Apologies in advance for my ignorance, but it has been 30 years since my brother and I built our large HO model railroad layout and I am rusty on how to troubleshoot short circuits and have no prior exerience with lionel TMCC. I am getting my son into model railroading and due to space limitations, we are starting with a wall-mounted system.
What I have set up is an approximately 60 foot outer loop that runs along the outer wall of his room and through tunnels in and out of his closet. I have 4 turnouts - two that create an inner loop to bypass the tunnels going in/out of the closet and two that make a very small short cut on the other end of the layout where the room narrows which creates a small inner loop there too.
Everything has gone great so far in constructing the shelves, tunnels, track and wiring infrastructure. I have a 135 watt PH-1 powering a PM-1 that is connected in concert with the Trainmaster command base. I have re-wired the turnouts to be suited for fixed voltage per the TMCC instructions and they are powered by a separate 40 watt lionel transformer. I have my accessories and the TMCC accessories (SC-1 and Remote Action Controller) powered by another old 40-watt lionel transformer. The Cab-1 is working as I can tell all signals are being transmitted and throttle control and switches are being triggered, but that is where my trouble starts. My turnouts seem to lack the power to operate (I can hear them activate, but they seem to lack the power to throw the switch). The worst part is that when I power up the PH-1 unit to run a train and turn the throttle in conventional mode (or switch the PM-1 to command mode), it immediately trips its circuit breaker which I take to mean that I have a short somewhere in the layout. I have spent hours tracing the wiring and track layout and see no reason for a short circuit. To distribute power evenly, I added an 18 gauge bus wire that is connected to the center and outer rails appropriately every 6 feet or so per online forum recommendations. All that did was speed up the time it took to trip the breaker on the PH-1.
My desparate cry for help is three-fold: (1) is there something inherantly wrong with my setup that is causing the PH-1 to trip and turnouts not to function (like is the 135 watt PH-1 enough power?) (2) it is not necessary to run isolated blocks if all I really want to do initially is run one train at a time, correct? (3) if advised that my problem seems like a short circuit, what is the best method of trying to isolate a short circuit in the track (I am rusty on that kind of troubleshooting and have no experience with 3-rail systems. THANKS IN ADVANCE TO ANY HELP THAT CAN BE OFFERED. My son is dying with anticipation to see a train run after 5 weeks of set up.
Are all the tranformers in phase with each other? I would suggest trying the track power only to verify train operations. If that works, then bring up one of the 40 watt transformers. I am thinking that either a transformer is not phased correctly or a turnout feed has a crossed wire. I have a ZW for track power with TMCC and 2 CW80s powering the accessories. My turnouts are fastrack and powered by track power. Do you have all of the transformers plugged into one powerstrip to make sure they are in phase?
I hope this helps.
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Command base wire is connected to outside rail [common]?????
I use a KW for switch power but yours should work if you have about 16 to 18 V.
I think your wiring is too small.
With no trains, does it trip???
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
3 things, no make that 4, come immediately to mind - you are not using FasTrack, you may be trying to power the SC-1 with two competing power supplies, your 40 watt starter set transformer is too small for powering the switches in command(SC-1) mode, and you are running TrainMaster in conventional, not TMCC mode.
What engines, track , switches, & specific transformers are you using? How old is the track & where did you get it?
As alluded to above, isolate all power - disconnect everything except power to the trains. Disconnect the Command Base too, it's not needed to run TrainMaster conventional(non command)... just the PH-1 & PM-1. Operate the switches manually for a while until you get up & running, and then start connecting back the other components one at a time in a logical sequence.
Let us know when you get the train running.
Rob
Unless there's something special about TMCC, having accessory transformers in phase with the track is not usually necessary.
Eighteen AWG wire is not even as good as the track itself. Your wire should be sized to be safe at the overcurrent protection provided by your transformer and big enough to reduce any voltage drop to a tolerable level. However, I doubt that that is your immediate problem. Even if you don't run conventionally, having your track divided into blocks is very useful for locating short circuits, as you are probably now all too painfully aware.
Bob Nelson
Thanks to everyone for the help and information. I will try to take up each of your good questions in separate replies to make sure I am getting you all the information you need to diagnose this deal. I went with just track power only (ph-1 and pm-1 only) and it still trips with or without a train on the track. Your comment about a potential crossed wire on a turnout sounded plausible, so I just took out the wiring to the switches so they are fully manual. It still trips. They should not be the problem, right? One of my initial questions that still lingers is whether it is okay that I used turnouts without using blocks. That is fine as long as I don't reverse the loop back on itself, correct? I just have two short cuts on each ends of the loop using four turnouts so I assumed I would be fine. Is it more clear that I have a short somewhere now or is there another potential issue somewhere?
Thanks for the reply. It trips with or without a train. I took out the command base and still have the same problem. My wiring might turn out to be too small, but that should not make it trip even when a train is not on the track, right?
Per my response to Captaincog, I took it all down to just track power and manual switches and it still trips. What is the best way to go about locating a short?
You probably have a missing rail insulator between the center rail and one of the track ties.You can inspect the track carefully - visually - or start with one piece of track connected to your power and add a section until the breaker pops. When it pops, the last track section is the defective one.One more thought - I saw your post about reverse loop concerns... do you have the PM-1 "A" post connected to the center rail, and the "U" post connected to one outer rail? With three rail Lionel trains, there is no concern with short circuits in reverse loops.
What kind of track are you using & how old is it?
The missing or mis-located center rail insulator is a distinct possibility. You could separate your track into several sections and check for continuity between the center rail and outer rail. With no train on the track, there should be none.
Might try taking the switches out of the track one at a time. You might have an internal short in the anti-derailing circuitry in the switch. Most remote control Lionel switches are set up to automatically throw the switch if a train approches from the 'wrong' direction. This is done with an insulated outer rail (the short ones, that make a 'V' shape) that uses the wheels and axle of the train to complete a circuit to the other outer rail to throw the switch.
Thanks to all for the good ideas on finding the short. I did some serious troubleshooting tonight with the approach suggested and located what I thought was a problem with one of the switches. Then it stopped being a problem and the train had power. I had trouble controlling the speed with my Cab-1 because the slowest speed was still too slow and the "Aux-0" trick to stop power to the track did not work. Nor could I seem to slow it down by setting the stall to "low".
Then the Cab-1 stopped being my problem and I started to have short circuits again, but I quickly isolated the same switch as the problem. Would it indicate the antiderailing wiring as a problem if the switch only shorts when it has rail connected on both the straight ends and it only shorts when you add a straight to the side that has the insulating pin? Note that it does not short out when the rail to the turn out is connected and the other non-insulated straight is connected. I also made sure that no rail problems exist on any side of the switch. Could it just be that the switch only short circuits some times.
Assuming I get the switch replaced and everything works, how do I troubleshoot the Cab-1 problem. Again, it seems to be adjusting speed down, but just not down far enough and the "Aux-0" and "Halt" buttons are not working to cut power. Ideas?
Reprogram your PowerMaster to TRack 1 with the Program/Run switch on "Program". Switch it to "Run". Now program your stall speed to zero and set, and your momentum to "L" & set. Leaving the Program/Run switch on "Program" often causes the symptoms you describe, your momentum & stall speeds will be erratic.
All is well. It turned out to be one of the turnouts anti-derailing circuitry. I have swapped out the turnout and train is running fine on all parts of the layout. My boy is very excited (so is dad). Thanks to everyone for pitching in advice and, most of all, for being patient with the uninitiated.
I have a couple of planning questions as I moved to the next phase of the project:
1. Can I use the same power source to power the SC-1 and the turnouts? Is there an electrical reason why they should be separately powered or powered together?
2. Can you still have CAB-1 control of turnouts while running a train in conventional mode (all on one block)? Stated another way, do you have to be running a TMCC locomotive to have remote control of switches on the same block?
I can't help you with any of your issues but I want to thank you for "reading my mind"! You seem to be asking a lot of the same questions that I have since I to am a TMCC "newbie/wannabe"! I am glad you are achieving the results you search for. You have definatly come to the right place. This bunch has helped me more times than I can count. At times I am afraid to ask any more questions in fear of wearing out my the welcome mat!
Continued success on you project!
austinwilson1. Can I use the same power source to power the SC-1 and the turnouts? Is there an electrical reason why they should be separately powered or powered together?
If your switches are powered by a fixed voltage source there is no need for separate power for the SC-1... the SC-1 wall wart(AC adapter) is only needed if you are powering accessories only - no switches - from an SC-1.
If the switches are track powered, then the SC-1 wall wart(AC adapter) should be used to give consistent operation of the SC-1 & accessories while the train is stopped.
austinwilson2. Can you still have CAB-1 control of turnouts while running a train in conventional mode (all on one block)?
Yes.
austinwilsonStated another way, do you have to be running a TMCC locomotive to have remote control of switches on the same block?
No.
Austin,
Been following your progress. There is/was a site that can be an excellent source of info that may help you in your planning and continued expansion. They have online tutorials that I found to be very helpful when first starting in TMCC, www.coilcouplers.com . Hope it can be of help, as well as lots of support here.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
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Proud New Member Of The NRA
TRAINS GREAT. SWITCHES NOT SO MUCH. Things are going great with the track. Things work in both conventional mode with a conventional engine and in TMCC mode with my new TMCC engine. The boy is very happy and so is dad. We are still hung up on 0-27 switch power, however. I wired them just as instructed for fixed voltage, linked up the switches' jumpers with 16 gauge wire back to the transformer and connected the common terminal to the outer rail, but still no success. We aren't getting any short circuits, but it just seems like we aren't getting enough power to the switches to run them with our 80 or 40 Watt transformers. I received different opinions in response to my original post about whether I had adequate power so I am at a loss. What kind of fixed voltage power source should I buy if these transformers won't do the trick?
Yes, the CoilCouplers site is great. In fact, it is the site that convince me to go to TMCC because of the features demo and apparent ease of set-up. I am sold on TMCC for sure, but I can't find help there or elsewhere on how to get these turnouts working. The ASC is clearly getting the signal from the CAB-1 to open or close a turnout switch and makes a clicking sound, but the switches are not responding.
Trains still running great, as well as two turnouts, but I still have two not responding at all. I originally thought I had too little power, but that is clearly not the case as the turnout on the opposite end of the layout is working great (as is the closest turnout). The other two aren't working. One not at all. The other, only one coil it seems (because it moves the turnout one direction, but not the other (and the anti-derailing feature moves in one direction, but not the other - which tells me it is not the wiring to the TMCC system, but rather than turnout itself).
Bottom line, I need advice on how to test the coils. Is it possible that they would have been burned up when the bad switch I replaced was short circuiting? That seems a bit fragile. What is the warranty on lionel switches?
The warranty is over now with the modifications made to the switches.The switch solenoid coils should be around 13.5 ohms +/- 10%.Rob
austinwilson, can you exchange a working turnout and put the one not working in its place if it works its your wiring to that particular location you removed it from. just a thought to try
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