BLUE WATER LINE

[BILLBOBBOY1]

I could use some help from any of you who are history buffs. 

In the 1960's, The Brothers Four recorded "The Blue Water Line" song, which is a sort of lament about a town's decision to tear down the local train depot, and, presumbably, the rail service as well.

The question is: Was the Blue Water Line a real railroad, or just a creation in the song?  I have searched via Google until I got bleary eyed from viewing multiple pages of mostly hits about the song (lyrics).  The only reference I found to a real train by that name was Amtrak's Blue Water Line operating out of Chicago.  But I seriously doubt the song was about Amtrak's line.  Lyrics in the song include mention of Jesse James and Abe Lincoln which leads me to think the line operated, if real of course, somewhere in the northern Mid West like Illinois or Missouri.

The reason for my question is if this was a real railroad, it would be neat to have an "S" or "O" gauge model for my layout. 

As always, any info will be greatly appreciated.

Bill

[bfskinner]

Couldn't find anything definitive, but the lack of info on the web combined with the lack of responses here could be suggestive. Did find this quote: "RAILWAYS. Blue Water Line. This appears to be a fictional railway company created for the Trainz Railway Simulator program." at      http://www.johncletheroe.org/trainz/glossary/index.htm.

There were a number of railroads that crossed Michigan about the times mentioned in the song. Some of them began in the Port Huron area and went southwest toward Niles as Amtrak does, and on around the lower tip of Lake Michigan to Chicago; others were loaded onto ferry boats and went across Lake M. directly. Perhaps the "blue water" derives from that. 

You might try getting in touch with this group; perhaps they know something:

     http://www.bluewaternrhs.com/

 

Good luck!

 

 

[chuck]

The song isn't related to a particular railroad/train.  The lyrics talk about Jesse James, the 49er's (not the football team) and William Jennings Bryant.

There is an Amtrack train called "Blue Water" that runs from Chicago to Port Huron through Lansing which then ties into the main Amtrack line at Battle Creek.  

[bfskinner]

Chuck,

Clearly the references to various people and events in the lyrics encompasses a good deal of the 19th century, with the date of the gold rush  being the oldest. Still, what is the origin of the term "blue water line?" 

The old Michigan Central RR had a train called the "Wolverine" for obvious reasons, and Amtrak still uses the name to this day; but why do they call their other "Michigan train," which I gather runs between Chicago and Port Huron, the Blue Water? Did the Amtrak train pre-date the song, or did the song come first, or was there something, real or fanciful, that pre-dated both? The Amtrak version is simply called the Blue Water. There is no "Blue Water Line" as far as Amtrak is concerned; but was there ever such a RR? Or is it not a railroad per se, but rather a route, rather like the New York Central's Water-Level route?

Or is it simply because Port Huron is immediately south of Lake Huron, and Chicago is on Lake Michigan, both of which are rather significant examples of "blue water?" Incidentally, the Port Huron and Detroit RR was known as the St. Clair Blue Water Route*, which might have inspired the term "Blue Water Line." Also, the bridge over the St. Clair river at Port Huron, immediately south of Lake Huron, is known as the "Blue Water Bridge." The term keeps cropping up in the Port Huron area.

Here's a link with a map of the route of the Amtrak Blue Water, showing a lot of blue water at each end of the line.

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Services

........................

By the way, the abandonment and susequent desecration of the once-beautiful Michigan Central Station in Detroit ranks with the pulling down of old Pennsylvania Station in New York City as two of the sorriest chapters in American railroad history, in my opinion.

* per http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/5276/18xx/history/usslogan.htm

Edit: speculative content, link to map added.

[chuck]

I think the reason they chose the words "blue water line" is that it was easy to rhyme with

The Amtrack service in Michigan includes the names of older pre-Amtrack trains.  I am familiar with the PereMarquette as it was the old C&O train that ran from Detroit to Chicago by way of the Grand Rapids.  I believe the Wolverine was one of the old Micigan Central/NY Central trains that originally ran from Chicago to New York by way of Detroit (it cut across southern Ontario) which was then was reduced to Detroit to Chicago service. The Port Huron line is the old Candaian National/GTW that cuts across the lower part of the thumb and turns south on the western side of the state.  I don't know what passenger trains (if any) were used on this route.  I believe that about five-ten years ago there was service from Chicago to Toronto using this route but it's been terminated (If you want to take a train from Chicago to Toronto you know have to take the Lake Shore limited to Bufallo and transfer to the Maple Leaf).

[bfskinner]

Chuck,

Agree with all you say. Thanks for the additional history.

I guess the ultimate question is whether the songwriter ever had any connection with Michigan, ever visited Michigan, ever heard of Michigan, or had a mom who was frightened by Michigan while pregnant with him? It's quite possible the song has nothing to do with Michigan, but so far no better ideas seem to be forthcoming

[BILLBOBBOY1]

To all:

Thanks for your responses.  I suspected it was a fictional railroad, but sometimes folklore and legend have some factual background; and I was curious.

I don't remember the exact year the song was recorded and released, but my memory (if it's any good) says it was around 1963-64.  It was one of my favorite Brothers Four songs.

If it had been a real railroad, what type of engine do you suppose it would have been?  Rogers? General?  Or maybe a Franklin?  In the song, the engine to be scrapped was number 9.

Regards,

Bill

[dsmith]

Perhaps the Port Huron & Detroit "St. Clair Blue Water Route" has something to do with this?

[bfskinner]

dsmith wrote,

"Perhaps the Port Huron & Detroit "St. Clair Blue Water Route" has something to do with this?"

I doubt it, although that old b-----d "bfskinner" speculated that it might. Nice pic, though.

The consensus seems to be that the "Blue Water Line" of the song is fiction; but the answer probably won't be known for sure unless and until someone gets hold of the songwriter. Yes?

[BILLBOBBOY1]

Thanks again for all your contributions.  I sent an e-mail to the link provided earlier.  Perhaps they will have some insights.  I'm still thinking it could be possible that there was a real railroad, but not called "Blue Water Line", that served as the inspiration for the song.

I've dug up a tad bit more info, but not enough to get a free cigar.  In a biography of the late 19th-early 20th century politician William Jennings Bryan a song of the same title was referenced.  The lyrics of the song were much briefer than the Brother's Four version, but the later version did include all of the lyrics of the earlier version.  So, the song was expanded.  However, not one reference as to who wrote the original version.   The original version made no reference to a plan to tear down the depot and scrap 'ol engine #9.  It appears the original may have been written to poke fun at Bryan's political career.

Since I have the cd album containing the song, I got the brilliant (Duh!) idea to look to see if the song writer was listed.  It listed a "D. Graf".  A google search provided a zillion hits for people with that in their names, but none I checked was about a song writer.

If I learn any new revelations, I'll post them.

Bill

 

[osdotf]

dsmith

Perhaps the Port Huron & Detroit "St. Clair Blue Water Route" has something to do with this?

While it was constructed long after 49er miners, Abe Lincoln and Jesse James, an ancestor of PH&D's "educated line" -- the Detroit, Bay City and Western -- operated two passenger trains daily between Bay CIty and Port Huron for about ten years until the line went out of business in the mid Twenties. Much of its construction costs and right-of-way had been donated by residents of the Michigan Thumb eager for transportation so it fits the spirit of the song if not its history. Tom Brown

[lionelsoni]

Amtrak has a "Blue Water" train, between Chicago and Port Huron, MI.  http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/Page/1241337978894/1237405732511  According to Wikipedia, the song by Dora Graf and Martin Seligson is a reference to that train.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Water_(train)

[osdotf]

lionelsoni

Amtrak has a "Blue Water" train, between Chicago and Port Huron, MI.  http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/Page/1241337978894/1237405732511  According to Wikipedia, the song by Dora Graf and Martin Seligson is a reference to that train.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Water_(train)

Bob I challenged that wikipedia entry's cultural reference yesterday since its only supporting citation is Seligson's lyrics that are no way germane (i.e. gold miners, Jesse James) to the state of MIchigan. Martin Seligson wrote "folk songs" for a number of acts in the 1950s and 1960s, including Jimmy Dean and the Kingston Trio, and I suspect "Blue Water Line" was his fictional attempt to recapture the success several years earlier of the Kingston Trio's "M.T.A."

Above, Bill mentions "Blue Water Line" in connection with a biography of William Jennings Bryan, but, if the biography is Michael Kazin's "A Godly Hero," I think you'll find that the Brothers Four song was actually mentioned in a review of Kazin's book where reviewer Eric Rauchway says he first became aware of Bryan when his mother played the record for him as a boy. In any event, neither Seligson, Kazin nor Rauchway were contemporaries of Bryan who died in 1925, and no evidence exists that Michigan ever had a train and/or railway with that name prior to 1974.

If anything, the song may instead have helped inspire the name of the train since the Blue Water Bridge was already Port Huron's most famous landmark.

Tom Brown

[cnw1995]

 Now I have that song playing in my head...

[mersenne6]

  Bill per your favorite quote

 

"Put in your two cents worth"; "A penny for your thoughts" - where did the other penny go?

 Answer:

 "Sound of a penny dropping"