If you REALLY want a good sampling of helpful replies, ask the people on the OGR board.
OGR Forum
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
You have just asked the question that has no answer--- ask 1000 people, you'll get 1000 different answers. Seriously, though, ALL the manufacturers have some very good quality and some very lousy quality items. I personally have mostly MTH engines,with 1 lionel, 1 williams, 2 k-line. I have had no quality issues with any of them, I think that quality is what YOU percive it to be.
As to pricing, O gauge is probably the most expensive scale to be involved in. I do try to read the reviews of items that i'd like to buy, and I track Ebay auctions to get an idea of what is a fair price for when I want to try for the item. That said, I do think that Williams items were/are good, basic, non fragile, and an all around good buy. K-line had some very good engines at very good prices, and were well made. MTH & Lionel have been at each other's throats for the last few years, each trying to outdo the other. This has resulted in some very acrimonius spear chucking by the O gauge fanatics that support one particular company over the other, and I think both sides are pretty weary of the whole mess by now.
HTH
A Day Without Trains is a Day Wasted
Jumijo wrote: If you REALLY want a good sampling of helpful replies, ask the people on the OGR board. OGR Forum
We can handle the questions right here on this forum without ever mentioning the other forums.
Don't forget about Atlas & you can get their's with TMCC & Railsounds also. Lots of detail & quality. Good service also.
Thanks, John
csxt30 wrote: Jumijo wrote: If you REALLY want a good sampling of helpful replies, ask the people on the OGR board. OGR Forum We can handle the questions right here on this forum without ever mentioning the other forums
We can handle the questions right here on this forum without ever mentioning the other forums
True enough, Johnny. But watching the koolaid girls on OGR flame each other's answers...priceless.
The Thousand different answers response is correct.
If you pick a couple locos that your interested in from each manufacturer and ask about them specifically, you would get the info you seek. Also, how's your availability of layout space and budget.
Bobby
also do you want command control or do you wish conventional controll as if your command that leaves williams out unless you want to spend the bucks for aftermarket command control and either put it in yourself or pay to put it in.
With that said I'm conventional controll and I have both lionel and williams that I wouldn't sell for anthing. in williams Virginian Trainmaster its so quiet when it runs on the track its unreal and I don't use anything to make it quieter as I just do a carpet run or now getting my shelf layout going and its even quiet up there.
I have 3 williams total love them all
K-Line I have 2 and like them also
MTH I have my first coming in so will let you know after I get it.
Lionel have about 15 some are cheapies and there okay but ready to sell as there what they are but then I have about 12 out of the 15 I think are great.
Don't have any weavers or atlas but have seen and have fallen in love with some atlas but out of my price range right now as there tmcc and that just a little to much for me right now. (yes I could sell a few of mine and afford to but a couple tmcc engines but then I would need the equipment to run them in tmcc as wouldn't be happy if I spent the money on them and couldn't use them to the max of there abilities.
Bottom line is what are you after and what type money are you looking to spend to get going in this hobby as its not cheap no mater what gauge you go you can find cheap sets and expensive sets but what will you be happy with that will keep you interested in the hobby.
i have sets in lionel that are worth about $75.00 to $100.00 and then I have sets that are worth 3 to 4 times that and have engines alone worth 4 times that so take your pick.
And you can get ho or n scale engines also that a few hundred .
So first just tell us where you want to start at and would like to end at and you'll get the answers here as no one has all the answers but at least most of us have answers to get almost anything in the hobby answered or have contacts that can give us the answers to give to you.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
It all starts with your layout. Asking opinions on engines in both steam and diesel and going back as far as postwar Lionel is just to broad of an area. You have choices of command systems as well as running conventionally. Often times your layout will dictate what you can opperate. You may have a maximum radius curve on your layout that a large steamer can't navigate. Price point also figures in. Sound or electronic functions may be a deciding factor. What someone may recommend. May not work on your RR.
I run all the above mentioned. I model 2 specific roads and they all have contributed to the roster. But in order to run on my layout it must be command equipped. Be either NH or B&A and be protypical for 1944. I also have to have a protypical train to pull behind it. By setting some guidelines. My purchases are pretty much decided for me. But this is a broad hobby and everyones ideas are different based on their interests. I run both TMCC and DCS. I suggest decide what type of layout you envision building or already have and how you plan on opperating when it's complete. That should be the deciding factor in what locos to purchase. I really don't believe theres that big of a difference today from one manufacturer to another. They all run and look good. If simplicity is important rather than new electronics. Postwar runs great and you can add Williams to the list. As far as the newer command engines. It starts with the control system. They both work very well and each has its pluses and minuses.
Some good answers here. To add my two cents, if you are looking at non command running, hard to beat Williams for quality/price. They are today's postwar machines in that they just keep going and going. I have mostly Postwar Lionel, but also have engines from K-Line, MTH, Weaver, and Williams. I have had very few issues with all but the MTH in that the battery issue for the Protosounds system is a PITA, but they are well detailed and besides that one issue, seem to run well. My suggestion would be to think of a specific engine, then come and ask about who has what and what they recommend. For example: say you want a NYC Hudson, you like scale features and want command, well, that really narrows things and folks can help with the choices.
Also, if you are looking at older, well made machines, some items from Marx and others that are no longer around but are made well and are pretty cheap on auction. As to Train Shows, not many good deals to be had. It seems most vendors are very proud of the items. I have had better luck going to train stores and looking in the boxes on the floor.
Good Luck,
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
As said before all of the manufacturers make quality items, but what you should look at is their service. the ability to get great friendly and convenient service I think is what we should look for in the company and discuss in this thread. just my .02. with that said I have many pw lionels, 1 modern lionel, 1 k-line and monday I'm ordering a weaver brass. I have not had any service issues with any of them.
Tek,
Personally, I think that the best thing for you to do would be to go to a store or a friend that has both brands so that you can compare them. I am partial to MTH, but that doesn't mean that I don't like Lionel. I do, but I have had more problems with new Lionel products than I have had with new MTH products. I have had a few minor problems with some MTH, but they haven't been as severe or frequent as my Lionel problems. I am not trying to bash Lionel in any way, I am just stating what my experience has been. I also don't have anything against any diehard Lionel fans. Buy what you like. Remember, the only thing that matters in the hobby is that you are happy with your decisions.
Tek, the key statement you make is that you are looking at "0-scale." There's both O gauge and 0 scale. The 0 gauge items are not necessarily to accurate 1:48 dimensions (and mostly not) but run on 3-rail track. The term used for these trains is "traditionally sized" and there are far more of these kinds of trains out there, as they have been made for a great period of time and in far greater quantities than the 0-scale items.
The 0-scale trains are a pretty recent trend in 3-rail trains. Though true scale items have been made over the years, it is mostly during the past decade that has seen the unprecidented growth in this area. Most of the new scale detailed items you are seeing in catalogs and at shows are from totally new tooling, and so have that consideration factored into the prices. Every single 3-rail train improter has stated publically that these locomotives NEVER make profit on the first or second production runs, because of all the initial development and tooling costs. And now factor in quantities produced.
Most 0-scale locomotives very seldom have a single production run over a couple thousand pieces, but meanwhile can cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to bring to market. Now add in the added cost of assembly for the additional electronics (for example, MTH admitted they put between $6-10M into development alone of their DCS system), and that might help you understand the prices.
HO trains sell in quantities that are FAR greater than 0-scale trains. And even HO stuff is getting more pricey due to all the added electronics now coming with many HO locomotives. Even the 0-gauge traditional trains still sell in quantities much higher than the more accurate 0-scale trains. While the 4-4-2 Columbia style steam engine that comes in many Lionel starter sets gets dumped on by those who like more scale proportions and detail, that little stater steamer has been made in large quantities for the past 17 years. Lionel admitted their recent Polar Express train set broke sales records for a starter train set. Items that sell better and that don't have tied in development/tooling costs will be more affordable.
Now, to get specific, I like the simple traditionally sized trains that are frequently also referred to as "low end" or "starter products" that come without the digital control systems. I have one Lionel 4-4-2 starter set steamer that is now 17 years old and still runs just fine. I think the K-Line S-2 switcher (with its' origins with the MARX tooling) is the very best 3-rail train loco ever made for the money. There are also the fine Williams locomotives, the new Atlas Industrial Rail line-up (their new Atlantic steam looks nice and will probably sell very well), and the RMT products. For the short term, Lionel is having made and marketing a number of the former K-Line products, most of which are reasonable priced: the Alco S-2 for $80 list, the MP-15 for $100 list and the basic K-Line 4-6-2 steamer for $120 list. All those locos rank a TEN in my book. There's a new traditionally sized Lionel Hudson for $200 list (in the last Lionel catalog, 2007, vol. 2) which appears to me to be a great deal compared to other Lionel products.
I have a great number of these K-Line made locos and have been very pleased with them. Even the Lionel made locos under the MPC banner (which get dumped on by many today) I have found to be excellent runners, easy to repair (with parts being available unlike many of the new scale products), and absolutely affordable. I've bought MPC-era steamers for as little as $15 with the shipping, have fixed them up and now they look and run like champions. I have a 1973 vintage MPC NW-2 with plastic gears - I paid $40 for it in 1995 - and it runs great. I made some minor repairs and some alterations, but again parts are easily available for these kinds of lower end products.
Matter of fact, despite all the criticism that Lionel MPC locos coming with nylon gears, I have only had to replace one nylon gear of all the MPC vintage locos I own, and ALL are over 35 years old. I'd say that's a very good track record. And again, most Lionel MPC vintage are very reasonably priced today.
There are affordable trains out there.... it depends what you want to have and what you can live with.
So if you don't mind the less-than-accurate scale dimensions and details, and can live without the added control electronics, there are very affordable products available that are simple, well made and will provide years of fun operating.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Like willpick mentions you will get a whole bunch of differant answers!
For me I like Williams locomotives and tenders, post war Lionel, current Lionel and MTH rolling stock. Atlas has good quality but can be pricey! With Williams I can replace the reversing unit with a bridge rectifier when they go bad very easy, only draw back is one direction from then on. Also Williams has good quality at affordable prices and metal gears, no body else that I know of can claim all metal gears!
Not too fond of traction tires on any brand as I tend to wear the things out, especially MTH traction tires.
Lee F.
If you like it and can afford it, then it's the right engine. I think the line in the sand has been drawn over and over about the various quality and features available. Some people spend big bucks on old stuff that has value to them. Personally, if you have to explain why you paid $1,000 bucks for an old train, then collecting is probably not for you.
I like the newest features and stuff they make, but the purist want to throw toggle switches and yell "whose got my block" and they are happy. You can imagine the variety of ways to ask that question.
The more pointed question would be. "Who makes the junk to stay away from?" But then you would probably get the same amount of answers.
DITTO on the traction tires
I liked the comparison to cars, trains and most other consumer goods compare. I recently purchased an ives 1100 electric steamer from 1915 from the neighbor of the original owner it had been laying in a box for around 80 years. Wrapped in 1925 newspaper. I brought it home and applied test leads, it took right off like the day it was made. Personally i dont buy trains made of plastic, not to say their is anything wrong with them, thats just what i like. So my advice, buy what you like if you decide afterwards you dont like it, sell it on ebay. You cont go wrong that way.
Tek34 wrote: I'm new to the hobby and find it difficult to justify the price of engines I have found at shows or on ebay without more knowledge. Perhaps some quality guidelines would help new comers on this forum going into the show season. What are some good values? What should we look for? Or avoid? Thanks in advance for any input.
It would be nice if one company ALWAYS put out "the best" products. About 10 years ago, one of the biggest "dogs", car wise, was the Mercedes station wagon. Even VW had a "dog" in '62. Maytag USED to make very high quality washers, etc...now it's junk.
Once in a while you will notice wide-spread problems associated with a particular train, like the Lionel Acela, but usually it's a case of a "few lemons in the mix". Joe
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