lionel TMCC problem

[Anonymous]

recently purchased TMCC setup with 50th anniversary union pacific set and the hrn, bell reverse direction, brake, smoke buttons intermittantly respond the lights on the unit come on when I press the associated button but over 50% of the time the i get no sounds, reverse of driection etc... i also have a sound dining car in the set which seems to operate flawlessly...do i need to reprogram the engine, any instructions on how to do this?

[Anonymous]

Try this. It can help with some problems. Also make sure your command base is piuged into a grounded recptacle.Hope this help's

[Anonymous]

Look in the instruction manual and REPROGRAM your engine following the instructions. If that does not work, SEND IT BACK! Lionel is infamous for not doing quality control on items they believe will never be opened and run. It's less expensive for them to just fix the returns from special sets then it is to run checks on all of the stuff. I have a 50th anniversary hudson set with a J3A engine. DOA. Sent it back 3 times before it was fixed. Ask Brenda at Lionel. She'll tell ya!

[Anonymous]

I've read a lot of posts on the OGR TMCC forum. It seems that something like 90%+ of the time, problems with TMCC are due to the following causes:

1. Plugging the Command Base power supply into:
a. a surge suppressor that does not have a good EARTH GROUND or
b. a wall outlet that does not have a good EARTH GROUND.

Solution: Make sure the Command Base power supply is plugged directly into a wall outlet with a good EARTH GROUND, OR is plugged into a power strip (not a surge suppressor), which is then plugged into a wall outlet with a good EARTH GROUND.

2. Tracks passing over other tracks, causing ground plane interference or

Solution: Run a length of wire under the upper set of tracks & connect one end of that wire to a good EARTH GROUND. The other end should not be connected to anything. The wire acts as a ground plane for the upper track & improves the signal to the locomotive.

3. Tracks passing under metal bridges that are not connected to EARTH GROUND.

Solution: Connect one end of a wire to the metal bridge and the other end to an EARTH GROUND.

For an EARTH GROUND, you can use the screw holding the wall plate onto an outlet, or a cold water pipe, if one is near by.

There are excellent posts by FMaguire on the OGR TMCC forum that describe the theory behind how the signal gets from the rails into your loco. In short, the slab in your basement serves as a one side of a capacitor, and the rails serve as the other. If you don't have the Command Base power supply plugged into a good earth ground, then you don't have the slab acting as the other end of a capacitor, so no signal gets to the locomotive.

Hope this helps

Tony

[bnfoat]

Regarding TMCC and running three trains on a small layout. I am setting up a small Lionel layout, 2 4x8s. I will have the capability to be running three trains in the conventional mode with multiple blocks. Things can happen pretty fast on a small layout with three trains running. I can quickly start and stop trains with the block control switches and switch the turnouts using the switch controllers. My question is if I convert to using TMCC will I be able to start and stop trains quickly to keep them from crashing? I've never used TMCC, but it seems to me that it would not lend itself to this type of operation? Does anybody have experience running three trains on a small layout with TMCC that can respond to this question? Thanks, Bruce

[Chris F]

Bruce,

There's a small red triangular button on the CAB-1 controller, below and to the left of the throttle know. This HALT button cuts off all power to the track. I have to admit I've used this button more than a few times! After activating HALT, you will have to re-address all your tracks and locomotives.

[Big_Boy_4005]

TMCC won't solve your problems, except maybe for the halt function that Chris mentioned. In fact if done poperly, it could make things even more difficult.

It may allow you to do away with electrical blocks, but you may end up having even more crashes. You would definately want one remote per engine, and a set of eyes and hands for each remote. Anything less, and you haven't really solved anything.

[Roger Bielen]

Bruce,
Two trains are easier to set up. One can be addressed as an ENG and the other as a TR. With this you can toggle between the two just by hitting the ENG or TR buttons without entering a number. Anything more you'll need to add a number to the address when togglfing.

[Anonymous]

TMCC is great, but occasionally the Reverse Unit has to be Re-Programmed. There is a code number for each engine. If that code is not in your manual, then Lionel will send it to you. For instance, the older GP-9 manual doesn’t mention Re-Programming, and Lionel told me to use Code “5”.

All and all, Lionel is a great product with one of the best customer service departments known. It’s no wonder that they survived for 104 years.

Richard

[Anonymous]

I hate to be the contrary one here, but I am going to argue that your layout will be easier to run with TMCC. I am assuming of course that you are referring to full command control, and not simply remote control of conventional engines.

Assuming you go to full command control, you will be providing a constant 15-17 volts on all of your tracks, so having to control blocks goes away. Granted, controlling engines and switchs with a single CAB-1 can be a little tedious, so you can control your switches with the manual levers.

I would further suggest you add DCS to your layout to beable to run locos from MTH in full command mode and control all your TMCC locos (except lashups) with the DCS remote. The possibilities are endless.

I run a minimum of three trains on my layout all the time and it is only 6 x 16 and has only two loops of track. That's right, three trains on two loops and sometimes I even run four. As mentioned above you only need to press the red HALT button if things get too hairy.

You can also add the accessory control of the SC-2 for TMCC or the AIU for DCS to allow you to program routes and scenes on your layout, thus automating many functions and assisting you in layout management.

Jim

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Meowguy, you are suggesting that that he spend a lot of money on equipment, for a small layout that may not have enough linear feet of track to comfortably run 3 trains at all.

He said that the layout was on 2 4x8's, but if he only has a single mainline,

no amount of fancy TRAIN control will help the "JUGGLING ACT" that he will have to perform to keep the trains from crashing into each other!!!

What he needs is TRAFFIC CONTROL which has nothing to do with TMCC or DCS at all, which is why I think he would be wasting time and money with any type of command system for his situation.

[Anonymous]

Dear everyone,
So if I don't use TMCC, what do I do to run multiple trains at one time. I would like to know because I am planning my new layout which will have plenty of room for at least two trains. The cost savings of not using TMCC is also apealing. However, will I be able to have the control of train movements without it. I am not excessively worried about the loss of more sounds, and I don't have any TMCC locomotives yet, so I really could go either way. Any help you could give me would be most appreciated.

Sincerely,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

The traditional method of controlling multiple trains on one layout is through block control. The layout is divided into multiple blocks and block slector switches select which throttle controls a given block (usually one throttle per transformer but the ZW & other high end transformers have 2 throttles). For 2 throttles, SPDT or DPDT toggle switches can be used. For more than 2 throttles, rotary switches must be used (one position per throttle). It is not too bad for simple layouts running 2 trains but quickly becomes very complex to wire and run as the number of independent trains is increased. An operator must insure that the next block is unoccupied and switch it to the correct throttle before the train enters the block.

Daniel Lang

[Big_Boy_4005]

What follows is specifically about the concept of running multiple trains on a single loop of track. If you only want to run one train per loop then it is simple. Multi train operation is a different story.

I have always looked at it this way. There are two seperate issues. I call them:

SMART TRAINS & SMART TRACK

SMART TRAINS are TMCC or DCS. You can control many functions of each engine with these systems.

• whistles and bells
• couplers
• smoke
• lights
• sounds
• and a huge variety of throttle functions

There are other functions that can be controlled with these systems as well. Throwing switches, turning accesssories on and off, etc. You can even group commands togerher. The point is that you as the operator do all of the controlling, decision making, and button pushing.

The problems come with the concept of SMART TRACK. Neither command system is capable of making decisions without the additon of elements that are NOT currently marketed as user ready. LOGIC must be introduced to keep trains form crashing.

There are two basic methods of introducing logic into the system, relays or computer. First there must be a way of telling if a block of track has a train in it, this is called detection. Some methods use the track itself, others do not.

Part of the beauty of 3 rail trains is that it is very easy to use the track to detect the train!!! The secret is in insulating the two outside rails from one another. The wheels of the trains bridge the rails and can be used as an on-off switch. With Gargraves and Atlas track this is simple because both use non conductive ties. If you use any of the other types of track, you have to work to insulate the outside rails.

This information must be gathered and processed, and that's the tricky part. Relay logic has been around for a very long time. Parts of real railroads still use it today, to operate their signals. Old Lionel operating manuals show how to wire for a relay controlled block system. I have been doing things like this for years, and it is COOL!!

Now the age of computers is here, and Lionel was looking forward from the beginning, by putting a serial port on the command base. They also now make devices that can be connected into the TMCC system to do the detection. The trick is still to process all of the information. Companies are working on ways to do this, but I am not aware of any products on the market yet.

---

I plan to write the software that I need for my railroad, which I am currently building using Gargraves track. I have a seperate detection system that will be connected to a serial port on my computer, and when combined with TMCC, will give me both elements needed for fully automated operation. I will operate one train and the computer can operate as many as I tell it to, but I won't have to juggle, simply obey the signals, just like a real railroad. By the way, my railroad will have no loops.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Today my club had a large 3-Rail layout setup at the Great American Train Show in San Francisco, and I had two trains on the same loop controlled with TMCC. Guess what? I was fooling around with the Tower Announcements in front of a group of kids, and one train crashed into the rear of the other train knocking 5 coaches off the track.

Truthfully, it’s not relaxing to run multiple train with the Cab-1, and I had to constantly hit Boost on the lead train when it slowed down for curves. The new Odyssey System with constant speed control would probably make following a train easier? One of the factors that caused the accident is that we were within a half hour of closing time, and my boy was removing tanks cars from the rear train. That made the rear train gain speed each time a tank car was removed.

I will try multiple trains again tomorrow. Maybe there is a way to lash-up trains the way we lash-up engines? There is a lot to learn with this new computerized train control.

Richard

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sorry to hear that Richard, but thank you for sharing that story. That's the kind of thing that can happen when "train juggling", with command or with blocks. In order to really enjoy operating trains, it is important to remove the element of danger.

I'm not trying to tell people how they should run their trains, I'm just trying to share what I have learned from experience over the years. The way I see it, there are a few options that that allow you to run multiple trains without playing "Addams Family".

1. Have multiple independent loops, one train each
2. Have one operator per train when running more than one train per loop
3. Have a system that will automaticly prevent the trains from crashing
4. Buy inexpensive trains and play "Addams Family"
5. Ignore all of this and take your chances

Those are the options, the choice is your's.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Richard, that idea might work. Program the two engines as a lash up, but run them as two seperate trains. That is really no different than taking two conventional engines and putting them on the same throttle. The trick is still to balance them by loading them so that they run at the same speed, and you are still going to have to watch them.

[Anonymous]

Hi Big_Boy,

Thanks for the ideas. I didn’t know that two Cab-1 controls could be used on the same loop? Anyway, following a train seemed to work better when I addressed one as a “Train” and the other as an “Engine.” That way all I had to do is punch one key at the top of the Cab-1 to address either train. Those two function keys remember the last address, so there is no need to punch in the numbers again. By using only “Boost” or “Brake” to vary the speed of either train, and the one key Cab-1 address I survived the second day without an accident. The day before I was punching in “Eng 62” and “Eng 83“, which of course was a lot slower and confusing. Plus, playing around with the Cab-1 features while my boy was removing tank cars from the second train.

Richard

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Richard, I sure hope you can use more than one Cab-1, because that's what I'm basing my entire operation on. [;)]One remote per person and one train per person = one remote per train. Also in my case, a computer will be operating some of the trains.

Now you have taught me something, the shortcut method of toggleing between two trains with one remote. I always thought that it had to be done the long way. But I don't think Bruce is going to get away with 3 that easily.

Glad to hear that things went better the second day.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy,

My 3-rail club uses the Lionel TMCC Track Power Controller (TPC) 400 on three separate loops that are numbered 1, 2, and 3. I’m still in the process of learning how to operated the TPC. The first thing we do if we want to start operation in TMCC mode is to punch in Train 3 for loop 3, and then turn the red button on the Cab-1 to bring up the voltage. I’m not sure if the Cab-1/TPC 400 system will allow a second train to be addressed with the Cab-1? I had it working for a while, but there was cross modulation between loops 1 and 2, and we all gave up on TMCC for a while. There is a trusty ZW on each loop for manual operation, so the show went on.

Richard

[Roger Bielen]

More than one CAB-1 can be used per layout. They all come from the factory at the same frequency. The chance of two commands being issued at the same exact moment are remote if not impossible. No additional equipment other than the CAB-1's is needed.

I have 2 loops, yard, and branch lines that I operate. When a guest, or my granddaughter, want to run a train I give them a CAB-1 while I use the other as a safety override until they are comfortable controlling the train.

Problems occure at shows with multiple TMCC layouts. You'll need to get to gether and agree on discrete engine numbers for each layout.

[Anonymous]

I just bought a TMCC system and it must have been standing on the shelf a long time because it promises that Lionel will release software to enable computer (pc) control of the system "sometime in 1996"!! Well, THAT train has left the station.

Whatever became of this idea[?]

CZ

[nblum]

Here are some who advertise TMCC computer software:

http://www.trainpriority.com/

http://www.tastudios.com/tastudiosupgrades/tmcclinkpage

http://www.cti-electronics.com/faqs.htm

There are others as well, I believe and have been for some time. I suspect some of the TMCC development money since 2000 or so has gone to legal fees instead of product innovation. ;)