I would suggest you to buy the 2 hour DVD from me and see for yourself. I have the system shown on video running a 2020 for hours with the switches throwing constantly around the layout. Let’s see Don do that. Or just ask Mike Spanier – he has seen it with his own eyes for sure.
I agree 100% that your system works good. That is not the question. What I'm saying is it is not needed. I run my trains at a regular toy train speed. Not slow scale speeds. Dc will not fix a problem with a switch. Your control system simply makes the non-derail more efficiant. Again, no matter. On a good swtich the non-derail just works fine. Yes, I agree dc works well with many Lionel accessories powered by solnoids. Yes, your control system is good for wheel contact on insulated rails. Again, they work fine without it. Dc does eliminates the buzz.
On the mention of Mike Spainier, are you saying he's been to your home & personally observed your layout? Or do you mean you sent him your vidio? That intrests me. He is indeed Mr. SuperO.
Very best, superodon
Don I don't agree with you at all on not needing the electronics on the switches. Let me tell you a story… I have had Lionel trains since 1958. When I was a kid my dad would build a layout that would utilize the non-derailing feature to the hilt. When I was running a 2020, I would be lucky if it made it through the circuit once without a derailment at a switch. If I used my cheap Lionel Alco unit it made it through the circuit sometime – not reliable for sure. I would ask my dad to fix it and he did not have the answer. It was so frustrating. I just had to accept that is the way it is.
So when I set out to build the Addams Family layout, it was going to be a test for Super “O” switches since I have never used them before. I could not wait to get a train on the track to see how “good” it would run. After all Lionel states Super “O” is the very best track and the trains run better on Super “O”, right? Using the manual controller to guide the train through the two loop circuit and trestle, I relied on the non-derailing to close an open switch. I was lucky to see the train make it through the complete circuit once without a derailment because of a non-derailing failure. I even unknowingly melted one of the switch motor coils within the first hour of testing because one switch got stuck on. That switch did not have a controller connected to it so I had no idea it was cooking till I smelt it. By then it was too late.
Since this layout was for my 5 year old nephew, I could not have it doing that. Since I am a lot wiser now than when I was a kid, I designed my way around the issue. My criteria for the design were not to modify the Lionel equipment itself. The sheer physics of the non-derailing system is a problematic for sure. Even under ideal conditions, throw a steam engine at it and it will not be reliable. Now add a little wheel carbon/dirt or oxidation to the mix and the system will fail a lot. All Lionel switches with non-derailing have the issue. It’s just the Super “O” switches are a little more sensitive.
You must not be an electronic guy otherwise you would understand why DC is the answer to ½ of the issue. The other being the almost short you have to supply at the control rail to get desirable results. Both of these requirements are met with my circuit. I even throw in a current monitoring protection system for coil protection. You are running yours unprotected. And yes they will burn up on AC if both lights get stuck on. I can vouch for that.
Too bad I could not talk to you in person. I would convince you. I guess we will just have to leave it as you see it your way and I see it mine. I would sell these systems if I had money to put them into production. But I don’t. And making just one or two would cost more than someone would want to pay. All I can say is it’s uncanny to watch it work.
As for Mike Spanier… He supplied all the track and switches for my Addams Family layout. I got a phone call from him because he was so intrigued with what I had created. He was in my area a year or so ago, but did not have time to stop by so he opted for the DVD.
Super "O" switchesBefore I go any further with this and a picture is worth a1000 words, I want you to watch the DVD. Email me at cycloneracer@earthlink.net for mailing instructions.
Any aversion to posting a video excerpt to YouTube for us?
Rob I have no way to do that since my computer does not accept DVDs. The DVD is about 2 hours of the trains running non-stop. There is an explaination at the front of the DVD covering the electronics. Then there's a train change from an a Santa Fe F-3 to a 2020 steam engine to show the impossible. I think You Tube only allows 10 minutes. From that point the rest would have to be spread over 12 videos, It would be pointless to just show 10 minutes. I'm sure Don can get his to run 10 minutes without a derailment with his stock set-up..
Super I think You Tube only allows 10 minutes...
Any chance now that we can convice you to upload your video to YouTube in, like, 30 minute segments?
"Switches", have you upgraded your computer equipment yet? We would still like to see how you've mastered this aspect of Super-O operation.
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