The big difference was that the 2343s had magnatraction and the 2333s did not.
Smaller differences include nickle plated ladders on some 2333s and GM decals in different areas on the 2333s.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Jack, I did manage to get some sleep and bite to eat. Your right. I havent had this much fun with my trains sine I got my first set in 1995 for my birthday. Ive wanted these things for about 10 years but never could find a pair I liked when I had extra money OR never could find extra cash when I found a pair.
Jim prob knows more on the subject but in general the quality of the engines declined over time when it comes to details. The only difference I know is that the 2333s didnt have magne traction. Thats why I only wanted 2343s and 2353s. They were the median between power and detail (the 2343s being more detailed).
The single best way to kill the value of any NYC f3 or even the Southern for that matter is to take wax or polish to them IMHO. Those two roadnames came with a frosty finish, ruined by any application of the two mentioned products. You can see a polished nyc from across a train meet.
Ive collected postwar F3s for many years and nothing kills the value faster, again only my opinion.
mdainsd wrote: Ive collected postwar F3s for many years
Ive collected postwar F3s for many years
Which of the PW SF F3 Warbonnets do you like best? 2243, 2333, 2343, 2353, or 2383. I've recently been reading and looking, trying to get up to speed on the differences: # of motors, motor mounting, magnetraction, vents, ladders, hand rails, GM decals, location of the horn, etc.
Thanks,
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
There have been several occasions where I've paid more than the going "ebay" rate for a postwar item in a shop or at a show.
Despite the fact that I could have bought the item for less elsewhere, for me it was a big selling point to be able to see the item in person, and, at the shop at least, being able to run it.
In fact, I have yet to make a major postwar purchase anywhere other than a shop or a show. Most of my Ebay purchases are impulse buys on relatively inexpensive items, like the boxed 3520 with the rare black lamp bracket that I saw listed with a buy-it-now of $20 and couldn't pass up.
Many of the items for which I "overpaid" have become among my favorite postwar trains. When I run them, all I think about is how great of an item they are, and not how much I paid for them.
In my opinion, if you're able to run your 2353s without thinking about what you paid for them, you have nothing to worry about.
RockIsland52 wrote: mdainsd wrote: Ive collected postwar F3s for many years Which of the PW SF F3 Warbonnets do you like best? 2243, 2333, 2343, 2353, or 2383. I've recently been reading and looking, trying to get up to speed on the differences: # of motors, motor mounting, magnetraction, vents, ladders, hand rails, GM decals, location of the horn, etc.Thanks,Jack
I only have the 2343s, and I love them. I got them locally for a song! As I said, I love them. I even like the bicycle horn! The 2383s don't appeal to me because of the black trucks and the filled in port holes. I think they detract from the looks of the locomotive.
From an operational standpoint the 2383 verticle motor units are the best running period. However, as others have mentioned the sealed off portholes. black trucks and reduced detail just dont make the units look as they did in their earlier incarnations.
My favorite is the very early 2333 with rubber stamped lettering (and the NYC version). the 2343s will pull better with Magnatraction, but the first f3s (the RS 2333s) are the hardest F3s to find in collectable condition, bar none.
Bang for the buck? 2343s. You can get a nice looking pair for operation for 200 dollars or so. You cant go wrong with them.
"From an operational standpoint the 2383 verticle motor units are the best running period"
I heard that the vertical motors were smoother but the horizontal motors were a little more powerful...is this true or just a dirty rumor spread by fans of early f3s?
Except for the mounting and transmission, they look like the same motor to me. The gearing could be different; but I think the locomotives' tractive efforts are limited by wheel slip in any case.
One important difference between vertical and horizontal types is that the truck center bearings are closer together for the vertical versions, making them able to clear the switch-motor boxes of Lionel O27 turnouts.
Bob Nelson
PostwarMan07 wrote:"From an operational standpoint the 2383 verticle motor units are the best running period"I heard that the vertical motors were smoother but the horizontal motors were a little more powerful...is this true or just a dirty rumor spread by fans of early f3s?
Well I only know one way to find out
I'll put a 2383 up against a 2343 this weekend. My guess is that the 43 will pull the 83 around backwards: being a little heavier, geared lower.
I let you know.
OK, I decided I'd do it now. quick and informal, straight, level tubular lionel track. I warmed up the engines a circuit or two then locked each one in forwar. coupled back to back, turn up the zw.
2343 pulls 2333 backwards: no suprise.
2383 pulls 2343 backwards: interesting
just for fun
2341 (FM) pulls 2343 backwards.
2341 (FM) dead even with 2383.
I repeated with the same engine but different road and the results stayed the same.
In my collection looks like verticle motors are the king.
Darn, now gotta try em with GG1s.
mdainsd,
Thanks for conducting this test. It will provoke some thought out here. Hopefully some lively discussion and testing by others.
Don't some engines pull stronger in one direction (either forward or reverse)? What I mean, for example, is can that the same 2343 can pull stronger at the same voltage in forward than it can in reverse, or visa versa. I know that can be true for speed at a fixed voltage, and is most noticeable under heavier consist loads.
This thread is going to drive some guys nuts. Did you clean the roller pickups of both locos? The wheels? Next we'll have you cleaning and lubricating both competing engines, changing brushes, etc. Others will be telling you there is something genetically wrong with your 2343. And still others will have you pulling out a level to see if there is a .5% advantage to the 2383. And turn off that forced air heat......it's giving the 2383 a .5 mph tailwind. From previous experience, the performance difference between an engine with a clean cummutator and a dirty one in the same engine can be huge.
Interesting stuff. I've got some 2023 and 2031 Alcos, and the 2031's have always been measureably better at a fixed voltage than the 2023's, even though they are essentially the same.
BTW, is there a weight differential between the 2243's and the 2283's?
RockIsland52 wrote:BTW, is there a weight differential between the 2243's and the 2283's?
I would think there would be. The 2243 only has one motor. The 2383 has 2 motors.
Although I like your effort in testing the engines...I must be critical of your methods. Your results would be much more accurate if you went and purchased 2 more of each engine (2343 and 2383) so there is less variance. Im sure your wife would hae no issue with that...right? I mean its for the benefit of science.
But seriously, I am surpised with the results. I have these 2353's pulling 36 cars at 10 volts with no slipage and CANT believe that there is a stronger postwar engine out there. Lionel sure built these things well. If not for the black trucks and no portholes, I might had been tempted to grab another pair of santa fes fo my collection (2383s)
Sorry! Typo. I meant is there a weight differential between the 2343s and 2383s?
Jumijo wrote: RockIsland52 wrote: BTW, is there a weight differential between the 2243's and the 2283's? I would think there would be. The 2243 only has one motor. The 2383 has 2 motors. Jim
RockIsland52 wrote: BTW, is there a weight differential between the 2243's and the 2283's?
Oh, sorry Jack. My mistake. But it will be interesting to see if there is any difference in weights between the 2343 and the 2383.
I know whenever I buy a post war train, my wallet is a lot lighter!
Jumijo wrote: Oh, sorry Jack. My mistake. But it will be interesting to see if there is any difference in weights between the 2343 and the 2383.I know whenever I buy a post war train, my wallet is a lot lighter! Jim
Jim,
You could jump in here and tell us we're all wrong, that the Williams 2243 pulls better than the Lionel. Then we could really get things going!
My Williams 2343s are extremely good pullers. And dead quiet. I don't have the heart to compare a post war set to them.
PostwarMan07 wrote:mdainsd,Although I like your effort in testing the engines...I must be critical of your methods. Your results would be much more accurate if you went and purchased 2 more of each engine (2343 and 2383) so there is less variance. Im sure your wife would hae no issue with that...right? I mean its for the benefit of science.But seriously, I am surpised with the results. I have these 2353's pulling 36 cars at 10 volts with no slipage and CANT believe that there is a stronger postwar engine out there. Lionel sure built these things well. If not for the black trucks and no portholes, I might had been tempted to grab another pair of santa fes fo my collection (2383s)
I didnt just test one example of each, I tested all my "runner" PW F3s. with the exception of a couple of engines that were feeling under the weather, the results came out the same. I ended up testing about 30 F3 pairs.
PostwarMan07 wrote:wow, thats some collection! Do you own all different road names or just a lot of multiples?
Right now Im missing the 2379 rio grande, otherwise all the roads, all the road numbers and working on the variations. And some multiples for sure. FM's, working on the variations.
mdainsd wrote: PostwarMan07 wrote:wow, thats some collection! Do you own all different road names or just a lot of multiples? Right now Im missing the 2379 rio grande, otherwise all the roads, all the road numbers and working on the variations. And some multiples for sure. FM's, working on the variations.
That is one solid collection you have! Got any extra 2344s?!
If you dont want your 2373 canadian pacific f3s Ill take them off your hands as well. If I could get all the santa fes, 2344s, 2373s, and the western pacifics Id be happy with my collection of f3s.
Jumijo wrote: mdainsd wrote: PostwarMan07 wrote:wow, thats some collection! Do you own all different road names or just a lot of multiples? Right now Im missing the 2379 rio grande, otherwise all the roads, all the road numbers and working on the variations. And some multiples for sure. FM's, working on the variations. That is one solid collection you have! Got any extra 2344s?!Jim
I'm having trouble with my posts; but I found a pair of NYC 2344 AAs on ebay you might be interested in. No B unit. 22 hours left on auction. New, mint, unrun, C10, OB. $83.50. Sorry, that's $835. Couldn't help myself.
PS: Buy it now price a mere $4000. Got an extra kidney laying around?
I think I'll pass on this set of 2344s, Jack. But dig this - yesterday I was all set to bid on a super nice set being offered by New England Toy Train Exchange in a live auction. I thought the auction was set for 7pm PST. It went off at 7am PST, and these sweeties sold for all of $340! Insert Homer saying "DOH!!!!" here...
Easy come, easy go. There will be others.
Jim, Re the New England Toy Train Exchange live auction site, is there a search function I missed, or do you have to wade through the stuff lot by lot? That's a lot of wading!
Jack, the auction was on Ebay. But it was also a live auction so Ebayers could bid along with live bidders. I thought for sure they would go cheap because of the 17.5% buyer's premium attached to the winning bid. I was correct. But got the time wrong and didn't even get to bid!
You can find the completed auction, with photos Here:
2344s Auction
Bummer, Jim, as these looked every bit as clean as the C7 rating and would be worthy additions to your collection. Back to the deer blind to wait on another.
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