2332 GG1 Questions

[Anonymous]

I just purchased a 2332 GG1 that is all original. I have some questions:

1.  How to I take the locmotive apart to clean it?

2.  The stripes and lettering are very faint.  The green paint is very nice.  What are my options concerning the stripes and lettering?

I'll try to post pics shortly.

[runtime]

As I recall, remove the 4 corner screws on bottom, then the 2 large screws on the roof. Also the remove the screws connecting the articulating trucks. It's fairly intuitive. You end up with the the following pieces: two end plates (each different), two end trucks, the body, and the powered truck and the e-unit truck connected by wires. I think the it was also practical to seperate the headlight mounts from whatever they were attached to. Be very careful of the horn box, and refrain from trying to adjust it. There is also a weight on one of the end trucks which mine is missing.

runtime

[mdainsd]

I just purchased a 2332 GG1 that is all original. I have some questions:

1.  How to I take the locmotive apart to clean it?

2.  The stripes and lettering are very faint.  The green paint is very nice.  What are my options concerning the stripes and lettering?

I'll try to post pics shortly.

 

as for the stripes.

If the green paint is exceptional, send it to one of the quality guys for a stripe job.

Buy the decal set to replace the numbers and stripes.

 

thats the tricky thing about the 2332 finding one with good stripes, very difficult. Im looking at a NOS 2332 shell I have sitting on my desk at work, and the stripes are just not that vibrant on those engines

[bfskinner]

Jim, I would recommend a helper. Take care not to damage the stripes any further and be ultra-careful of that horn. I have taken mine apart and gotten it back together three times. Taking it apart is easy -- except that you wind up with five major and relatively heavy parts, all trying to get away from each other. Good luck.

                    http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2332.htm

 

   

     

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies.  While I was working on the motor, the wire the comes out of the field and attaces to the brush plate broke off right where it comes out of the form.  I unwound one turn so that I would have enough to reattach to the brush plate.  Will that harm the motor?

[bfskinner]

In my opinion, no. I've had that happen more than once. What I might suggest is taking a bit of varnish or even clear epoxy, and lightly coating the top row of windings to stabilize it so that the coil gets over the notion that it wants to unwind further. 

You might also want to wrap the shell in something to protect the stripes. The shell will get a lot of handling in the course of your project, and just when you think you've avoided the stripes on one side, you discover that you've damaged the ones opposite.

[Anonymous]

bf,

     Thanks again.  I got a good scare when I saw that the wire had broken off. I don't have any epoxy or varnish at the moment, but I do have some automotive clear coat in a touchup bottle with a brush. Would that work?

[bfskinner]

Sorry Jim,,

I have no experience with the product, and do not comment unless I have personal experience or a good authority/reference to back me up.

 

[runtime]

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the motor windings. As I'm sure you have learned, this is a strange design, and when disassembled, leaves you with at least two electrically connected but mechanically seperate parts. I did once have to solder a broken transformer winding, and that turned out ok. My 2332 was incorrectly wired when I got it (no headlights), and had a nasty habit of derailing on turnouts, but I think it is a unique piece in the Lionel product evolutionary chain. (mine is black, and has no stripes). Would love to get a later twin motor model, but they are so pricey.

runtime

 

[RockIsland52]

In my opinion, no. I've had that happen more than once. What I might suggest is taking a bit of varnish or even clear epoxy, and lightly coating the top row of windings to stabilize it so that the coil gets over the notion that it wants to unwind further. 

BF.....you must have worked on slot car motors in a former life (early 1960s).

Jim,

We used to place the thinnest even coat of epoxy as possible over the top layer of all of the windings, including the ends, after totally rewinding slot car motors.

We used a fine paint brush to apply the epoxy and worked it in thoroughly, both in between and over the windings.

Re using epoxy, there must be an easier acceptable clear adhesive to work with today since epoxy sets up too quickly for my taste.  So I will defer to others on the product selection.

The adhesive must be heat resistant.  Melting is a no-no under extended continuous operation, under the load of a pulling a lengthy consist, or climbing grades.

The thinnest coat will get the job done because these train motors do not run at high rpm, so throwing a winding on a train motor is highly unlikely after the job is done.  The thinnest even coat also mitigates the possibility of creating an out of balance armature due to unintended uneven application of the adhesive.

Missing one turn of wire as you suggest should have no discernable impact on performance.

We used to let the epoxy dry for 48 hours before running the motor because we didn't want to get anxious and ruin a painstaking motor rewind.

This approach recommended by BF worked perfectly on slot car motors where rpm could reach 80,000 rpm or higher.  The epoxy coated windings also had to withstand very high operating temperatures during 3+ hour enduro races.

Jack

[bfskinner]

Jack, methinks perhaps you and I are talking about different windings. I understood Jim Trumpie to be referring to the field windings, whereas it sounds as if you may be referring to the windings in the armature.

I say this because the field windings normally do not move at all relative to the rest of the motor; whereas the windings in the armature are spun at high speed.

On the field windings, what I will call the back end  is grounded, and the near end  attaches almost immediately to the center post (as I recall) of the brush-plate. This end of the winding can easily get stressed, flexed, and ultimately broken if folks attempt to change the brushes without first unsoldering the connection to the post on the brush-plate. Am I mistaken?

As for the stabilization-coating, what I have used is just garden-variety, clear, two-part epoxy of the "five-minute cure" type, from ACE hardware, Home Depot, Lowes, etc,, which has always given me plenty of working time, since I am not trying to penetrate the coil but rather merely to thinly coat the top layer where the near-end of the wire wants to unwind.

For best results, when ever one notices that the top-row windings are beginning to loosen, or the wire has actually broken, one should put a little tension on the end of the wire to hold things where they are, and then apply a little epoxy or varnish to the top layer covering all but one or two turns that must remain free for routing and resoldering to the contact on the brush-plate. 

As I recall, the wire was originally routed through a little hole in the plastic frame of the winding spindle, and wrapped around a nub of some kind to serve as a primitive form of strain-relief. When it becomes necessary to unwind a turn, due to the kind of break that Jim described, the top row tends to destabilize and therefore must be secured promptly before it turns the whole coil into a mare's nest.

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

bf,

     Thanks for your ongoing help, it is appreciated.  I'll buy some epoxy at work today.  I checked the resistance across the field last night, and it measured about 0.6 ohms.  I compared that with a known good 671M-4 field, and it also measured 0.6 ohms.  I had to order brushes and springs, so I might put the project on hold until the parts arrive.

[RockIsland52]

BF.....I thought the motor wire windings around/between the poles on an electric motor were called field windings and that they connect by solder joint to tabs on the commutator.  My mistake.

Jack

[lionel2]

jim...its tough work working on a 2332 GG1.  i used to have one that was in excellent shape and still had all of its stripes and numbers, etc.  I believe the motor in the 2332 is little bit different from a 671 turbine motor.  I think the slant is different, not sure though.  I did the same thing to my 2332, cleaning it up inside, new brushes and springs, etc.  But, never try doing a dual motor GG1, they are too tough.  I had a shop that did my 2340 congressional GG1.  they are nice locos, very strong and look nice, wish i still had all of mine.  thanks and good luck.

[bfskinner]

lionel2,

Funny, I have "done" a Lionel dual-motor 2330 GG1 and I thought it was much easier than the 2332. Slight difference of opinion here. Guess that's what makes horse racing. The problem I had with the 2332 concerned that screw above the resonator-horn.

I have fooled around with a 2332 three times, without ever having a helper. In the end I had to cut the head off another screw, insert this "guide" screw  into the bracket for the horn, push the bracket up through the hole in the cab, hold it in position, unscrew the "guide" screw, and insert the proper screw -- all without crushing the horn box. Never again.

Although I have adjusted the horn, I don't recommend it unless absolutely necessary; i.e., if it doesn't work at all. It sounds like a sick duck under the best of circumstances. That is part of its charm.

As far as the difference in the motors between the 2332 and the 671, it primarily concerns the length of the armature shaft. See the note at the bottom of the page in this link. It is very easy to get the shorter 671 armature when you are trying to purchase the one for a 2332.

          http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc2332f.pdf

 

[bfskinner]

RockIsland52

Jack, I don't think you were wrong. For "universal" motors I think the following terms apply. They just apply to different parts:

1. "Stator" field winding;

2. "Rotor" (or "armature") field winding.

In this case, from Jim Trumpie's description I deduced that he was talking about the stator field winding. Could just as easily have gone the other way. Where is a picture or a "lionelsoni" when you really, really, need them?

 

[RockIsland52]

BF.....We used to really get into torque versus rpm for slot car motors.  I don't recall the specifics, but the wire gauge used and variations in the number of windings per pole could vastly change a motor's performance for specific applications (high speed track versus road course).  These were mostly Mitsibishi "can" motors and came in three sizes, like the three bears.

Jack

[1688torpedo]

The Stator refered to above are the individual Steel Laminations that make up the Armature itself where the wire is wound on all three individual sections & all three are connected with each other via the Commutator which in turn is connected to the Stationary(Non-rotational coil) Field via the Brushes.Think of the Brushes as the points on the Ignition System on an older Automobile & this is how the Motor works. The Commutator is made up of three individual sheets of Copper inside a circular Bakelite Housing( White Plastic on 1970s-late 80s Motors). When running. The Current flow runs from the Pick-up Rollers to one side of the e-unit to the Drum & through the lower & upper Copper Fingers at 60hz. From there to the Field which is interfaced with the Armature via the Brushes also at 60hz. Hope this helps. Take Care.

[RockIsland52]

I wonder if any of us has ventured into rewinding a train motor versus swapping out armatures, what gauge wire is used from the factories, and how many turns per pole.

Jack

[lionelsoni]

From the IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical and Electronics Terms: 

stator(1)(rotating machinery).  The portion that includes and supports the stationary active parts.  The stator includes the stationary portions of the magnetic circuit and the associated winding and leads....

rotor(1)(rotating machinery).  The rotating member of a machine, with shaft.  Note:  In a direct-current machine with stationary field poles, universal, alternating-current series, and repulsion-type motors, it is commonly called the armature.

armature(1)(rotating machinery).  The member of an electric machine in which an alternating voltage is generated by virtue of relative motion with respect to a magnetic flux field.  In direct-current[,] universal, alternating-current series, and repulsion-type machines, the term is commonly applied to the entire rotor.

[Anonymous]

Here are the pictures I took before I took everything apart. The camera made the stripes appear to be stronger than they really are.

 

 

[lionel2]

Looks nice Jim...Mine had same paint color.  Yours have a red motor brushplate??  Just curious.  Cause mine did and i found it rare that the green ones do.  The black ones have it too.  Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Mine is black Bakelite.  I wasn't going to tear the locomotive down, but I am glad I did.  The grease was dry, and the brush springs are shot.  The seller apparently stretched them after they collasped just so it would hopefully run long enough the I wouldn't think that he did it.  It ran okay, but it just didn't seem quite right to me.  I just hope it runs after that field issue!