Trains.com

LAYOUT PROGRESS

8885 views
51 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Berea, OH
  • 362 posts
Posted by jmkk on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:54 PM

 I can answer one of your questions. As far as extending the non derail feature. Remove the insulated pin, place at the end of the next track section. The piece of track you extended the no derail with will have to be a insulated section (heavy paper the same as the center rail).Insulate the same outside rail as the nonderail insulator pin side. 

 Jason

Jason   

 B&O  =  Best & Only

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 8:16 PM

jason, thats exactly how I went about making the non derail feature extended. 

I wired this method up and the non derail features worked great.  Also, the signal lit up red when the train went over the insulated section.

BUT, the light turns off when the train leaves the  insulated section even though the switch is turned towards that direction.  I thought the light should stay red as long as the switch is turned in that direction (like the 022C controller lights)

Any suggestions?

John W
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:29 PM
You have wired the signal common to the accessory supply.  It should be wired to the layout common, that is, the outside rails generally.  The 022C controller operates by supplying current through one of the solenoid coils to lamps returned to layout common.  The coil which was not actuated to throw the turnout determines which lamp will light. 

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:58 PM

022s were always an inigma to me.  I never could understand how common and another common produce current, but I see why now.

As you said, I connected the common of the 022 to the common of the 153 and the non derail feature worked perfectly along with the 153 block signal.

The reason I tried having 2 separate hot wires is because I wanted the 153 to run at 14 volts while the 022s would run at 20 volts to ensure that they snap fully every time.  Ill have to settle for 16 volts on both.  All switches on the layout so far snap full at 15 volts so Ill just have to make sure I have great working switches for now on.

Thanks for your help guys!

John W
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Saturday, March 8, 2008 9:12 PM

Progress has been slow since my last update. Havent had as much time or supplies on hand to smoothly continue building the layout.  Heres a basic map of the track plan and power blocks in the area that I have completed.  There are a total of 9 blocks in this area:

Photobucket" border="0" />

I started by extending the benchwork around the wall a few feet and added/secured some more track around the turn.  After the turn and 153 block signal we shortened the shelf to 13 inches to make sure no one hits their head when they sit on the couch.  There is just enough room for 3 tracks side by side with good spacing.

Also put in corner pieces at each end of the long wall.

Photobucket" border="0" />

Then I wired the 022 switches and the 153 block signal so that when one of the 022s is in the turned position the signal turns red and vice versa.  Thanks for everyones help on this.  All tracks in this area are now secure and all feeders are sodered.

Photobucket" border="0" />

After all wires were soldered and dropped I began running bus wires for 14v accessories, 18v switches, and a few of the power blocks.  Things are looking a little less messy under the table.

Photobucket" border="0" />

Photobucket" border="0" />

I also came across the biggest problem so far with constructing this layout:  How to wire my 450 signal bridge.  Thanks to bob nelsons help I was able to have the lights switch back and forth without using a 153C contactor or relays.  I made a simple diagram for those who want to try the same method as well.

Photobucket" border="0" />

Use a green #53, red #53, and white #57 bulb.  Next I want to finish wiring and extend benchwork and track to the wall between the living room and the storage room.

 

John W
  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Clarendon Hills, Illinois
  • 1,058 posts
Posted by johnandjulie13 on Saturday, March 8, 2008 9:24 PM

Hello John:

Looks good!  Keep it up, you are making great progress.  I followed the postings between you and Bob Nelson regarding your signal.  Bob is the Goods when it comes to this stuff.  I am glad you got it working.  Thanks for the diagram.

Regards,

John

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, March 9, 2008 10:38 AM
 PostwarMan07 wrote:

After the turn and 153 block signal we shortened the shelf to 13 inches to make sure no one hits their head when they sit on the couch.



They would only do it two or three times, then they would learn the shelf is there and doesn't give! Wink [;)]

Lookin' good!

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, March 9, 2008 12:10 PM

Thanks for posting that diagram!  It's much better than my ASCII-art schematic.

Here are some more details that might help someone:  The white lamp (of course, it can be any color) should have the same voltage rating as the signal lamps, but should draw at least twice the current.  The number 57 is a perfect companion for number 53 signal lamps:  They're both rated for 14 volts; and the 57 draws 240 milliamperes, exactly twice the 53's 120.  But you could also simply use two of whatever the signal lamps are, so as not to have to figure out a suitable companion.  For this signal, two 53s in parallel would work just as well as the one 57.

You can just hide these extra lamps; but I try to find places on the layout for them, like track bumpers and billboards, where an apparently random on and off would be interesting.  I don't have a (195) floodlight accessory; but I imagine that would be a good example too. 

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Ann Arbor, Michigan
  • 2,306 posts
Posted by kpolak on Sunday, March 9, 2008 3:20 PM

I needed to draw this out for myself...and wasn't sure about the additional lamp going to the [U] ground rail or the insulated control rail.  I'm assuming it's to the [U] ground rail.

Correct?  This would still 'technically' be in parallel because they will share the same supply and ground, even though one goes to the isolated control rail.?

Sorry to be so much trouble, but I am really challenged when it comes to understanding electronics. 

Kurt

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, March 9, 2008 5:18 PM

No, it does go to the control rail.  It is in parallel with the red lamp.  Its purpose is to make the red lamp's resistance appear low compared to the green lamp's, so that, when there is no train on the control rail, most of the accessory voltage (A) is across the green lamp and the red lamp is effectively dark.

The reason why this trick works so well is that the resistance of an incandescent lamp varies greatly with the voltage across it.  If the extra lamp were not there, the red and green lamps would each get half the voltage and both of them would glow dimly, which would be unsatisfactory.  But, when the clear lamp is put in parallel with the red one, the voltage on that leg of the circuit drops and the voltage on the green leg increases.  This effect is then exaggerated by the resulting increased resistance of the green lamp and the further decreased resistance of the red and clear lamps.

To put some numbers to it, the voltage ratio would be 3 to 1 if the lamps all behaved like ordinary resistors, with constant resistance values.  But with incandescent lamps, the ratio is about 7.4 to 1.  This means that the red lamp gets less than 2 volts out of the 14 volts available, which is so little that it remains dark; and the green lamp gets the rest, somewhat more than 12 volts, which turns it completely on for all practical purposes.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Sunday, March 9, 2008 5:25 PM

kurt, the only thing that needs to be changed is that the white lamp needs to be connected to the control rail, not the layout common (U).  Dont worry, if you look at the thread about my signal bridge youll see it took me a whole day to figure it out WITH bobs help.... imagine if he didnt help me???!!!!???  Atleast I know the circuit breaker on my KW works.

bob, I put the lamps under the table in that 1" space between the origional shelf and the plywood.  I put a piece of scrap wood infront of the lamps to help cover the light.  When the room lights are off there is a faint light seen.  When I put the molding on the edge of the table there wont be any light seen.

I have another idea for hiding the 57 lamp.  If you have a single target signal, you can use that instead.  So you could have a siding signal go red along with the main line signal going red from green.

Thanks everyone!

John W
  • Member since
    March 2006
  • From: Ann Arbor, Michigan
  • 2,306 posts
Posted by kpolak on Sunday, March 9, 2008 6:20 PM

Got it.  Bob, I used your written instructions from Christmas, and spent about an hour working this out this am.  Working on wiring myself...so this thread is a great help!

Bob and PostwarMan07 thanks for the clarification!

Kurt

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, March 9, 2008 6:27 PM
The target signal seems like a good idea.  A trick I have used when I just want to hide the lamp is to cover the glass bulb with shrink tubing.  The heat of the lamp itself does the shrinking; and the tubing is of course able to withstand the head indefinitely.  When the tubing is hot, you can seal the top off by crimping it together firmly with pliers.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:55 PM

Its been a while since any progress was made on the layout (over 3 months).  Lack of time and $$$$ have caused me to keep putting off construction.  Rather than having an unfinished layout taking up space, Im going to be taking it apart for now.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help with the construction that I did complete.  Hopefully Ill find another place to get the trains running again asap...

John W
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 286 posts
Posted by DennisB-1 on Monday, June 16, 2008 7:41 AM

John,

I just found your thread and I would like to make a suggestion about your benchwork. To keep your plywood from sagging or bowing, you really should  have run  1 x 2s on edge along both sides of your plywood like a frame. Since you didn't do that, I would span the space between your supports with 1 x 2s along the front edge.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 16, 2008 7:45 AM
Darn I was enjoying watching your progress! Sad [:(]

Dennis - from page 1 about 25% down:

After all wiring and trackwork is done, we will add molding to hide the benchwork.

The molding would help prevent sagging as long as it were attached to the plywood AND the top edge were rabbitted to provide some support to the edge. The concern would then be for the back edge and the center.
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 286 posts
Posted by DennisB-1 on Monday, June 16, 2008 11:52 AM
Carefully looking at the construction, it appears that the 1 x 1s are attached to and sitting on top of an 8" wide shelf. I would have constructed a framework of 1 x 2s with cross pieces on 18" centers, attached it to the shelf and then added the plywood top. Perhaps the remainder of the layout could be constructed like that.
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Monday, June 16, 2008 6:48 PM

dennis, I agree with your idea.  At the time I thought what I did would be enough.  I didnt plan for warped wood and a slightly uneven shelf in one spot.  If we do rebuild, Im going to take your advice. Thanks!

PS: I was kinda bummed out about having to take apart the layout but was happy to find a package in the mail today.  Inside was a 1951 lionel advanced catalog from my grandparents.  Really amazed at the prices.  Seems like every single thing is 1/10th of todays prices for new lionel stuff. (ZW 29.95, 394 beacon 3.95, log and coal loaders 14.50....)

 

John W
  • Member since
    November 2007
  • From: Cape Ann Taxachusetts
  • 3,780 posts
Posted by RockIsland52 on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:16 AM

John....we are a patient bunch and take great pleasure in the issues and solutions of others.  Keep at it!  We won't let this thread die until you conquer the warpage and relocation of your layout.  Keep us posted.  And keep at it.

I have read that some have used styrofoam board to keep the weight of the layout down and increase the ease the relocation in the event of a move.  What they didn't post is how they maintained rigidity while protecting the fragile nature of the styrofoam. 

Jack

IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: New Jersey
  • 440 posts
Posted by PostwarMan07 on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:22 PM
Im hoping we can take it apart in sections.  Thats another thing that I didnt plan for.  I really like the track plan and theres a lot of wiring involved so I hope I can.  Ill definately keep you guys updated on any future plans.
John W
  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Clarendon Hills, Illinois
  • 1,058 posts
Posted by johnandjulie13 on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:44 AM
 PostwarMan07 wrote:

Its been a while since any progress was made on the layout (over 3 months).  Lack of time and $$$$ have caused me to keep putting off construction.  Rather than having an unfinished layout taking up space, Im going to be taking it apart for now.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help with the construction that I did complete.  Hopefully Ill find another place to get the trains running again asap...

Hello John:

I am sorry to hear that you are dismantling your layout.  I hope you are able to restart construction sooner rather than later.

Regards,

John

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Sunny So. Cal.
  • 3,784 posts
Posted by dbaker48 on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:55 AM

John,

I'm really impressed with what you have done.  I hope you find another location or area to resume your build.  I think you have definetly been "bitten" by the train bug.  I think I have had 4 or 5 layouts all the way from a simple point to point to something more elaborate.  I have had fun with all of them.  One of the advantages of a small layout is you gain experience and learn from each endeavor.  Most importantly do NOT give up.  I spent over a year and half designing my last layout, and still would do it differently.  In my opinion any available space is well worth the time and effort to build, even if you know it is temporary.  Even if it was a dedicated space in 1 room, you then could work on the detail and scenery for just that area. 

Good luck, and I too will be looking forward to your next effort. 

Don

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month