Williams "scale" rolling stock

[Deputy]

I have a 2007 Williams catalog and looking at their rolling stock, I see 40' boxcars, gondolas, stock cars, refrigerator cars, hopper cars, and tank cars all listed as "scale". So my question is easy...are these 40 foot cars "scale"? Or is Williams fibbing just a little bit and playing fast and loose with the term "scale"?
I looked at their locos and the dimensions for those listed as scale looks correct.

Dep

[ben10ben]

I don't have a Williams catalog, so I don't know if they list dimensions for everything.

However, a 40 foot long prototype would be 10" long in O scale. If the dimensions are listed, and the car is in the neighborhood of 10" long, it should be at least close to scale. 

[Deputy]

I don't have a Williams catalog, so I don't know if they list dimensions for everything.

However, a 40 foot long prototype would be 10" long in O scale. If the dimensions are listed, and the car is in the neighborhood of 10" long, it should be at least close to scale. 

Then are the postwar Lionel boxcars that are 10 inches long and listed as "traditional size" also considered as scale? I thought the PS-1 were the scale size boxcars and they are 11 inches and longer depending on type. Gotta be more than just length taken into consideration to measure scale size. I would think height and width come into play. All the Williams cars I listed are shown as 10 inches long in their catalog. I assume they haven't made any major changes since Bachman took over. 

 

[overall]

I think that these cars use the old Kusan tooling which was not exactly scale. They are, however, well done. I have some of them and enjoy running them.

George

[chuck]

The Williams cars are "scale" but that doesn't mean they are a match to a specific protoype (e.g. PS-1).  They look more like earlier 1930's versions of AAR boxcars which weren't as tall. 

Some of the Lionel "Traditional cars are scale, but they are scaled for prewar prototypes that were significantly smaller than modern day counterparts.  Some of these smaller cars were still in use in the early to mid sixties (railroads hate to throw anything away) until saftey or maintenance issues forced their removal from sevice. 

If the cars reporting marks match the dimensions of the model then technically the model is "scale".  This doesn't mean it's accurate (doors,roof panels, sheet welds could be all wrong) or prototypical (neither Railbox norAmtrak never fielded cars with full height end ladders or Bettendorf trucks), it just means it's scale.

[Deputy]

Thanks Chuck...I think I understand what Williams means now.

[brianel027]

Deputy, outisde of some of the larger Williams locomtives, most of the Williams rolling stock is more along the lines of traditionally sized. The flat cars, tank cars and gondolas are modeled after the postwar Lionel versions. Their box cars and reefers are a little longer, taller and wider than the Lionel 6464, but don't look too out of place with them.

As far as the term "scale" we all know liberties have been taken with that now popular catch phrase. Remember a few years back when K-Line was taking some grief for calling cars "scale" when in fact they were not quite full-scale. There were threads at that time on the other forum calling for more accuracy from K-Line between scale and semi-scale.

Not so far off from the term "027" ... even Lionel for a time was listing separate sale locomotives like the GP9 as minimum 031 radius when they in fact could run on 027 curves and clear the switches. As one train company insider told me, there was a negative connotation with the term "027" with many of today's train buyers that equals "toy."

As a little more of a clarification, when Crown Model Products introduced their line of box cars, reefers and wood-side outside braced box cars, they were modeled after older actual prototypes that really were smaller cars. Therefore, while being "full scale" the cars were still small enough to not look out of place with normal traditionally sized trains. A point CMP made in their promotion, and a point made in the magazine reviews of the CMP cars. These dies have since been purchased by Weaver and are now being made by them.

[phillyreading]

Not sure if the 40 foot boxcars are scale or not. Most of the Williams engines I have seem to be up to full scale, at least the SD-45's and GP-9's.

Far as I am concerned, Williams is a good product at a good price.

Lee F.

[Deputy]

I have a couple of Williams locos and have no complaints about them. And yes, I think many of the locos actually are scale. I compared the sizing to other locos from Lionel and MTH and they appear to be identical, although less detailed. There is a thread on the other forum where they compare scale GG-1s from different makers and the scale Williams GG-1 is the same length as the others (although Lionel is more precise in scale than the rest, their GG-1 evidently has some problems navigating some switches.). I also checked the Williams scale Hudson and the length appears to be correct when compared to Lionel/MTH. I was just a bit suspicious about ALL their rolling stock being 10 inches long and (except cabooses) being described as "scale" in their catalog.

Brian: I actually have one scale K-Line Pennsy N5C caboose and I was shocked at the amount of detail and quality of manufacture. I compared it with a scale MTH version and it appears to be the same length/width/height. Plus it is illuminated and smokes and has the roof antenna. Didn't know that some of their scale stuff was questionable.

[phillyreading]

I only have one caboose made by Williams, and like some others have said it lacks some detail.

I like the cabooses made by either Lionel or MTH, but can't afford them right now.

Lee F.

[Deputy]

I only have one caboose made by Williams, and like some others have said it lacks some detail.

I like the cabooses made by either Lionel or MTH, but can't afford them right now.

Lee F.

Lee: check out Ebay for K-Line cabooses. They have a lot and the prices are quite reasonable. Some are scale and some are traditional. They all seem to be nicely detailed. I wish the original K-Line was still in business. They made some road names that Lionel and MTH seem to neglect.

[phillyreading]

Deputy,

Thanks for the info!

I would love to be able to afford anything right now but insurance has knocked the stuffing out of my financial situation for at least four months! Merry Grinchmas to the Insurance Pirates!! Don't know if I can even pay the electric bill after the insurance bill, have to get help, maybe credit card cash advance.

Lee F.