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Wiring my Postwar trains Questions!!

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Wiring my Postwar trains Questions!!
Posted by lionel2 on Friday, August 1, 2008 11:38 AM
I have (2) Z's, KW, and a ZW to power all my trains and accessories.  First, will plugging in all 4 transformers into a terminal strip then pluging the terminal strip into the wall outlet cause the fuse to blow in the fuse box??  Cause, that is alot of power into a terminal strip and into 1 socket in the wall.  Now, I have 3 main lines, 21 accessories, 6 pairs of switches, what is the best way to wire them all up between the 4 transformers??  I thought that i should run the 3 main lines off the A and B terminals on the Z's , Like line #1 and line #3 on the first Z and Line #2 on the Second Z transformer.  Then have the switches, all of them, powered by fixed voltage on the KW, and run my gateman off the A dial, and the switch tower off the B dial on the KW.  Then run about 2 or 3 accessories on each of the dials of the Z's and ZW.  Like, 2 or 3 on the C terminal, and 2 or 3 on the D terminal for each Z.  Then 2 each on A,B,C, and D terminals on the ZW.  And also i have light for my houses, i can run off 1 terminal on a Z.  I know it sounds confusing, but i think its the way to go.  I dont wanna overload my transformers.  I will be using terminal strips to seperate each block of asscessories.  tell me what you think and i will make corrections.  thanks.
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Posted by rtraincollector on Friday, August 1, 2008 12:03 PM
to my understanding Bob Nelson is about the best to answer that in here

Life's hard, even harder if your stupid  John Wayne

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Posted by kpolak on Friday, August 1, 2008 1:08 PM

Your house circuit shoud be fine if you only have the trains on it.

Each ZW is rated at 275w of power they need to operate.   Let's say you have (4) ZW's @ 275w to make the math easy.  The KW is 190w so it's a bit less.

275w x 4(ZW) = 1100watts.  Maximum electrical load to operate if everything is being used to the max.

A typical house circuit is 15amps.  A 15a house circuit should handle 1800watts.

[Volts x Amps = Watts]  120volts x 15a =1800watts.

I would worry more about the power strip being able to handle the 1100watts of power.

Kurt

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Posted by RRCharlie on Friday, August 1, 2008 2:25 PM

lionel2;

You should wire your tracks to A and D as those are the circuits with whistle and direction control. Use B and C for accessories.

Mel Hazen; Jax, FL Ride Amtrak. It's the only way to fly!!!

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Posted by lionel2 on Friday, August 1, 2008 2:53 PM
I like the power of the Z to run my trains, plus i have the whistle and direction control, the 167 controller, so i able to whistle and change directions with that using my Z to run my trains, I need the power that the Z puts out to run my trains.  My ZW is what i use mainly for accessories, and the Large dials on Z's i use for accessories as well, but the small dials i use to run lines 1, 2, and 3 on my layout.  Thanks for all the help,  So 1800 watts is the max 1 plug outlet can handle.  Got it!!  thanks.
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Posted by kpolak on Friday, August 1, 2008 3:03 PM

 lionel2 wrote:
So 1800 watts is the max 1 plug outlet can handle. 

No.  1800 watts is the capacity for one circuit.  You need to find all the things on the circuit you are planning to use for the transformers, and add them into the equasion.

Plug in a radio, for instance, so you can hear it from the fuse box, in various locations, and flip the breaker or unscrew the fuse to see what is connected to that circuit.  The radio will go off when it's plugged into that circuit, and breaker is turned off.

Lights, both plug in and/or direct wired, may be connected to the circuit you are planning to use.  So look at these too.  Lights can be calculated by the wattage of the bulb.

The total for the circuit is 1800 watts max.

Kurt

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, August 1, 2008 5:01 PM

The power ratings for the individual transformers are the power that each will draw when fully loaded.  It is highly unlikely that the group of 4 will draw anywhere near the sum of their ratings at any time and certainly not continuously.  Although your house circuits are protected at 15 or 20 amperes, depending on the wire size used, if the plug you are plugging into the outlet has parallel blades, as it almost certainly does, it is a 15-ampere plug and allowed to draw only 80 percent of that, or 12 amperes.  [NEC 2008, Table 210.21(B)(2)]  Still, you are unlikely to draw that much.

I would be more concerned about the secondary side.  The Zs and ZW have 15-ampere circuit breakers and therefore should be wired to their loads with no smaller than 14 AWG wire.  The KW is 10 amperes and can get by with 16 AWG.  Depending on the layout size, you might want to use heavier wire to reduce the voltage drop in the wiring; but these sizes are adequate for safety.

If your main lines are completely separate, your idea of running each one from a separate transformer output is okay.  However, your mention of turnouts hints to me that you may be expecting to run from main line to main line.  In that case, you risk a damaging and dangerous fault current when the train crosses the gap between main lines, particularly if the two main lines are powered from different outputs of the same transformer.  The transformers provide no protection against this (as the small print in the KW's service manual admits).  For running between transformer outputs, I recommend a block-wiring scheme.

In allocating loads to transformers, you should know that it doesn't make it any easier on the transformer to split up its loads among the outputs available.  The multiple outputs are useful for different or differently adjustable voltages for various loads, but won't make a difference if all the loads need the same fixed voltage.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionel2 on Friday, August 1, 2008 5:09 PM
okay..i got it...I might have to wire 2 transformers to one circuit and the other 2 transformers to another circuit.  I use solid bell wires for all my trains.  Its easy to work with and never breaks like stranded does.  i think it is 14 awg or 16 awg...it works well with my trains and i can find it in bulk really cheap.  plus they come in different colors too. makes it easy for me.  thanks.
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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, August 1, 2008 5:24 PM
"Bell wire" is unlikely to be any heavier than 18 AWG.  The diameter of a 14 AWG conductor is about 1/16 inch; the diameter of 18 AWG is about .04 inch and is safe for only about 8 amperes.  The wire should be sized according to how much current the transformer can deliver, not what the trains will normally draw.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionel2 on Saturday, August 2, 2008 8:42 PM
How would you overload a transformer??  now, i know i want to use the Z's to power the engines, and the KW to power the switches with fixed voltage.  So, basically only 3 terminals are used up for running the trains, 3 small dials on (2) Z's.  the whole ZW is used for accessories and all the large dials on (2) Z's are used for accessories.  And the last small dial on Z is used for lights for houses.  Does this sound right?  Is there another way i should do it?? thanks.
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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, August 3, 2008 8:08 AM

How would I overload a transformer?  I wouldn't and recommend that you don't.

However, you could connect a 1.6-ohm load between the A and U terminals of a Z transformer and turn it up to 24 volts.  The resistor would draw 15 amperes, which is the most that the circuit breaker would allow, and the power out of the transformer would be 360 watts, which would burn up the Z before too long.

You could also connect the A and B terminals together and set the knobs to different voltages.  Then you could draw much more than 15 amperes without ever tripping the circuit breaker, and destroy the transformer even faster.

I wonder why you prefer the small knobs for running the trains.  I have put big knobs on all the Z controls that I use for that.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionel2 on Sunday, August 3, 2008 10:09 AM
I mean...Dont all 4 dials put out 24 volts, the same power, plus its easier to run the volts i am putting out on the large dials, because some of my accessories require different amounts of volts.  It all varies and its easier for me to turn the large dials that i use for accessories.  I didnt mean i wanted to blow up my transformers, i just wanted to know what not to do, as far wiring it all up wrong.  sorry for the confusion.  thanks.
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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, August 3, 2008 11:34 AM

Of course, you should use whatever knobs you like for whatever loads; and there certainly is no difference between what's behind the small ones and the large ones.  It just surprised me that you would do it that way.  I use big knobs for the trains and small for accessories because I'm continually changing the train voltage and hardly ever adjust the accessory voltages.  By the way, you can easily move the knobs around to suit yourself.  I have three big ones on each of my Zs and one small.

As for blowing up transformers, I really didn't think you wanted to.  My advice is still to use heavy-enough wire to be safe.  You can get 14, 12, and 10 AWG building wire, solid or stranded, at any "home improvement" store pretty cheaply.

But it is true, as I said, that you can still damage a transformer in several ways, despite its having a functioning circuit breaker.  One modification I've made that makes things safer is to put smaller circuit breakers on the individual outputs of large transformers.  I use automotive circuit breakers, which are functionally identical to those originally installed in the transformers.

The most important warning though is not to connect the transformer outputs together by running between blocks powered by different transformer outputs.  I can't tell whether you were intending to to this; but my advice is not to.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionel2 on Sunday, August 3, 2008 1:32 PM
So, Never run 1 train with 2 transformers.  thats a big NO!!  And also goes the same with accessories too.  Got it, thanks.

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