I need help identifing a train

[hubbards98]

My mother-in-law found these trains in her basement, she remembers her mother having them as far back as 1958 around the Springhill area of Nova Scotia, Canada, but doesn't know anything else about them as far as the guage (although I think it is "O") or the maker and approx. how old they are.

 This is what I know: There is a working light on the front of the loco and apparently at one time smoke came out of the top of the Loco and it was made in Japan and the Loco is quite heavy, but I can't seem to find the maker of this model....does anyone have any suggestions?

 Thanks

Paul

[mpzpw3]

I'm not sure about the cars, but the engine appears to be a modified Lionel 675/2025. At least that's what the shell looks like.

[rtraincollector]

sorry I disagree If you look at the side rods and the cars to me there Marx from the git go . The whole set apears to be marx. now for value its hard to say I've seem them go high and low the main thing is they basicly seem to be in vg condition other than the engine it apears to be just good. Nice set .

[hubbards98]

Thanks,

A lot of that is just dirt, I would like to get them cleaned up and checked over, someone told me that they thought the loco needed new brushes so I think they would definetly be a keeper

[mpzpw3]

Upon closer inspection of the pictures, I'm almost 100% sure that is a Lionel 675/2025 shell. I don't know about the motor, though, except it doesn't belong with that shell.

[hubbards98]

OH, I forgot to add a pic of the power supply

[krapug1]

This looks like some modified and customized equipment.

The track and tansformer are Marx, no doubt there.

The freight cars LOOK like the Marx Scale Line, but they appear to have knuckle couplers, so they very well may be modified Marx, with some customized painting.

The engine, appears to be a PW Lionel 675/2025/2035, with a customized number, the tender barely seen in the distance is Marx.

It's hard to put a value on a set like this, as purists want things to be close to factory original.


Ken

[palallin]

Well, the cars are marked "Made in Japan,", and the transformer is marked "Vancouver, B.C."  I do not claim to know Marx, but neither of those--along with the absense of any Marx TM (which King Louis was NOT shy about using) makes me very skeptical.  Who are the Japanese timplate makers?

[3railguy]

Well, the cars are marked "Made in Japan,", and the transformer is marked "Vancouver, B.C."  I do not claim to know Mark, but neither of those--along with the absense of any Marx TM (which King Louis was NOT shy about using) makes me very skeptical.  Who are the japanese timplate makers?

Now things make sense. A lot of fly by night Japaneese firms made tinplate trains. They show up frequently in quite an array of variations. They mocked or reverse engineered Lionel, Marx, and American Flyer components which explains the confusion of a Lionel looking boiler on a Marx looking motor assy. They had trouble interpreting english which explains the "Hudson Pacific System" in NYC colors. They also construed American roadnames as American railroads would excercise their liscencing on name use. The Japaneese were still considered an ex WWII enemy.

 

[hubbards98]

That actually does make sense, She had told me that she has no interest in selling them, but It would be kind of neat to get them operational again to see how they run.

 

Thanks everyone for the help 

[phillyreading]

What confuses me on that set is the track is Marx, the frieght cars look like Marx but have Lionel style trucks & wheelsets.

If it is Marx it should have a circle with the letters MarX inside it or something close to that.

Has anybody checked to see that the trains are either: Ives or American Flyer from before WW2.  A.F. was into making O gauge before WW2.

Lee F.

[palallin]

They are most certainly not IVES, and no AF stuff was made in Japan.  I am uncertain as to why you say the track is Marx.  It doesn't look like any Marx track I've seen.  The stampings and the assembly method all differ from Marx.

[mpzpw3]

The more I look at the pictures, the more things seem not quite right. The trucks look like Marx, but when comparing them to actual known Marx trucks, they are not. Using the 675/2025 style engine shell, I can only guess this is a postwar set of some sort. Looking closely at the pictures, there doesn't seem to be a slot in the engine shell for an e-unit, which would mean it isn't a Lionel 675/2025/2035. It's a strange beast, to say the least, but the "not quite right" graphics on the cars, the strange engine boiler/motor combination, and the transformer, makes me think an expert on this type of thing would be needed at this point. I know I'm interested if finding out what it is!

[hubbards98]

I am going to a few train shows in the next few months and I will take the Loco with me along with one piece of the track and a bunch of pics of the rolling stock, I will keep everyone abreast of any juicy details I find out.

 

Thanks

Paul 

[palallin]

[dwiemer]

I would suggest getting ahold of Bob Nelson "lionelsoni" from this forum.  He lived in Japan and has posted some experience with early Japanese trains.  Look up any informational type threads and most times, you will see him give excellent advice.  Just find his post and PM him to ask advice on this thread.

Dennis

[3railguy]

What confuses me on that set is the track is Marx, the frieght cars look like Marx but have Lionel style trucks & wheelsets.

If it is Marx it should have a circle with the letters MarX inside it or something close to that.

Has anybody checked to see that the trains are either: Ives or American Flyer from before WW2.  A.F. was into making O gauge before WW2.

Lee F.

It's not Marx. It's Japaneese tin. He even posted it's marked "made in Japan". The Hudson Pacific System logo confirms it. Saki along with several Japaneese firms made track that looks almost identical to Marx. It could be Marx track added to the outfit but the trains are definately Japaneese tin. Nothing in Flyer's prewar O gauge line looks close to that. Flyer made realistic O gauge trains before the war but they were S gauge trains on O gauge trucks. 3/16" O gauge it was called. Much of it was carried into the postwar S gauge line.

Japaneese tinplate operations came and went like the wind.  Much like the tin toys we used to see in Airport gift shops, they came out with different stuff practically every year with no rhyme or reason to it. That is why nothing looks familiar.

BTW, they got Pacemaker right on the NYC boxcar but NYC would of raised holy hell if they Put New York Central on the logo. There was still a lot of hate toward Japan then.

[mersenne6]

 

  It's Sakai - Japanese firm - around before and after WWII. These sets show up from time to time on E-bay

[sir james I]

After WW2 Japan made cheap copies of many US products. I think that is what we see here. A 675 boiler copy, marx freight cars,marx track all copies. I can't remember the name but there was also a company that made copies of marx 027 switch's.

[lionelsoni]

I'm afraid I can't help here.  I did live in Japan as a 10-year-old and had a Japanese train set, but I'm no expert in who manufactured what.  The pink insulation on the center rail does look familiar, however, although my railheads and track pins were triangular.

[3railguy]

 

  It's Sakai - Japanese firm - around before and after WWII. These sets show up from time to time on E-bay

Hudson Pacific HO tender by Sakai.

http://cgi.ebay.com/H0-Hudson-Pacific-Tender-not-Marx-maybe-Sakai-VG_W0QQitemZ140220344122QQihZ004QQcategoryZ1558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[hubbards98]

Great help gents...thanks for the time, If you want me too I can take some more pics of the trains if you like, especially if there is an area you would like to see a little closer up.

[hubbards98]

I am going to take this Loco and rolling stock to a train shop to see if they can clean it up and fix any problems it may have...I am a bit excited to see if it can be fixed and to see it finally run after 30+ years.

 

I will let you know and then take some pics & maybe a movie to show you all