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siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:32 AM

(photo courtesy: www.trainweb.org)

We open at 6 AM.(all times zones!) (Don’t ask how we do that!)[swg]

WEDNESDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of POSTS

G’day! Mid-week already! Start the day right here with a hot cuppa freshly brewed “Joe,” a little something from The Mentor Village Bakery pastry case topped off with an order from our Menu Board for a <light> or <traditional> breakfast. Sounds good, eh[?][tup]

NAME THE two CASH REGISTERS!

. . . . from Pete “Tilla the Hun”
. . . . from Russell “Pink Floyd”
. . . . from Doug “Johnny Cash”
. . . . from CM3 “Tom’s Totaler” & “The Vulture’s Vault”
. . . . from BK “Justin Cash” & “Winsome Cash”
. . . . from Rob “The Cashinator”
Selections to be made on Friday!

Daily Wisdom

When asked if the movie, “Fatal Attraction,” had frightened him, he replied, “Only the scary parts.”
(yogi-ism)

Info for the Day:

Railways of Europe #2 – TGV of France arrives on Thursday in 3 parts – watch for it!

Railroads from Yesteryear: Northern Pacific (NP) arrives next Tuesday! This will be the THEME for the DAY!

* Weekly Calendar:

Today: Pike Perspective’s Day!
Thursday: Fish ‘n Chips Nite!
Friday: Pizza Nite! & Steak ‘n Fries Nite!
Saturday: Steak ‘n Trimmin’s Nite! – and – ENCORE! Saturday

SUMMARY

Name …..…………… Date/Time …..…..………. (Page#) .. Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 05:22:43 (253) Tuesday’s Info & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 05:29:06 (253) RRs from YESTERYEAR #7 – Southern Pacific

(3) passengerfan Al Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 07:13:10 (253) Streamliner #65 – SP Lark trains

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 07:22:59 (253) Theme for the Day! SP – Fallen Flag

(5) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 07:45:16 (253) For: Order of the Stools

(6) passengerfan Al Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 07:59:20 (253) Theme for the Day! SP – streamlined cars

(7) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 08:21:23 (253) Acknowledgments, etc.

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 08:32:04 (253) Theme for the Day! SP – Ad (1951)

(9) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 08:57:16 (253) Inclusive Post, Theme for the Day!, “stolen” joke, etc.

(10) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 12:01:31 (253) Acknowledgments, etc.

(11) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 12:21:54 (253) Theme for the Day! SP – Ad (1951)

(12) BudKarr BK Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 13:01:18 (253) Informative Post!

(13) LoveDomes Lars Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 14:40:38 (253) Informative Post & Theme for the Day! SP

(14) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 15:22:32 (254) Inclusive Post, etc.

(15) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 15:24:40 (254) Theme for the Day! SP – Ad (1951)

(16) felixg Felix Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 15:28:24 (254) off topic!

(17) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 15:46:30 (254) Theme for the Day! SP – Classic Loco Rosters!

(18) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006 , 15:47:29 (254) Acknowledgments, etc.

(19) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 16:02:06 (254) etc.

(20) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 18:46:16 (254) Theme for the Day! SP – Ad (1949)

(21) railfan955 none Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 23:38:59 (254) ???

NOW SHOWING:

The Mentor Village Emporium Theatre
. . . . . Double Features, all of the time . . . . .

. . . Sunday, February 19th thru 25th: Fahrenheit 451 (1966) starring: Oskar Werner, Julie Christie & Cyril Cusack – and – Northwest Frontier (1959) starring: Kenneth More, Lauren Bacall & Herbert Lom.

That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

Happy Railroading! Siberianmo

passengerfan

Member since
March 2004
From: Central Valley California
2,841 posts

Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:57 AM

Good Morning Tom and the rest of the gang. Time for a coffee and a crumpet from the Mentor Village Bakery.

PASSENGERFAN AL"S STREAMLINER CORNER # 66

SUNSET LIMITED SP Trains 1-2 August 20, 1950 Los Angeles – New Orleans daily each direction 1,996 miles 44 hours 15 minutes

Eight days after the two CASCADE train consists entered service the SP introduced their all new Budd lightweight stream-lined SUNSET LIMITED consists. The SUNSET LIMITED had been the finest of the Southern Pacific long distance trains yet it was the last to be streamlined. The reason for this was simply the train had no direct competition between New Orleans and Los Angeles. For power all new ALCO PA-PB-PA sets were assigned between Los Angeles and El Paso. Beyond El Paso to New Orleans the T&NO a Southern Pacific subsidiary assigned a pair of ALCO PA-PA sets for power. Between Los Angeles and El Paso consists of the new SUNSET LIMITED were four-teen cars and between El Paso and New Orleans consists ran twelve cars. The Texas & Pacific forwarded a SUNSET LIMITED 10 Roomette 6 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car from El Paso to Dallas daily, this sleeper originating in Los Angeles. Each eastbound SUNSET LIMITED dropped a 10 Roomette 6 Double Bedroom Sleeping car nightly at San Antonio and picked up the previous nights waiting 10 Roomette 6 Double Bedroom Sleeping car for forwarding to New Orleans.
The SUNSET LIMITED required five sets of equipment for daily operation. With the new Budd cars far more costly than the Pullman Standard built cars used in other Southern Pacific trains. But the Southern Pacific soon realized the Budd built cars were a far better investment when car maintenance figures began coming in. The Budd built cars with their disc brakes alone saved the Southern Pacific a small fortune in wheel turning charges alone when compared to Pullman Standard built cars. The paint scheme applied to the Budd stainless steel cars was simply a Daylight Red letter board with Aluminum lettering SOUTHERN PACIFIC. All that was necessary to return the train to a like new appearance at the completion of a trip was a trip through the car washer.

INAUGURAL CONSIST LEAVING LOS ANGELES

6018 EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

5908 EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5909 EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5005 Baggage 30’Railway Post Office Car

3102 Baggage 27-Crew Dormitory Car

2359 48- Revenue Seat Divided Coach Newsstand

2364 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

2365 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

2366 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

10407 “Pride of Texas” 32- Seat Coffee Shop 14- Seat Tavern Lounge Bar Car

9000 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9001 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

10210 “Audubon” 48- Seat Dining Car

2987 “French Quarter” Barber Shop Bar 40- Seat Lounge Car

9002 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9003 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9004 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9025 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Blunt End)

In the above consist coach 2366 operated between Los Angeles and El Paso only.
Sleeping Car 9000 operated as far as El Paso in the SUNSET LIMITED and was forwarded from El Paso by the Texas & Pacific to and from Dallas.
Sleeping Car 9004 operating in the above consist ran as far as San Antonio where it was set out and forwarded 24 hours later in the next eastbound SUNSET LIMITED from San Antonio to New Orleans.
Westbound there was no set out sleeping car at San Antonio. Also at El Paso the westbound SUNSET LIMITED picked up the westbound Sleeping Car that originated in Dallas set out by the Texas & Pacific and returned it and the set out coach to Los Angeles.

INAUGURAL CONSIST DEPARTING NEW ORLEANS

210 (T&NO) ALCO PA1 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

211 (T&NO) ALCO PA1 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

5010 Baggage 30’Railway Post Office Car

3106 Baggage 27-Crew Dormitory Car

2363 48- Revenue Seat Divided Coach Newsstand

2375 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

2376 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

10411 “Pride of Texas” 32- Seat Coffee Shop 14- Seat Lounge Bar Car

9021 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9022 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

10215 “Audubon” 48-Seat Dining Car

2992 “French Quarter” Barber Shop Bar 40- Seat Lounge Car

9023 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9024 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9029 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Blunt End)

The two consists departing from Los Angeles and New Orleans on August 21 are listed as follows:

Los Angeles departure SUNSET LIMITED August 21, 1950.

6004 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

5906 EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5907 EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5006 Baggage 30’Railway Post Office Car

3103 Baggage 27-Crew Dormitory Car

2360 48- Revenue Seat Divided Coach Newsstand

2367 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

2368 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

2369 44- Revenue Seat Leg Rest Coach

10408 “Pride of Texas” 32- Seat Coffee Shop 14- Seat Lounge Bar Car

9005 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9006 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

10211 “Audubon” 48- Seat Dining Car

2988 “French Quarter” Barber Shop Bar 40- Seat Lounge Car

9007 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9008 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9009 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9026 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Blunt End)

New Orleans departure SUNSET LIMITED August 21, 1950.

208 (T&NO) ALCO PA1 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

209 (T&NO) ALCO PA1 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

5009 Baggage 30’ Railway Post Office Car

3105 Baggage 27-Crew Dormitory Car

2362 48- Revenue Seat Divided Coach Newsstand

2373 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

2374 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

10410 “Pride of Texas” 32- Seat Coffee Shop 14- Seat Lounge Bar Car

9017 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9018 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

10410 “Audubon” 48- Seat Dining Car

2991 “French Quarter” Barber Shop Bar 40- Seat Lounge Car

9019 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9020 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

9028 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Blunt End)

Beginning December 15, 1958 the train became known as simply the SUNSET. LIMITED was dropped from the trains name on that date.

The SUNSET route was selected by Amtrak for operation in 1971 although by that time the train was reduced to tri-weekly.

TTFN AL

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:57 AM

[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup]

Railways of Europe – TGV of France – in 3 Parts - arrives on Track #1 tomorrow. Watch for it!

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]

[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup]

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

coalminer3

Member since
January 2001
From: WV
1,251 posts

Posted by coalminer3 on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:50 AM

Good Morn ing Barkeep and all Present; coffee, please; round for the house and $ for the jukebox.

Lovely day here as we got 6" of "no accumulation." Who needs Olympic hockey when we have all skate on the local highways (lots of fun with log buggies and coal trucks) Gas is $2.19/gal. today - as our 'steamed proprietor noted, I, too, did not need any today.

Most recent issue of Classic Trains has a feature on the TH&B - something of interest to more than a few who stop by.

Since today is Pike Perspectives (no Boris, we're not going ice fishing) - let's talk abt. Lionel and AF ads. The last episode of Tracks Ahead shown locally (it runs on our PBS affiliate here now and then) had a most interesting story on Lionel catalogs.

They showed pictures of some of the catalog covers and some of the few pieces of Lionel catalog art that remained. Lionel stressed family values and the story explained how this theme was worked into their ads.

The story line also told how the catalog art was done by various commercial houses, used in the catalogs and then tossed out (!) by the commercial houses as they considered it to be "just another job." Some of it was preserved, however, and it was like stepping into a time machine.

The outstanding piece I saw was a color rendering of Bob Butterfield holding a Lionel Hudson. You have probably seen the ad as he's showing the locomotive to a pair of youngsters. "Just Like Mine..." reads the copy. Butterfield, for those who might not recall or never heard of him, was a NYC engineer who drove the "Century" between Harmon and Albany. There is a thinly disguised version of him featured in Ed Hungerford's book Run of the Century.

The episode went on to show some American Flyer art. It turns out that a lot of their material was saved. It was interesting to see some of the copy for their product as well. Fascinating episode; you will enjoy it.

One other piece of advertising I found in an old Life magazine was for Camel cigarettes. This featured a CB&Q engineer who handled the Zephyr on its record run to Chicago. According to the copy, his "nerves were frayed" after the trip, but he smoked a Camel and "felt fine" again. The picture showed him in the cab door of the Zephyr in full engineer's regalia with a camel in hand. As a long-retired smoker, all I can say is they don't write 'em like they usta.

Again thanks to all for SP material.

work safe

trolleyboy

Member since
May 2014
3,727 posts

Posted by trolleyboy on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:08 AM

Morning Tom, just one lite breakfast this am, and a big coffee to wash it down.

Tom recieved the email, the response is off somewhere between this keyboard and yours. [tup]. I must say that I like the picture on today's summery,just a really really good shot. [tup][tup] Will drop a bit of P&P on you in a few moments.

Al Wow after yesterday's I didn't thuink you would have any SP info left. [bow][;)]

CM3 And how are you this fine AM. ( other than cold ) I too did not need any gas today and the pumps are at 75 cents a litre, lowest it's been in a good 6 months. Darn these fuel effivient cars.[swg] Interesting stuff on Lionel, I'm actually supprised that their "copy" has disappeared,s eeing that they are still manufacturing trains,unlike AF which has been gone for quiye a while now. Funny how that happens. I don't get tracks ahead all that often anymore, our PBS station out of Buffalo does not regularly run it, once in a blue moon, usually during thier fundraising drive [banghead] nothing induces me not to watch more than that,something with the personalities of their fund raisers they just make my skin crawl. Dom't get me wrong it's a great form of TV , they just need a better group of spokes people. Boris wring a round i've strayed a bit there. bwooong gwooong bwoong BORIS put that perch back !

On to todays pikes perspectives. As you folks may or may not know, I just ripped down the benchwork , and transported it to the Attic bedroom(s) Heather's not aware of the plural yet. [;)][:O]. Anyway it's affording me more room and less obsticles,the original basement bedroom had a door two windows and a closet (to which adequate access was required ) had to be bridged by some form of removable benchwork - not a particularly operationally sound or feasable thing.

I can now go a bit bigger ( layout not scale ) and add a semi second deck on which a greatly expanded streetcar system and city scene will be built. So sawdust in my ears time again.I'll also be able to use the roundhouse and diesel shop models that i have forthe regular trains on the main part of the layout,may even have room for a small yard ( neither would have happened in the basement )

Well folks I'm away fer now.Back soon.

Rob

trolleyboy

Member since
May 2014
3,727 posts

Posted by trolleyboy on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:38 AM

Okay back with another Classic diesels segment. I'm thinking of talking about all things diesel in this new stall of the roundhouse,see latest index near the top of the page. If anuone has a speacial request let me know hear or via email,If I haave the info or can find it I'll post it for you,or better yet post it yourselves as well, the more fumes the better. [:D][swg][:-^]

Enjoy Rob

CLASSIC DIESELS # 2 THE LOCO COMPANIES pt 1

ALCO PRODUCTS

American Locomotive Company of Schenectady NY. It an dit's predecessors had been in the locomotive business since the 1850's (steam).And were one of the largest steam locomotive builders in NA. The company changed names to ALCO Products in 1956, Alco turned out it's last diesel locomotive in 1969. Loco's produced were the altime favorites, FA,FB,PA,PB ,RS1's2's,&3's etc .They built for all the major US and CDB RY's as well as some overseas export contracts.

BBD

Bombardier Inc of Montreal Quebec,this was the sucessor of MLW ( CDN ALCO )From the purchase of MLW in 1975 Bombardier continued building locomotives with Alco design 251 series motors until 1985. Mostly for CN but also for VIA Mexico the Providemse and Worchester RY and a few south american contracts. VIA LRC's . CN and P&W M420's CN HR 412's and HR 616's

BLW

Baldwin locomotive works, of Eddystone PA. A long time heavy weight in the steam locomotive world, they werea late joiner to the fiesel building fray,the companies history dated back to the 1830's !They did not have an easy transition to diesel manufactirure lagging far behind Alco and Gm. Baldwin merged with Lima-Hamilton to add thier deisel expertise ( mostly small industrial types )to their line up in 1950. BLH Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton continued to struggle with their switcher and raod switcher lines and as a result produced their last locomotives in 1956.

CLC

Candian Locomotive Company,of Kingston Ontario.This was a major builder of steam locomotives ( Baldwin Designs ).In the 1940's they began to market Baldwin and Whitcomb industrial diesels in Canada.Latre they manufactured diesels of fairbanks Morse design for the canadian RY's C-liners,trainmasters etc.It also brought out some smalldiesel designs of it's own, and produced under licence davenport-Porter industrial diesels when that compant stopped producing these locomotives. CLC disapeared in the mid 60's

DAV

Davenport Locomotive works, of Davenport Iowa.They produced a line of industrial locomotives and occationally built small switchers for class one locomotives. In 1950 Davenport added H.K. Porter's locomotives to it's own line but ceased building units in 1956.Porter was also known for it's small logging and industrial steam locomotives of the teens to the 40's as well.

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:06 AM

Good Morning Gents,

Nice to see CM3 & Rob make their morning visits! Also, twenty fingers Al still chugging along with the SP!![swg]

Good dialogue all around, Gents and much appreciated this AM![tup] Appreciate the postiive comments and vibes with regard to the happenings 'round here and of course, the Posts.[tup]

Thanx for your Classics Index and the Classic Diesels #2 - the first reminds me that I'm overdue with mine and the latter tells me that there's a lot I still don't know - good job![tup][tup]

I'd say a couple of guys were rather conspicuous by their absence yesterday - but it's happened before on these "Theme days." The one guy you'd expect to "jump all over" the "Theme" just didn't show. His loss, if - that is the pages aren't reviewed. One can lead a horse to water . . . . and I've tried to ensure that everyone gets notified of these "special Posts" well in advance of the date.

The talk of "Pike Perspectives" brings to mind something that I've meant to share with you guys. Here's a referernce book that is replete with some fine information about Lionel Trains (from "my" era) along with some mighty fine pictures of the rolling stock & locos along with the advertisements that many of us recall from childhood.

Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains (1945-1969)

Now, I haven't been a Lionel fan during my adulthood (recent purchase of the Polar Express is an exception!). Everything I hold 'dear' comes from childhood. Without getting too far into my personal life, let's just say that all of my trains from back then are just memories. This catalog is one great resource to bring 'em back to life. Although I must admit that the freight set I had is not listed. The author goes to great pains to elaborate on all aspects of the products put out by Lionel. Perhaps mine was one of those "promotional" sets that were sold during the Christmas Season in so many department stores and toy shops. These are not listed in catalogs and the like. So, the best I could do was to find each piece - look 'em up and try to "reassmble" my train that way. I've come close - but still no cigar!

The set was an O-27 powered by their "standard" transformer of the day. The loco was a PRR S2 Steam Turbine #2020 with a whistling tender. The loco had MagneTraction and handled the smoke pellets. I recall the cars being a wrecker caboose (DL&W) - a crane car (PRR) - an operating log car (Lionel Lines) - a gondola car (NYC - I think) and a searchlight car (Lionel Lines). Over the years I added to this set and the roadnames have all run together in my mind., I think I wound up with about 15 freight cars. Also had assembled a piece-by-piece passenger train - kind of an abomination - a SW1 (PRR) - with 2 illuminated coaches and an observation car (green cars, I seem to recall.) Bought 'em all at a hobby shop featuring used stuff - that's where my paper route and grocery clerk wages ultimately went![swg] I added a great transformer to it all - not the ZW, which I used to dream about! - but the next in line, the KW. Was really a fine power house and operated everything just fine. I had 3 sets of turnouts switches) that's 3 RH, 3 LH and the illuminated bumpers to go with 'em for the sidings. It was my "empire," and although gone, gone, gone - it still "lives" in that place we call the "mind's eye!"

Later!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:40 PM

G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #69

Here’s something to enjoy regarding the RAILWAYS OF FRANCE from a 1933 advertisement in my personal collection.

. . . . . . . . . . . France . . . . . . . . . . .

for new scenes and new interests . . . not the usual faces and amusements of your favorite resort . . . but PARIS

Your aperitif at a tiny sidewalk table, a book mart along the Seine, Versailles and its glamorous past . . . Le Touquet and La Braule for week-ends.

Rouen with its blue roofs massing under pointed Gothic towers and silver-toned bells . . . the fashionable seaside resorts of Deauville, Dinard and Biarritz . . . curious Carnae of the Druid stones

Down the Loire to Chambord, an architectural marvel of the renaissance . . . Orleans, of the time of Caesar, the capital of the Carnute people where centuries later Jeanne d’arc met her King.

Renew your strength and youth at the Spas of Vichy, Aix les Bains and Vittel . . . the majestic forests of Voeges . . . Alsace, land of storks

Cannes, Monte Carlo flaunt a luxurious sub-tropical beauty along that Azure Sea with Corsica situating under a cloudless sky . . ./ and far above, rugged mountains tower into sparkling Alpine glaciers

The finest and fastest trains with tariffs of less than two cents a mile through roads our ancestors traveled when the middle ages were young . . . hotels and pensions cheaper than ever before . . . villas, garlanded with roses and honeysuckle

Your travel agency has brochures that are little journeys in themselves,

. . . . . RAILWAYS of FRANCE . . . . .

. . . . . 1 EAST 57TH STREET NEW YORK . . . . .

Enjoy! Thumbs Up [tup]

Tom

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

BudKarr

Member since
September 2005
From: Alberta's Canadian Rockies
331 posts

Posted by BudKarr on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:00 PM

Greetings Captain Tom and all assembled!

Another fine day, in the 20s (F) and partly cloudy with some intermittent snow showers, nothing heavy. Just paradise up here in the high country!<smile> Before you break out that whistle of yours (Tweeter, is it?) I will have a Johnny Walker Black, straight up if you please. Nothing to eat right now, still settling the sumptuous feast my love prepared this morning. Brunch around here is a 5 course meal! I am a large man, but not in the places where I will “grow” should I continue eating this way!<smile>

I have about 10 pages to go in order to get back to where I was before my European trip began. Sure is a lot of info posted on this thread.

Captain Tom, how about dipping into that “Sack ‘o Cash” (as you referred to it) and give the guys a drink on me! Ok – you can hold off until someone shows up. What in the world has happened to this place? Many changes, both in people who frequent it and the postings. Both are fine with me, just different and it shows when one has been away for as long as I. No point in my getting into the personalities and the like, for it could easily become a point of irritation for some. But I will offer this – perhaps the cream has indeed risen to the top and the guys you have as regulars today, were those who were your true nucleus all along. Something to think about.

Lars, my friend, I would say you have had your share – and then some – of just plain BS. Time for things to turn upwards for you and your Mrs. That situation you described about the insurance adjuster might seem rather preposterous to some, but I can tell you first hand that those kinds of screw ups happen and happen more frequently than many of us realize. While I have no “handle” on what happened in her office and who dispatched her in the wrong direction, but when you consider the “time is money’ approach to business, some people become really careless and do not double check, even triple check, before making a decision. If life and limb were on the line, as you experienced in your career Captain Tom, this surely would not be anything to smile at. She is a fortunate young lady that whoever occupied that house was not home. My guess is that the company’s responsible person who sent her, will never, ever get so much as a slap on the wrist for the foul up. That is what would bother me and does. Hope the sunshine is not too far off, Lars!

That book on Lionel trains is something I have ordered, straight away, from amazon.com. It looks like a “keeper” and I am looking forward to reviewing it. Maybe my train set is in it – should be, as I believe it is from the late 1940s. Perhaps one day I will have something more to offer for the Pike Perspectives aspect of the weekly goings on.

I never fully appreciated just how much rail impacted Canada until spending as much time as I have in this part of the country. Without it, there would be no population centers in between the coasts and Great Lakes. Just that simple. The railroads were and still are a vital link to the societal and financial well being of the country. Had I to do it again, I would write my Thesis on that subject for one of my higher level degrees.

It is rather easy for one to get a warped sense of reality on these Forums (not just Kalmbach) where everyone seems to “know” everything about everything. Many, I believe, are pretty much the Lemming in that if they see it, they instantly believe it (or “follow”) and we all know what the results of that kind of behavior leads to! There was a fellow who used to provide some rather insightful URLs here and also provided historically accurate accountings of railroading in his family. If each of us would be so inclined to state what is, rather than what “shudda, wudda, cudda,” would not we all have a better reading experience? That has been one of my major drawbacks with the Forums – sorting through the nonsense in order to reach the facts. Perhaps it has to do with the “mix” in the cyber world where credentials are not required. Then again, we have become a society where “Blogging” seems to rule, irregardless and irrespective of the source(s). Oh my, look where I have drifted – I have overstated the case and wound up on a “soap box”! Drinks on me, if you please!<grin>

Another observation, if you please. Is it me or are there more of these “survey” things being put out all over the Forums? As I have been scrolling “back through time” both here and on this particular Forum, I have noticed all kinds of nonsense questions. Some even responded to by guys from here! Now the question(s) may appear rather legitimate, but when you check the submitter’s profile and get very little, I would be wary. Secondly, what in the world do these people “do” with the information? We know the answer – nothing. It is that spur of the moment, speak before thinking approach, that comes so easily here in cyber space.

Looks like we will be heading down to Edmonton pretty soon, or Calgary – I am not certain which comes first. These early days of retirement have me wondering whether I am in charge of my calendar, or have I ceded it elsewhere?<smile> Nevertheless, we have some “hob nobbing” to take care of, some administrative matters to attend to, and some fun to partake in. Just wish I could get her to ride in the helo!<grin>

My hopes are to check back sometime tomorrow as I am looking forward to your segment on the French TGV trains. Rode those once or twice, but as usual, not for pleasure, although I must say the experience was pleasurable. No play on words there, just that transportation to me is a matter of getting from one point to another. Anything that adds to it has to be of significant note, otherwise it just blends in with the décor, so to speak. The TGV is a fine vehicle and well done. Kudos to the French for that one!

Hope to return tomorrow, but surely before the weekend.

BK

pwolfe

Member since
February 2005
From: mid mo
1,054 posts

Posted by pwolfe on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:29 PM

Hi Tom and all.

A pint of the Bathams XXX. and a round for the SP day. I had read some of the your TOM and AL's posts when I had to do something when I came back, page 253 would not load after several attempts. I hoped it would be OK today but NO. Page 252& 254 OK but no 253. I must apologise for not replying to any who posted later on that page.

From what I was able to read another great theme day [tup][tup]Are there any more details on the Mussel Slough incident. [?]

ROB Thanks for the SP diesel roster and good to see the Classic Diesels. It is strange how some very well known steam loco builders were unable to convert to diesel construction. It was the same in the U.K.

CM3 Great post on the Lionel catalogs.At the time the well known engineers had almost star status. In the UK loco drivers like Bill Hoole and Laurie Earle were household names in the 30s.

BK Just caught your post. Good words[tup] .

TOM Thanks for sharing your post on the Lionel set it brought back memories for me. How I wish I still had some of my set. I had a TRIX wreaking train with a 0-4-0 diesel switcher, crane, mess coach, and brake van. I have never seen this set at any model meets in England. [:(]
Looking forward to learning more about the French TGVs tomorrow
PETE.

LoveDomes

Member since
January 2006
From: northeast U.S.
1,225 posts

Posted by LoveDomes on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:37 PM

Good Afternoon Tom and whoever may be in the back room!

I NEED a JD on the rocks and I NEED it NOW! Skip the hero and lemme have a couple of those hard boiled eggs from the jar. It’s been one of THOSE days.<groan>

So the guys were supposed to be here, bright eyed, bushy tailed and ready to go at daybreak. Sure, and Santa Claus is really Tim Allen. It is approaching 3 here on the right coast and we haven’t seen hide nor hair of ‘em yet. Looks like that “estimate” of theirs is off to a bad start. The “beast” is on the phone right now!<smile>

Got a call from the insurance company though and they asked if we had cashed the check! Now that conjures up all kinds of images, huh? My response was yes (although we haven’t been to the bank yet). The guy sorta groaned a bit and said, “Well, okay, but (she) shudda had a second adjuster check out the situation before writing the check.” Gee whiz, *** Tracy, and just how long have you people been doing this? First you send the gal into some possible bad news situation, then you tell me I shouldn’t cash your check! Oh this is just not our day, week or month! Is the Penthouse Suite available for the weekend??<swg>

Couldn’t agree with you more, BK and the way of today’s world surely isn’t what I was accustomed to in my line of work. Competence must be one of those “banned” words from this new breed of individual who will supposedly “lead us” to even “greater accomplishments” this century. HA – or as I’ve seen here a few times, BARF!! Double BARF. I wouldn’t waste the powder it would take to blow some of these AH types to Kingdom Come – and if you are thinking how “cruel” I must be. You’re blankety-blank correct on that one, Mate! Barkeep – gimme another one!

I’m probably sounding like a broken record, but as the days move forward, I’m moving backwards in terms of trying to catch up here. All I’m able to really do is read the page I’m on and perhaps some of the one before . . . time just isn’t my own.

Sorry that I haven’t contributed a name for your cash register or registers. I will – just have to think a bit on it. Good idea, though.[tup]

Nice post on the “Frenchies” and looks like we’ll get a bit more tomorrow, huh? Well, I’m going to step on it once again – but these folks are not my favorites. Their trains are something else though – I too have traveled aboard the TGV and it is quite an experience.

However, does anyone recall the Renault? How about the Citroen? I think there were a few others out there that didn’t quite make it here in the North American markets. Must have been a reason![swg] Why the attitude you ask? Well just check back through history – not the revisionist kind – the real stuff and you’ll determine the reason why some of us feel the way we do. Two world wars to save their bacon should be a good start. I apologize for the political-nationalistic-anti & mean spirited comments! There – have I covered the bases? Drinks on me from the “Lars Box” if you please! I’m outta tens today.

Sorry Gents, but I have to skeedaddle. Wife is sounding like she’s losing it – so I need to provide whatever degree of support she’ll permit![swg]

Just caught your Post, Pete! Sorry I haven't the time to comment . . . . other than to say perhaps that loading issue has to do with your computer. It may be time to "purge" the system of unwanted files - they do pile up rather fast and gobble up lots and lots of memory. Just a thought . . .

Until the next time!

Lars

West Coast S

Member since
February 2005
From: Los Angeles
1,619 posts

Posted by West Coast S on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:06 PM

Afternoon Tom and the gang..I second a round as a toast to SP day!!

Well, had to keep medical appointments yesterday followed by the "honey do" list which kept me on the go until the wee hours of the morning...But great job with SP day, Might I add that had Harriman not passed away in 1908 the UP/SP merger would have been a reality, UP held a controlling interest in CP/SP after 1904 and the intention was to combine SP/UP and spin the CP off to a third unknown interest, thought now to be the Guild interest (WP/D&RGW).

Upon Harriman's death his business practices came under scrunity by the federal governement who took notice due to the bitter contestment of his will and estate as it was ligated in federal court. The ruling, handed down in 1913 ordered UP to sell all outstanding SP interest and for both roads to devest themself of controlling interest of the Central Pacific. Upon gaining independence SP quickly merged the CP and forced the WP/Rio Grande to accept terms that gave SP the majority of the business and halted WP expansion plans. At least until the mid 20's certain
Classes of locomotives remained sub-lettered for the CP. The SP incorporated the CP into the SP in 1946.

Trainmasters on the SP...PartII

TM-3, TM4, trainmasters were tested on the Shasta Division were the cool, dense air was to their liking, there was no doubt that when sufficent units were available that would be the assigned district. SP had a policy of assigning new purchases outside California to avoid paying sales tax, FM did not forsee them being assigned to El Paso where the gritty desert enviorment wreaked havoc with the crankshafts due to ingested dust, FM had no quick fixes, other then to reassign the units, that SP was dead set against and shop forces undertook a improved filter design that reduced the dammage but did not totaly eliminate scored crankshafts. Eventually, shop forces and officials became tired of the labor needed to overhaul these opposed piston prime movers and the decision was reached to reassign them to the Bay Area, SP's collective unwanted orphan terrority were there were no dust problems and shop were well versed in maintaince of odd power. No doubt the initial defective filter design soured SP on additional FM purchases.

They arrived in San Francisco in October 1957, they we found to be well suited for commute duties and quickly spelled the end for all remaing steam power, they had the speed and power in a single engine design to maintain the hectic three minute headway. During this period, during off peak hours and holidays the trainmasters would venture into freight duty, this lasted until complaints were recieved from shops not accustomed to the finer points of FM maintaince, since they did not get it, road failures often occured when in freight service and the units often were returned to the commute pool covered in grime,oil and dust. SP decreed by 1965 that the FM's be held only for commute duty, thus perserving their paint and mechanical reliabilty, in this capacity they served until 1975 as prestine as the day FM delivered them.

Strangely, the Southern's eight unit trainmaster order suffered from overheating in the many tunnels on the Rathole, elephant ears proved to be the answer, but it killed any future orders by the Southern and no doubt impacted the bying decisions by the N&W who was seeking new power to replace the remaining steam. SP never encountered overheating issues with the FM, despite greater mileage of tunnels and extensive desert terrority and elevation changes.

PWolf..Appreciate the number, i'll have to research its history

Barndad.. No harm, no foul, just good fun among friends.

Well, better got back to the grind stone, here's a fifty for the bar, now how about some Bob Wills Boogie on the juke.

Dave

SP the way it was in S scale

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:51 PM

G’day!

Time for a round on the house – this one is from BK’s “Bag ‘o Cash!”[swg]

A bit of a pickup today with the Posts after a rather “odd” day yesterday. We had the “numbers” but not quite when and where I thought they would be. Okay, so much for that!

BK Nice to see ya again and settling in! Don’t be in a rush, we’ll be here and there’s plenty of time for this ‘n that.[tup]

In your part of the world, I’d say there’s lots and lots to do and see, and now that you’ve made up your mind about retirement – go do and go see![swg]

Glad that the Lionel catalog perked your interests! You’ll enjoy it and should you decide to resurrect that childhood set of yours, it will serve as a great guide for future purchases.[tup]

I fully understand your feelings about travel and getting from place to place. There have been many, many times in my experiences where the flights all ran together – nothing special, nothing out of the ordinary, just a “vehicle,” so to speak. BUT when it comes to train travel – ah, that’s another thing entirely. I’ve ALWAYS been captivated by the sights and sounds of ‘em – even the smells (at times!).[swg] It’s only in my latter years that I’ve begun to maintain a notebook and take Pix. Just something that now goes with the territory.

You covered quite a bit of ground there with your Post and I’ll just leave it at that. I share many, many of your opinions and once again find that we have more in common than not. However, I long ago found that there’s no way that I will be able to return this society to where it once was. CHANGE, something that is all around us and like the TIDES themselves, will always come rolling in. Survivors must adapt – the alternative stinks.

Pete Sorry to hear about the difficulty you are experiencing with the Forum. My thinking is that it is a computer situation. Perhaps something to look into. I know from my experiences that a “routine” purging of files and the system itself MUST be done to keep the machine operating as advertised. It’s definitely strange that only one page will not load – but that sounds like a software glitch somewhere and “cleaning up” the disc, the cache, etc. may help.

Glad you can relate to the “stuff” about childhood trains. Certainly an important element in my growing up, and apparently yours. Wouldn’t it be great to replicate those toys we once had[?][yeah]

Lars All I can say is INCREDIBLE – absolutely incredible turn of events. If it wasn’t really happening to you, it would somehow be humorous. Reminds me a bit of the insensitive receptionists who work the desks at hospitals, doctor’s offices and the like. You know – “What’s your problem?” kind of “greeting.” Really makes one’s day, eh[?]

I would have done precisely the same thing about the check – screw ‘em. Idiots! Hopefully you will wake up to the rat-a-tat-tat-tat of a construction crew knocking the daylights out of your foundation wall. Isn’t that a lovely thought[?][?]

Tell us how you REALLY feel about our friends across the “Channel!”[swg]

Well, there’s one thing you can look forward to in all of this – things have “bottomed out,” so the only way to go now is “up!”[tup]

Dave Needless to say more than one wondered where the “King of SP” was yesterday. There was a “ton” of material Posted and more than likely won’t be again – far too much time and effort to do THAT over again. However, the pages LIVE and they are worth going through.

There’s plenty of quarters in the Coal Scuttle help yourself! Play the tunes that turn you on, Mate![swg]

Thanx for the fifty! Looks like we’ll be providing “freebies” for some time to come, given the Lars Box – BK’s Bag ‘o Cash – and now your fifty.[tup][tup]

If I’ve failed to recognize anyone or any rounds – let me say THANX to all now![swg]

LEON the Night Man takes the bar at 9 PM (Central)!

Later![tup]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]

Stick around a few minutes AFTER POSTING - The information you MISS may be for YOU!

Those who acknowledge the other guy, get acknowledged!

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

pwolfe

Member since
February 2005
From: mid mo
1,054 posts

Posted by pwolfe on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:12 PM

Hi Tom and all

A pint of Bathams please LEON.

TOM I have managed to get page 253 and it was well worth the effort to read it all[tup][tup].
But something is not quite right with the computer as I had to log my name back on to the site.[%-)]

LARS I do hope the basement problem is settled soon.
It would be interesting to hear about your TGV travelling, I have not been through the Chunnel yet. I dare say that when the High Speed link to the Channel Tunnel is finished in 2007 I will have to ride the new line even if it means having to go to France.

DAVE.Interesting post on the SP and the Trainmasters. Its strange how some locomotive sheds can get the best out of a certain class of loco whereas other depots cant get on with that type of loco at all[?].
Do you know anything about UP loco #761 [?].
PETE.

Anonymous

Member since
April 2003
305,205 posts

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:19 PM

Good evening Tom and all. I'll have a bottlemless draught, and allow me to buy everyone (Tom, Al, CM3, Lars, Rob and Dave) a round for the wonderful tribute to the SP yesterday. I finally came up with some material of my own .. but before I post, I also want to acknowlege Tom's fine Railways of France piece, as well as his Pikes Perspective of today. Liked your loco-company post as well, Mr. Rob. There is surely a great deal of good stuff at Our Place .... as usual.

Hopefully, "better late than never" can be applied to the following. As always ..humbly submitted to y'all

Southern Pacific, a National War Agency from BLF&E magazine, Jan. 1943

Ninety-nine-car freight train hauled by five locomotives on horseshoe curve near San Luis Obispo, California

The clock was turned back more than 73 years recently at Promontory, Utah, when on September 8, 1942, a little gathering of railroad men and history-minded persons re-created in reverse, the epochal ceremony of May 10, 1869, on which date the last spike was driven connecting the rails of the Central Pacific (now Southern Pacific) and the Union Pacific to give the nation its first trans-continental railroad.

For more then 38 years, or since the Southern Pacific’s 32-mile trestle and fill across Great Salt Lake was opened (April 1904) the pioneer rail line that twisted around the upper end of the lake has been a branch little used.

Now the government has taken up the track so that about 13,000 gross tons of rail and other materials can be put to vital wartime use. It was on this 120 miles of railroad track that construction crews of the Central Pacific and Union Pacific Paralleled their grades within shouting distance of each other before a final point of junction was decided upon. It was here the rival crews vied for tracklaying records as they raced their iron rails toward each other. Finally C.P. forces laid ten miles and 1800 feet of rail in one day to establish a record that still stands.

Southern Pacific, which had its beginning with the construction of the Central Pacific from Sacramento to Promontory, is one of the world’s largest transportation systems. The main lines of its 15,500 miles of railways in the United States and Mexico reach from Portland, Oregon, to Guadalajara, Mexico; from San Francisco to Ogden, Utah; and from Los Angeles and San Diego, California, to Tucumcari, New Mexico, and New Orleans, Louisiana, with networks of supplementary lines at both Pacific Coast and Gulf termini.

Cab-in-Front locomotive – one of the latest built by Baldwin for the Southern Pacific

Thus, skirting the western and southern borders of the nation and providing numerous gateways to the interior, the railroad is strategically located for the outstanding role it is playing in the war effort. Of this President A.T. Mercier says: “All the vast resources of the Southern Pacific in manpower and physical plant are being directed to our first duty and purpose of winning the war. Because this is a two-ocean war our varied transcontinental lines and routes and our lines along the Pacific Coast are vital to the job of mass transportation of troops, arms and supplies. Equally important is our transportation service for war industries – feeding the raw materials, carrying away finished products – serving as a part of the American railroads’ vast assembly line for mass production of airplanes, warships, munitions and allied facilities.”

“In this war no railroad is more strategically located than our own. At the same time none has more difficult physical operating problems involving for the most part single-track operation over wide reaches of mountains and desert territory. To meet this responsibility and these problems we have equipment and methods that have been greatly improved during the last dozen years as to constitute a new era in railroading. Also we have the will. The job is being tackled by all hands in the traditional spirit that built our western link of America’s first transcontinental railroad, in the spirit that has since won through in every crisis of flood, storm and disaster. I know the men and women of our railroad. They have what it takes. Out on the line, in the yards, in the shops and offices, day and night, they are doing and will continue to do the greatest job in our history.”

When war came suddenly to the United States with the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Southern Pacific was already prepared for the big job. Despite the lean depression years the road had managed, by borrowing large sums, to maintain adequately its track, structures and equipment, and in addition had made notable advancement both in its efficiency of operation and in the character of its service.

It was this period which witness establishment of the company’s spectacular “Daylight” streamliners and the expansion of its fast merchandise freight service. It was a period in which, with efficiency and economy as watchwords, the program of accelerating freight movement was stepped up by the laying of heavier rails carrying more powerful locomotives, hauling longer trains made up of cars of greater capacity and running on faster schedules. From 1932 to 1941 Southern Pacific had spent $146,000,000 for additions and betterments to its equipment and physical properties.

From August, 1939, to the time of U.S. entry into the war the road had already received or was awaiting delivery of 110 steam locomotives and 72 diesel-electric switch engines. Also received or to be delivered were 9489 new freight cars and 79 new passenger cars. The Pacific Fruit Express Company in which the S.P. owns a half-interest had in the same period ordered 1035 new refrigerator cars.

In the past few years Southern Pacific has added materially to its fleet of cab-in-front oil burners, technically known as single-expansion, articulated locomotives of the 4-8-8-2 wheel arrangement, bought from the Baldwin Locomotive Works. Other recently purchased locomotives are of the single-expansion, articulated type, but coal-burners with cab in the conventional position back of the boiler. They were built by the Lima Locomotive works. Coal is used for fuel on the Rio Grande Division between El Paso and Tucumcari.

Battery of S.P. Cab-in-Front locomotives faces turntable

The "BLF&E" stands for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Fireman and Enginemen, and is one of the many fraternal railroading organizations I have come across. I now have 10 of their regular monthly magazines to digest and selectively share with y'all. There will be one more part on the SP.

[:I] A engineering student was walking along and one of his engineering buddy rode up on a nice new bicycle.
"Wow, Where'd you get that," he asked.
"It was amazing! I was walking through the park and a beautiful blonde on a bicycle rode up, jumped off her bike, threw off all of her clothes, opened her arms and exclaimed, 'take whatever you want.'"
"Good choice" came the reply, "The clothes probably would not have fit!" [:I]

Edit

trolleyboy

Member since
May 2014
3,727 posts

Posted by trolleyboy on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:01 PM

Hi Tom and the gang.

Leon can you be sokind as to bring up a round of everyone's favourite for me please.

Tom I enjoyed your reminising about your Lionel trains of yore. I can still remember the Eaton's and Sear's window displays of Lionel layouts each xmas,with the smoke and the sound just really neeat stuff.I'll await the rest of the French raailway story as it unfolds as well,always interesting to see and hear about the continenets rail systems.

Lars Wow un @#%$ beleavable, I hope that once this fiasco is done that you guys can find a new insurer,I'm not sure that I'd want to deal with this comedy of errors that has been dumped in your lap. My luck it is the same company that I'm insured with.As Tom said, once the works done it can only go up from here.

BK Thanks for the round. It's good to hear that you have settled into your retirement. You are right of coarse, way to much fluff out there on the rest of the forum's, I find myself more and more just stayiing here and dealing with the people I know the best,no real reason to venture to far out of our place. You may find yourself even busier in retirement , my Dad swears that he's busier now than when he was walking the beat for 30+ years.I think that you will enjoy that book as well,neat to read about what was, and see all those old ads once again. BTW I concider you to be part of the creame around here as well, your sage advice and commentayr are always welcome here in my opinion,should such opinion matter.

Dave Intersting info on the trainmasters,they were a favourite of mine, not abundant up here but the CPR certainly wrung every last horse and minute out of theirs. Always amazed me that SP used theirs for son long in commuter service. Coarse CPR did as well, they had the only five built with the twin steam generators in the short hood for passenger car heating. Ugly buggers the short hood was the full width of the body ( no walkway on either side iof the cab) Eventually they were rebuilt with conventional cabs once they were pulled from the passenger pool.

Pete I've occationally run into the same problems, once I purge though it does usually go away.I'm certain that for the most part there was two rasons most locomotive manufacturers that had transition difficulties failed.#1 and most important, diesel loco's were able to replace steam locomotives with less engines for more train. Rasilways didn't need as many so the market and therfore the margines were tighter,smaller older companies tended not to be cometitive enough to survive. The wartime building acts didn't help them either though. Secondly I think pride got in the way occationlly. In Baldwins case they went too late to the diesel market, I guess they figured that dioesels wer just a phase or fad, when they realized they weren't the market was already crowded with the larger more competitive manufacturers. This is of coarse an over simplification aas there are many other reasons out there. I'm sure others will pick up on them.

Doug great story on the SP,definatly worth the wait. I always liked the cab forwards, not sure why but I just did,They just seemed to ooze power and purpose.

Well folks the bed beckens. see you all tomorrow.

Rob

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:22 AM

(photo courtesy: www.trainweb.org)

We open at 6 AM.(all times zones!) (Don’t ask how we do that!)[swg]

THURSDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of POSTS

G’day! Start the day right here with a hot cuppa freshly brewed “Joe,” a little something from The Mentor Village Bakery pastry case topped off with an order from our Menu Board for a <light> or <traditional> breakfast. Sounds good, eh[?][tup]

NAME THE two CASH REGISTERS!

. . . . from Pete “Tilla the Hun”
. . . . from Russell “Pink Floyd”
. . . . from Doug “Johnny Cash”
. . . . from CM3 “Tom’s Totaler” & “The Vulture’s Vault”
. . . . from BK “Justin Cash” & “Winsome Cash”
. . . . from Rob “The Cashinator”
Selections to be made on Friday!

Daily Wisdom

After a night at the Opera with his wife, he was asked if he enjoyed it. He replied, “I really liked it. Even the music was good.”
(yogi-ism)

Info for the Day:

Railways of Europe #2 – TGV of France arrives on Today in 3 parts – watch for it!

Railroads from Yesteryear: Northern Pacific (NP) arrives next Tuesday! This will be the THEME for the DAY!

* Weekly Calendar:

Today: Fish ‘n Chips Nite!
Friday: Pizza Nite! & Steak ‘n Fries Nite!
Saturday: Steak ‘n Trimmin’s Nite! – and – ENCORE! Saturday

SUMMARY

Name …..…………… Date/Time …..…..………. (Page#) .. Remarks

(1) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 01:28:20 (254) Classic Index, ver. 3

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 05:32:03 (254) Wednesday’s Info & Summary

(3) passengerfan Al Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 06:57:30 (254) Streamliner #66 – SP (still!)

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 07:57:56 (254) Railways of Europe – Ad

(5) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 09:50:57 (254) Pike Perspectives, etc.

(6) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 10:08:51 (254) Inclusive Post! & Pike Perspectives

(7) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 10:38:52 (254) Classic Diesels #2

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 11:06:50 (254) Acknowledgments & Pike Perspectives

(9) siberianmo Tom Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 12:40:34 (254) NOSTALGIA #69 – Railways of France (1933)

(10) BudKarr BK Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 14:00:26 (254) The Bud Report!

(11) pwolfe Pete Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 14:29:22 (255) Inclusive Post, etc.

(12) LoveDomes Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 14:37:23 (255) The Lars Report!

(13) West Coast S Dave Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 18:06:24 (255) Acknowledgments – SP Trainmasters, etc.

(14) siberianmo Tom Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 18:51:42 (255) Acknowledgments, etc.

(15) pwolfe Pete Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 22:12:39 (255) Inclusive Post!, etc.

(16) barndad Doug Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 22:19:59 (255) Inclusive Post, SP, & joke!

(17) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 22 Feb 2006, 23:01:00 (255) Inclusive Post, etc.

NOW SHOWING:

The Mentor Village Emporium Theatre
. . . . . Double Features, all of the time . . . . .

. . . Sunday, February 19th thru 25th: Fahrenheit 451 (1966) starring: Oskar Werner, Julie Christie & Cyril Cusack – and – Northwest Frontier (1959) starring: Kenneth More, Lauren Bacall & Herbert Lom.

That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:27 AM

RAILWAYS of EUROPE #3 – TGV (France)

“SNCF, gives the train ideas in advance”

TGV

PART I of III

This article is about the French high-speed railway system.

TGV trains depart from Gare Montparnasse in Paris to western and southwestern destinations. (Wikimedia Commons)

The TGV (train à grande vitesse, French for "high-speed train") is France's high-speed rail service, developed by GEC-Alsthom (now Alstom) and SNCF, the French national rail operator, and operated primarily by SNCF. Following the inaugural TGV service between Paris and Lyon in 1981, the TGV network, centred on Paris, has expanded to connect cities across France.

The success of the first line led to a rapid expansion of the service, with new lines built to the south, west and northeast of the country. Eager to share in the success of the French network, neighbouring countries such as Belgium, Italy and Switzerland built their own high-speed lines to connect with it. TGVs under other brand names also link to Germany and the Netherlands through the Thalys network, and to the United Kingdom through Eurostar. Several future lines are currently planned, including extensions within France and to surrounding countries. Towns such as Tours have become a part of this "TGV commuter belt".

TGVs travel at up to 320 km/h (200 mph), which is made possible through the use of specially designed tracks, laid down without any sharp curves, and a range of features which make TGV trains suitable for high speed travel. These features include high-powered electric motors, low axle weight, articulated carriages and in-cab signaling which removes the need for drivers to see lineside signals at high speed.

TGVs are manufactured primarily by Alstom, now often with the involvement of Bombardier. Except for a small series of TGVs used for postal freight between Paris and Lyon, TGV is primarily a passenger service. Trains derived from TGV designs also operate in South Korea (KTX) and Spain (AVE).

Travel by TGV has largely replaced air travel between connected cities, due to shorter commuting times (especially for trips taking less than three hours), reduced check-in, security and boarding formalities, and the convenient location of train stations in the heart of cities. Furthermore, the TGV is a very safe mode of transport, with no recorded fatalities due to accidents while running at high speed since operations began.

History

Main article: Development of the TGV

The idea of the TGV was first proposed in the 1960s, after Japan began construction on the Shinkansen in 1959. At the time the French government favoured new technologies, exploring the production of hovercraft and maglev trains such as Aérotrain. Simultaneously, SNCF began researching high-speed trains that would operate on conventional tracks.

It was originally planned that the TGV, then standing for très grande vitesse (very high speed) or turbine grande vitesse (high speed turbine), would be propelled by gas turbine-electric locomotives. Gas turbines were selected for their small size, good power-to-weight ratio, and ability to deliver a high power output over an extended period of time. The first prototype, TGV 001, was the only TGV constructed with this type of engine. However, following the sharp increase in the price of oil during the 1973 energy crisis, gas turbines were deemed impractical and the project turned to locomotives powered by electricity from overhead lines. The electricity was to be generated by France's new nuclear power stations.

However, TGV 001 was not a wasted prototype. Its gas-turbine powerplant was only one of many technologies required for high-speed rail travel. The TGV 001 platform also tested high-speed brakes, which were needed to dissipate the large amount of kinetic energy amassed by a train operating at high speed. Other technologies tested by the 001 included high-speed aerodynamics and signaling. The train was articulated, meaning that its two carriages shared a bogie between them which allowed them to move freely with respect to one another. The prototype train reached 318 km/h (198 mph), which remains the world speed record for a non-electric train. The interior and exterior of TGV 001 were styled by British-born designer Jack Cooper, whose work formed the basis of all subsequent TGV design, including the distinctive nose shape of TGV power cars.

Changing the specification of the TGV to incorporate electric traction required a significant design overhaul. The first fully electric prototype, nicknamed Zébulon, was completed in 1974, testing features such as innovative body-mounting of motors, pantographs, suspension and braking. Body mounting of motors allowed over 3 tonnes (2.95 tons) to be dropped from the weight of the power cars. The prototype travelled almost 1 000 000 km (621,000 miles) during testing.

In 1976 the French government fully funded the TGV project, and construction of the LGV Sud-Est, the first high-speed line (ligne à grande vitesse), began shortly afterwards. The line was given the designation LN1, Ligne Nouvelle 1 (New Line 1).

A TGV train at Futuroscope, near Poitiers. (Wikimedia Commons)

After two pre-production trainsets had been rigorously tested and substantially modified, the first production version was delivered on 25 April 1980. The TGV service opened to the public between Paris and Lyon on 27 September 1981. The initial target customers were businesspeople travelling between those two cities; as a mode of transport, the TGV was considerably faster than normal trains, cars, or airplanes. The trains soon became popular outside their initial target market; the public welcomed a fast and practical way to travel between cities.

Since then, further LGVs have opened in France, including the LGV Atlantique (LN2) to Tours/Le Mans (construction began 1985, operation began 1989); the LGV Nord-Europe (LN3) to Calais and the Belgian border (construction began 1989, operation began 1993); the LGV Rhône-Alpes (LN4), extending the LGV Sud-Est to Valence (construction began 1990, operation began 1992); and the LGV Méditerranée (LN5) to Marseille (construction began 1996, operations began 2001). A line from Paris to Strasbourg, the LGV Est, is under construction. High-speed lines based on TGV technology have also been built in Belgium, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom to connect with the French network.

A TGV Duplex train leaving Paris Gare de Lyon. (Wikimedia Commons)

The Eurostar Service began operation in 1994, connecting continental Europe to London via the Channel Tunnel. The line used the LGV Nord-Europe in France from the outset. The first phase of the British high-speed line, the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, was completed in 2003. The project, built with SNCF engineering expertise, is due for completion in 2007, by which time London-Brussels will take only 2 hours and London-Paris only 2h15.

The TGV was not the world's first commercial high-speed service; the Japanese Shinkansen first connected Tokyo and Osaka on 1 October 1964, nearly 17 years before the first TGVs. The TGV does, however, hold the world speed record for conventional trains (Japan holds it for maglev trains); in 1990 it reached speeds of 515.3 km/h (320.2 mph) under test conditions with a shortened train (two power cars and three passenger cars). It remains the world's fastest conventional scheduled train as of 2005. More recently, a typical journey's average start-to-stop speed was 263.3 km/h.

On 28 November 2003 the TGV carried its one-billionth passenger since the inception of the service in 1981, second in the world only to Shinkansen of Japan's 5 billion passengers reached in 2000. The two-billion mark is expected to be reached in 2010.

Tracks

The TGV runs on dedicated tracks known as LGV (ligne à grande vitesse, "high-speed line"), allowing speeds of up to 320 km/h (200 mph) in normal operation on the newest lines. Originally, LGV was defined as a line permitting speeds greater than 200 km/h (125 mph); this guideline was subsequently revised to permit speeds up to 250 km/h (155 mph). TGV trains can also run on conventional track (lignes classiques), albeit at the normal maximum safe speed for those lines, up to a maximum of 220 km/h (137 mph). This is an advantage that the TGV has over, for example, magnetic levitation trains, as it means that TGVs can serve far more destinations and can use city-centre stations (for example in Paris, Lyon, and Dijon). They now serve around 200 destinations in France and abroad.

LGV construction is similar to normal railway lines, with a few key differences. The radii of curves are larger so that trains can travel at higher speeds around them without increasing the centrifugal force felt by passengers. The radius of LGV curves has historically been greater than 4 km (2.5 miles); new lines have minimum radii of 7 km (4 mi) to allow for future increases in speed.

If used only for high-speed traffic, lines can incorporate steeper grades. This facilitates the planning of LGV routes and reduces the cost of line construction. The considerable momentum of TGV trains at high speed means that they can climb steep slopes without greatly increasing their energy consumption. They can also coast on downward slopes, further increasing efficiency. The Paris-Sud-Est LGV features line grades of up to 3.5%, while on the German high-speed line between Cologne and Frankfurt they reach 4%.

Track alignment is more precise than on normal railway lines, and ballast is placed in a deeper than normal profile, resulting in increased load-bearing capacity and track stability. LGV track is anchored by more railway sleepers per kilometre than is usual in track construction, and all are made of concrete (either mono- or bi-blocs, the latter being when the sleeper consists of two separate blocks of concrete joined by a steel bar). Heavy rail (UIC 60) is used, and the rails themselves are more upright (1/40 as opposed to 1/20 on normal lines). Use of continuous welded rails in place of shorter, jointed rails means that the ride is comfortable at high speeds, without the usual "clickety-clack" vibrations induced by rail joints.

Track must be at least standard gauge, 1,435 mm (4 ft 8½in), or wide gauge to allow speeds greater than 200 km/h (125 mph). Japanese and Taiwanese LGV networks are therefore isolated from the narrow gauge networks used for traditional rail in the two countries. On the Iberian Peninsula, however, which uses wide gauge track on normal lines, standard gauge is used on LGVs so that they remain compatible with rail networks across the rest of Europe. If tunnels are required, their diameter must be greater than that required by the gauge of the trains travelling through them, especially at the entrances. This is to limit the effects of air pressure changes, which can be more problematic at the speeds reached by TGV trains.

LGVs have a minimum speed limit. In other words, trains which are not capable of high speed generally may not use LGVs, which are primarily reserved for passenger trains. One reason for this limitation is that capacity is sharply reduced when trains of differing speeds are mixed. Passing freight and passenger trains also constitute a safety risk, as cargo on freight cars can be destabilized by the turbulent air that accompanies a high-speed TGV. Slower traffic is generally unable to use LGV track even during the midnight hours when no TGVs are running, because maintenance is performed on line infrastructure during these hours.

The steep gradients common on TGV lines limit the weight of slow freight trains. Slower trains also mean that the maximum track cant (banking on curves) is limited, so for the same maximum speed a mixed-traffic LGV would need to be built with curves of even higher radius. Such track would be much more expensive and difficult to build and maintain. Because of expense, engineering difficulty and safety concerns, mixed-traffic LGV routes remain uncommon. However, certain stretches of less-used track are routinely mixed-traffic today, such as the Tours branch of the LGV Atlantique, and the planned Nîmes/Montpellier branch of the LGV Mediterranée.

LGVs are all electrified. In addition to the constraints involved in refuelling and carrying fuel on board trains, diesel traction cannot produce the continuous thrust required for high-speed operation. All LGVs connected directly to the French network are electrified at high voltage AC: 15 kV, 16 2/3 Hz in Germany and 25 kV, 50/60 Hz everywhere else. The original Italian line between Rome and Florence, currently electrified at 3 kV DC, is to be converted to 25 kV 50 Hz AC to faciliate direct trains from France once new high-speed lines link it with the French network at Lyon via Turin.

Catenary wires are kept at a higher tension than normal lines. This is because the pantograph causes oscillations in the wires, and the wave must travel faster than the train to avoid producing standing waves which would cause the wires to break. This was a problem when rail speed record attempts were made in 1990; power wire tension had to be increased further still to accommodate train speeds of over 500 km/h (310 mph). While trains are on LGVs, only the rear pantograph is raised, avoiding amplification of the oscillations created by the front pantograph. The front power car is supplied by a cable running along the roof of the train. Eurostar trains are, however, long enough that oscillations are damped sufficiently between the front and rear power cars that both pantographs can be safely raised. On lignes classiques (older, normal-speed rail lines) slower maximum speeds prevent oscillation problems, and both DC pantographs are raised.

LGVs are fenced along their entire length to prevent animals and people from wandering onto the track. Level crossings are not permitted and bridges over the line are equipped with sensors to detect objects that fall onto the track.

All LGV junctions are grade-separated, i.e. the tracks are designed so that tracks crossing each other always use flyovers or tunnels in order to avoid the need to cross in front of trains travelling in the opposite direction. Crossing over in front of other trains would require that service be halted in the opposite direction for extended periods of time, thus greatly reducing capacity.

Signaling

Main article: LGV signaling

Because TGV trains travel too fast for their operators to see and react to traditional lineside signals, an automated system called TVM (Transmission Voie-Machine, or track to train transmission) is used for signaling on LGVs. Information is transmitted to trains via electrical pulses sent through the rails, providing speed, target speed, and stop/go indications directly to the operator via dashboard-mounted instruments. This high degree of automation does not remove the train from driver control, though there are safeguards that can safely bring the train to a stop in the event of driver error.

The boundaries of signaling block sections are marked by distinctive boards.

The line is divided into signal blocks of about 1500 m (1 mile), the boundaries of which are marked by blue boards printed with a yellow triangle. Dashboard instruments show the maximum permitted speed for a train's current block, as well as a target speed based on the profile of the line ahead. The maximum permitted speed is based on factors such as the proximity of trains ahead (with steadily decreasing maximum permitted speeds in blocks closer to the rear of the next train), junction placement, speed restrictions, the top speed of the train and distance from the end of LGV track. As trains cannot usually stop within one signal block (which ranges from a few hundred metres to a few kilometres), drivers are alerted to slow down gradually several blocks before a required stop.

Two versions of TVM signaling, TVM-430 and TVM-300, are in use on the LGV. TVM-430, a newer system, was first installed on the LGV Nord to the Channel Tunnel and Belgium, and supplies trains with more information than TVM-300. Among other benefits, TVM-430 allows a train's on-board computer system to generate a continuous speed control curve in the event of an emergency brake activation, effectively forcing the driver to reduce speed safely without releasing the brake.

The signaling system is permissive; the driver of a train is permitted to proceed into an occupied block section without first obtaining authorization. Speed in this situation is limited to 30 km/h (19 mph; proceed with caution) and if speed exceeds 35 km/h (22 mph), the emergency brake is applied and the train stops. If the board marking the entrance to the block section is accompanied by a sign marked NF, the block section is not permissive, and the driver must obtain authorization from the Poste d'Aiguillage et de Régulation (Signaling and Control Centre) before entering. Once a route is set, or the PAR has provided authorization, a white lamp above the board is lit to inform the driver. The driver then acknowledges the authorization using a button on the train's control panel. This disables the emergency braking which would otherwise occur when passing over the ground loop adjacent to the non-permissive board.

When trains enter or leave LGVs from lignes classiques, they pass over a ground loop which automatically switches the driver's dashboard indicators to the appropriate signaling system. For example, a train leaving the LGV onto a French ligne classique would have its TVM signaling system deactivated and its traditional KVB (Contrôle Vitesse par Balise, or beacon speed control) system enabled.

End of Part I of III

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Enjoy!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

Waving flags credit to: www.3DFlags.com

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

passengerfan

Member since
March 2004
From: Central Valley California
2,841 posts

Posted by passengerfan on Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:55 AM

Good Morning Tom and the rest of the gang. Time for a coffee and a crumpet from the Mentor Village Bakery.

PASSENGERFAN AL'S STREAMLINER CORNER #66

CITY OF DENVER C&NW – UP Trains 110-111 January 10, 1954 Chicago – Denver daily overnight each direction 1048 miles 16 hours 30 minutes
by Al

CONSIST ONE
5026A (C&NW) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Chicago – Omaha)

5026B(C&NW) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Chicago – Omaha)

926 (UP) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Omaha – Denver)

928 (UP) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Omaha – Denver)

8900 (C&NW) Baggage Car

5200 “Pub” Bar 28- Seat Lounge 20- Revenue Seat Coach

3480 (C&NW) 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

3479 (C&NW) 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

5105 21-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car
5105 54- Seat Dining Room Car

DREAM LAKE 4-Compartment 1-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

BOULDER 12-Section Sleeping Car

PACIFIC ISLAND 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

PACIFIC MEADOW 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1501 Buffet 46- Seat Lounge Car

CONSIST TWO

942 (UP) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Denver – Omaha)

941 (UP) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Denver – Omaha)

5026B (C&NW) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Omaha – Chicago)

5026A (C&NW) EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (Omaha – Chicago)

8901 (C&NW) Baggage Car

5202 “Pub” Bar 28-Seat lounge 20- Revenue Seat Coach

3482 (C&NW) 44-Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

3481 (C&NW) 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

5106 21-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car
5106 54- Seat Dining Room Car

BEAR LAKE 4-Compartment 1-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

GREELEY 12-Section Sleeping Car

PACIFIC SKIES 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

PACIFIC FORUM 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1500 Buffet 46- Seat Lounge Car

The new Pubs were so popular that the UP rebuilt two coaches into full Pub cars to replace the original Pub coach cars 5200 and 5202, these new cars were 1502 and 1503. The interiors of these cars were Bar and 47 seat Pub Lounge. They were completed and assigned to the CITY OF DENVER consists in July 1954.

In order to compete with the new VISTA-DOME DENVER ZEPHYRS of October 1956 featuring the new Slumbercoach the UP leased a pair of 21-Roomette sleeping cars from the Pennsylvania Railroad for six months from October 1956 to April 1957 and after repainting the cars streamliner colors offered them at coach fare plus a room charge. With space in the cars for only 21 passengers compared to a Slumbercoaches 40-passengers it is doubtful if they made any money in the six months they were leased by the UP.
The two cars retained their PRR names while leased to the UP as follows:
BEDFORD INN
COATESVILLE INN

At the end of October 1955 the Milwaukee Road took over from the C&NW as the Chicago – Omaha operator of the CITY fleet and other UP streamliners.
The C&NW cars assigned to the CITY OF DENVER trains were returned to that Railroad and the UP assigned cars of their own as replacements until the Milwaukee Road was able to make cars available. Beginning in June 1956.

In January 1958 the Milwaukee Road assigned two SUPER DOMES to the CITY OF DENVER one per consist.
The domes lasted for one year until January 1959 when the CITY OF DENVER and CITY OF PORTLAND were combined between Chicago and Denver. Since the CITY OF PORTLAND operated with three domes (Coach, Diner, Lounge) the SUPER DOMES were no longer necessary.

In 1968 the CITY OF DENVER was rerouted back on the mainline and the CITY OF DENVER cars were operated as separate trains between North Platte and Denver.
The CITY OF LOS ANGELES was combined with the CITY OF PORTLAND in 1969 east of Green River, Wyoming and the CITY OF DENVER east of North Platte.

The CITY OF DENVER was dropped with the coming of AMTRAK in 1971.

TTFN AL

Anonymous

Member since
April 2003
305,205 posts

Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:17 AM

And a very good morning to one and all. I know, its ben awhile and no one misses the interaction more than me humble self. There has been so much "good stuff" since Sunday Photo Posting day; I don't where to start with the accolades. Tom, let me begin with a tall Tomato Juice and a couple of Hot Cross Buns...Ruthy's will do nicely.[^] Seriously, thanks again Tom for posting the pix for those of us who are P.C./Net challanged.[:I] Good to see BK and Lars back into the Fold and of course all of the steady contributors, "Members of the Stools" and guests.[tup] Its true, this new wrinkle I'm into is very demanding, however, personal lethargy isn't an option I'm comfortable with.[V] 'Til some extra "horses" pitch in, I'll just have to "wing it" for the present.

Congratulations BK on getting settled in. Your choice of locations couldn't be better. Lars, owning a home is such a hassle and finding reliable contractors for maintenance, etc. can stretch your patients to the limit. Best wishes for coping with this tedious challenge. Barndad Doug, where on earth do you find the esoteric choices offered on your posts?[tup] They certainly are compelling and appreciated. Pete old Topper, thanks again for the excellent pics on British Rail Museum pieces. Say Rob, did you get as much from the "Juice Jargon" that Doug sent as I did?[tup] As always your input is superb. I can't wait to see those Brantford beauties "live and in living colo(u)r" come May.[^] BTW, great decision on the move from the basement to the attic. Hope everything is copasetic on the domestic side.[:O] French TGVs, ah yes, I'm sure we all agree that this is another case where they "got it right" the first time. As to a labrynth of other choices made; I would rather not go there. Hey, I wanna do more but duty calls. What is that odor? Oh Boris, did you miss me? PHWATT!...The same to you fella!!![:(!] Happy rails everyone, until next time.

Edit

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:21 AM

RAILWAYS of EUROPE #3 – TGV (France)

“SNCF, gives the train ideas in advance”

TGV

PART II of III

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

Stations

Avignon TGV station. (GNU Free Documentation)

One of the main advantages of TGV over other fast rail techologies such as magnetic levitation is that TGV trains can take advantage of existing infrastructure. This makes connecting city centres (such as Paris-Gare de Lyon to Lyon-Perrache) with TGV a simple and inexpensive proposition; TGVs often use intra-city tracks and stations originally built with lower-speed trains in mind.

However, TGV route designers have tended to build new stations in suburban areas or in the open countryside several kilometers away from cities. This allows TGVs to stop without incurring too great a time penalty, since more time is spent on high-speed track. In some cases, stations are built halfway between two communities. The station serving Montceau-les-Mines and Le Creusot is an example of this approach. Another, more controversial example is the Haute Picardie station, which is located between Amiens and Saint-Quentin. The location of the Haute Picardie station was rather controversial; the press and local authorities criticized it as too far from either town to be convenient, and too far from connecting railway lines to be useful for travellers. The station was nicknamed la gare des betteraves, or 'beetroot station', as it is surrounded by beet fields. This nickname is now applied to similar stations located away from town and city centres, whether such stations are in the vicinity of beet fields or not.

A number of major new railway stations have been built to support the TGV service, some of which are considered major architectural achievements in their own right. The Avignon TGV station, opened in 2001, has been praised as one of the most remarkable stations on the network, with a spectacular 340 m (1,115 ft)-long glazed roof which has been compared to that of a cathedral.

Rolling stock

A TGV train in Rennes, in Brittany. (Wikimedia Commons)

Eurostar and Thalys side-by-side in Paris Gare du Nord. (Wikimedia Commons)

TGV rolling stock differs from other types in that trains consist of semi-permanently coupled multiple units. Bogies are located between carriages, supporting the carriages on either side, so that each carriage shares its bogies with the two adjacent to it. Locomotives at either end of the trains have their own bogies.
This design is advantageous during a derailment, as the locomotive derails first and can move separately from the passenger carriages, which are more likely to stay upright and in line with the track. Normal trains, by contrast, tend to split at couplings and jackknife.

A disadvantage of this carriage design is that it is difficult to split sets of carriages. While TGV locomotives can be removed from trains via standard uncoupling procedures, specialized depot equipment is needed to split carriages by lifting the entire train at once. Once uncoupled, one of the carriage ends is left without a bogie at the split, so a bogie frame is required to hold it up.

SNCF operates a fleet of about 400 TGV trainsets. Six types of TGV or TGV derivative currently operate on the French network; these are TGV Sud-Est (passenger and La Poste varieties), TGV Atlantique, TGV Réseau/Thalys PBA, Eurostar, TGV Duplex and Thalys PBKA. A seventh type, TGV POS (Paris-Ostfrankreich-Suddeutschland, or Paris-Eastern France-Southern Germany), is currently being tested.

All TGVs are at least bi-current, which means that they can operate at 25 kV, 50 Hz AC on newer lines (including LGVs) and at 1.5 kV DC on older lines (such 1.5 kV lignes classiques that are particularly common around Paris). Trains crossing the border into Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom must accommodate foreign voltages. This has led to the construction of tri-current or even quadri-current TGVs. All TGVs are equipped with two pairs of pantographs, two for AC use and two for DC use. When passing between areas of different supply voltage, marker boards are installed to remind the driver to lower the pantograph(s), turn off power to the traction motors, adjust a switch on the dashboard to select the appropriate system, and raise the pantograph(s) again. Pantographs and pantograph height control are selected automatically based on the voltage system chosen by the driver. Once the train detects the correct supply to its transformers, a dashboard indicator lights up and the driver can switch on power to the traction motors. The train coasts across the border between voltage sections with traction motor power turned off.

Main article: SNCF TGV Sud-Est

A TGV Sud-Est set in the original orange livery, since superseded by silver and blue. (Wikimedia Commons)

The Sud-Est fleet was built between 1978 and 1988 and operated the first TGV service from Paris to Lyon in 1981. Currently there are 107 passenger sets operating, of which nine are tri-current (including 15 kV, 16 2/3 Hz AC for use in Switzerland) and the rest bi-current. There are also seven bi-current half-sets without seats which carry mail for La Poste between Paris and Lyon. These are painted in a distinct yellow livery.

Each set is made up of two power cars and eight carriages (capacity 345 seats), including a powered bogie in each of the carriages adjacent to the power cars. They are 200 m (656 ft) long and 2.81 m (9.2 ft) wide. They weigh 385 tonnes (424 short tons; 379 long tons) with a power output of 6,450 kW under 25 kV.

Originally the sets were built to run at 270 km/h (168 mph) but most were upgraded to 300 km/h (186 mph) during their mid-life refurbishment in preparation for the opening of the LGV Méditerranée. The few sets which still have a maximum speed of 270 km/h operate on routes which have a comparatively short distance on the lignes à grande vitesse, such as those to Switzerland via Dijon. SNCF did not consider it financially worthwhile to upgrade their speed for a marginal reduction in journey time.

TGV Atlantique

A TGV Atlantique on an enhanced ordinary track. (Wikimedia Commons)

Main article: SNCF TGV Atlantique

The Atlantique fleet was built between 1988 and 1992. 105 bi-current sets were built for the opening of the LGV Atlantique and entry into service began in 1989. They are 237.5 m (780 ft) long and 2.9 m (9.5 ft) wide. They weigh 444 tonnes (489 tons), and are made up of two power cars and ten carriages with a capacity of 485 seats. They were built from the outset with a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph) with 8,800 kW total power under 25 kV.

A modified model 325 set the world speed record in 1990 on the new LGV before its opening. Various modifications, such as improved aerodynamics, larger wheels and improved braking were made to enable test run speeds of over 500 km/h (310 mph). The set was also reduced to two power cars and three carriages to improve the power-to-weight ratio, weighing 250 tonnes (275 tons). Three carriages, including the bar carriage in the centre, is the minimum possible configuration because of the way the sets are articulated.

TGV Réseau

A Réseau-class 2nd-generation TGV train at Marseille St-Charles station. (GNU Free Documentation)

Main article: SNCF TGV Réseau

The first Réseau ("Network") sets entered service in 1993. 50 bi-current sets were ordered initially in 1990, supplemented by an order for 40 tri-current sets in 1992/1993. Ten of the tri-current sets carry the Thalys livery and are known as Thalys PBA (Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam) sets. The tri-current sets, as well as the standard French voltages, can operate under the Low Countries' and Italian 3kV DC supplies.

They are formed of two power cars (8,800 kW under 25 kV - as TGV Atlantique) and eight carriages, giving a capacity of 377 seats. They have a top speed of 300 km/h. They are 200 m (656 ft) long and are 2.90 m (9.5 ft) wide. The bi-current sets weigh 383 tonnes (422 tons), but owing to axle-load restrictions in Belgium the tri-current sets have a series of modifications such as the replacement of steel with aluminium and hollow axles to reduce the weight to under 17 tonnes (18.7 tons) per axle.

Owing to early complaints of uncomfortable pressure changes when entering tunnels at high speed on the LGV Atlantique, the Réseau sets are now pressure-sealed.

Eurostar

Main article: British Rail Class 373

Long Eurostar trains connect London with Paris and Brussels through the Channel Tunnel. (Wikimedia Commons)

The Eurostar train is essentially a long TGV, modified for use in the United Kingdom and in the Channel Tunnel. Differences include the smaller cross-section, to fit within the constrictive British loading gauge; British-designed asynchronous traction motors; and extensive fireproofing in case of fire in the tunnel.

In the UK, it is known under the TOPS classification system as a Class 373 Electric Multiple Unit. In the planning stages, it was also known as the TransManche Super Train (Cross-channel Super Train). The trains were built by GEC-Alsthom (now Alstom) at its sites in La Rochelle (France), Belfort (France) and Washwood Heath (England), entering service in 1993.

Two types were built: the Three Capitals sets consist of two power cars and eighteen carriages, including two powered bogies; the North of London sets consist of two power cars and only fourteen carriages, again with two powered bogies. Full sets of both types consist of two identical half-sets which are not articulated in the middle, so that in case of emergency in the Channel Tunnel, one half can be uncoupled and leave the tunnel. Each half-set is numbered separately.

38 full sets, plus one spare power car, were ordered by the railway companies involved: 16 by SNCF, 4 by NMBS/SNCB, and 18 by British Rail, of which seven were North of London sets. Upon privatisation of British Rail by the UK Government, the sets were bought by London & Continental Railways whose subsidiary Eurostar (U.K.) Ltd. is managed by a consortium of companies made up of the National Express Group (40%), SNCF (35%), SNCB (15%) and British Airways (10%).

The Three Capitals sets operate at a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph), with the power cars supplying 12,240 kW of power. They are 394 m (1,293 ft) long and have a capacity of 766 seats, weighing a total of 752 tonnes (829 short tons; 740 long tons). The North of London sets have a capacity of 558 seats. All of the trains are at least tri-current and are able to operate on 25 kV, 50 Hz AC (on LGVs, including the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, and on UK overhead electrified lines), 3 kV DC (on lignes classiques in Belgium) and 750 V DC on the UK Southern Region third rail network. The third rail system will become superfluous in 2007 when the second phase of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link is completed between London and the Channel Tunnel, as it uses 25 kV, 50 Hz AC exclusively. Five of the Three Capitals sets owned by SNCF are quadri-current and are also able to operate on French lignes classiques at 1500 V DC.

Three of the Three Capitals sets owned by SNCF are used for French domestic use and currently carry the silver and blue TGV livery. The North of London Eurostar sets have never seen international use but were originally intended to provide direct services from continental Europe to UK cities north of London, using the West Coast Main Line and the East Coast Main Line. These never came to fruition because budget airlines in the UK offered lower fares. A few of the sets were leased to GNER for use on its White Rose service between London and Leeds, with two of them carrying GNER's dark blue livery. The lease ended in December 2005.

The current Chief Executive of Eurostar, Richard Brown, has suggested that the trains could be replaced by double-decker trains similar to the TGV Duplex when they are withdrawn. A double-deck fleet could carry 40 million passengers per year from England to Continental Europe, equivalent to adding an extra runway at a London airport.

TGV Duplex

The TGV Duplex power cars use a more streamlined nose than previous TGVs. (Wikimedia Commons)

TGV Duplex trains feature bi-level carriages. (Wikimedia Commons)

Main article: SNCF TGV Duplex

The Duplex was built to increase TGV capacity without increasing train length, or number of trains. Each carriage has two levels, with access doors at the lower level taking advantage of low French platforms. A staircase provides access to the upper level, where the gangway between carriages is located. This layout provides a capacity of 512 seats per set. On busy routes such as Paris-Marseille they are operated in pairs, providing 1,024 seats in a single train. Each set also has a wheelchair-accessible compartment.

After a lengthy development process starting in 1988 (during which they were known as the TGV-2N), they were built in two batches: thirty were built between 1995 and 1998, then a further thirty-four between 2000 and 2004. They weigh 386 tonnes (425 short tons; 379 long tons) and are 200 m (656 ft) long, made up of two power cars and eight bi-level carriages. Extensive use of aluminium means that they do not weigh much more than the TGV Réseau sets they supplement. The bi-current power cars provide a total power of 8,800 kW, and they have a slightly increased speed over their predecessors of 320 km/h (199 mph).

Thalys PBKA

A Thalys PBKA power car at Aachen Hauptbahnhof, on the German border with Belgium and the Netherlands. (Wikimedia Commons)

Main article: SNCF TGV Thalys PBKA

Unlike Thalys PBA sets, the PBKA (Paris-Brussels-Köln (Cologne)-Amsterdam) sets were built exclusively for the Thalys service. They are technologically similar to TGV Duplex sets, but do not feature bi-level carriages. All of the trains are quadri-current, operating under 25 kV, 50 Hz AC (LGVs), 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz AC (Germany, Switzerland), 3 kV DC (Belgium) and 1,500 V DC (Low Countries and French lignes classiques). Their top speed in service is 300 km/h (186 mph) under 25 kV, 50 Hz AC, with two power cars supplying 8,800 kW of power. They have eight carriages and are 200 m (656 ft) long, weighing a total of 385 tonnes (424 short tons; 379 long tons). They have a capacity of 377 seats.

17 trains were ordered: nine by SNCB, six by SNCF and two by NS. Deutsche Bahn contributed to financing two of the SNCB sets.

TGV POS

Main article: SNCF TGV POS

POS trains, standing for Paris-Ostfrankreich-Süddeutschland (Paris-Eastern France-Southern Germany) are under test for use on the LGV Est, currently under construction.

The trains will consist of two power cars with eight TGV Réseau type carriages, with a total power output of 9,600 kW and a top speed of 320 km/h (199 mph). Unlike TGV-A, TGV-R and TGV-D, it has adopted asynchronous motors and in case of failure, isolation of an individual motor in a powered bogie is possible. They will weigh 423 tonnes (466 short tons; 416 long tons).

Network

TGV lines (shown in orange and yellow) and connections to the rest of the European high speed rail network

France has around 1 200 km of LGV built over the past 20 years, with four new lines either proposed or under construction.

End of Part II of III

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Enjoy!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

Waving flags credit to: www.3DFlags.com

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

Anonymous

Member since
April 2003
305,205 posts

Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:37 AM

Hi again Tom, couldn't leave without mentioning Part II on the TGV. I wondered how these trains handled the current variations between countries. A visit doesn't go by at "Our" Place that I don't learn something new.[tup] Okay, so long for now.

Edit

coalminer3

Member since
January 2001
From: WV
1,251 posts

Posted by coalminer3 on Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:38 AM

Good Morning Barkeep and All Present; coffee, please; round for the house; I'll save jukebox $ for awhile as we seem to be up to speed here. A few comments and then to something for the day.

BK - Don't get me started - our 'steamed proprietor will send me to the rat's room for extreme therapy. Suffice it to say, I'm dealing with some similar issues at work right now.

I enjoyed the piece on the TMs. There were more than a few around here on the old VGN, so it was nice to read abt. them. Our maritime contingent doubtless knows abt. other F-M applications.

Lars - Holy !@#$. It always worries me when somebody says, "Did you ca***he check yet?" Then they want a second adjuster to look at it - be afraid, be very afraid........hang in there.

Trolleyboy - We spend a fair amt. of time in the Buffalo area. Their NPR outlets are more than good - wish ours were as good, but their PBS affiliate, well.........BTW, WV Public TV ran a segment on Ft. Niagara the other night - one of my favorite places.

SP in WW2. Thanks so much for that post.

As for Renaults - my dad had one - fun car (?) - don't leave home w/o tools and extra belts. It was abt. the coldest thing I ever rode in (that was supposed to be a passenger vehicle).

He traded a Pontiac that was abt. the size of the USS Pennsylvania for it. I believe it was temporary insanity, but the courts were never able to prove it. I still pick at him abt. it every now and then, especially wqhen they get a snow and cold outbreak up home.

Anyway I enjoyed it because I liked to take stuff apart (even at an early age) and get it to run better - there was a lot of OJT with that beast.

Then we got a 1953 VW - different set of things to play with as it was air cooled. Let's just say that car was thermally challenged inside in the winter as well. I know, Boris, we're doing trains here, not vintage vehicles - sorry.

The NYC had some Lima diesels. IIRC, they ran in the Boston area for awhile and were also on some trains on the Harlem line. At any rate, their diesels were nowhere in the same league as their steam products. I always enjoyed checking out the Baldwin plant at Eddystone when we went by on the PRR - interesting buildings including the X-shaped headquarters structure. IIRC, virtually all of the old plant is gone except for that building, but it's been a long time since I rode the NEC in daylight.

I am enjoying the posts on France's high speed service. Always something to learn abt.

Let's add a little more to a previous post. The City of Denver in 1969 had an interesting consist.

It carried a Chicago-Denver sleeper (rttes and bedrooms)
Dome coach: Chicago-North Platte
Reclining seat coaches (leg rests): Chicago-Denver; Omaha-Denver
Cafe Lounge: North Platte-Denver
Diner: Chicago-North Plate
Dome Lounge Car: Chicago-North Plate

In one of the wonderful quirks of time zones, it left North Platte westbound before it arrived as the time changed there from CST to MST. Of course, eastbound it had a "monstrous" layover because the time zone changed the other way.

A footnote on the schedule says, "All tickets honored except banana messengers, caretakers, commutation, drover, circus or show scrip."

work safe

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:21 AM

Good Morning!

A nice flourish last night to close out the evening – good to see you guys return to the bar! Hope you noticed that was Leon behind the bar and not moi![swg] There IS a bit of difference. I don’t wear “jump boots.”<grin>

Let the platitudes roll! Glad that the Posts have pleased the majority of you here at the “Feast or Famine Bar ‘n Grill” – we aim to please, as the saying goes. (Hmmmm, there is THAT sign back in the “Herr’s Room – We aim to please, your aim should be perfect!” – but that’s another story, eh[?])[swg]

Figured it was a ‘puter problem, Pete, so get the Mrs. to take care of it!<grin>

Did you pick up on that Amtrak derailment yesterday between Hermann and Jefferson City[?] Seems the Café Car (the one we travel in for Business Class) had a wheel come off the rails (at least that’s the preliminary guesstimate.) All kinds of agencies are looking into it – UP denies it was their track – what’s new[?] Fortunately the car remained upright and no one was reported to have been injured. Our news said the train was 5 hours delayed and the passengers were taken back to Hermann to board a bus that would take them to their west bound destinations. Oh the woes continue![tdn]

Doug Great piece on the SP and as always, lotsa “stuff’ I didn’ know. Appreciate the effort you put forth in providing these Posts to us all![tup][tup][tup]

The joke[?] Well, let’s put it this way, I’d keep my resume up to date if I were you, for there’s at least 100,000 unemployed comedians these days (daze)![swg]

Always appreciate the inclusive nature of your Posts and look forward to the next![tup]

Rob Your Email has been received and responded to – thanx![tup]

Another fine offering from you last night and it surely covered the bases. Speaking of which, can you believe the “boys of summer” are at spring training[?] I see where “George” has predicted his Yankees will win the World Series! So, we may as well skip it all and get on to the next NHL season, eh[?][swg] Surely THIS NHL season has been a wash – not to mention the total embarrassment suffered by the Canadian and U.S. hockey teams! <good grief!> What does THAT tell you about having professionals in the Olympics!![?][?] Yeah, yeah – I’m off topic – but I’m BOSS! So – awright, awright – ring the blasted ding-dong and give ‘em all the OJ they can handle! That Boris just never let’s me skate . . . [swg]

The downtown department stores in St. Louis aren’t. We still have one that is open for business, but for the life of me I don’t why. Shopping in downtown St. Louis is like trying to book passage on the Titanic – a bit difficult at best. Anyway, last time I heard, they still had a marvelous American Flyer set up in one of their large window areas. This S gauge layout is one of the finest I’ve seen and is put together by the area’s local S gauge club. Problem is, in order to view it, one has to fend off the “street people” who seem to have overtaken and overwhelmed that particular area. Not something I’d go out of my way to do …. Sad how things have changed, in many respects. Anyway, glad the Lionel reference “did something for ya!”[tup]

I see Sir Ted has dropped by. I’m trying to come up with something appropriate to say – but for once, am at a loss for words! How about – ‘tis better to have been a “has been” than a “never was”[?]![?]! Nah, that doesn’t work.[swg] Always good to have you aboard and share in your good cheer. I see Boris is still trying to get back at you for whatever it was he thinks you did to him. Better watch Tex the Armadillo he’s been on the prowl lately, and no ankles are safe ‘round here!<grin>

Glad you caught the first two parts of the TGV – an interesting train fer sure, fer sure! And yes, I concur – they got it right with that effort.[swg]

CM3 Sorry I neglected to thank you for the quarters and round from yesterday! Mea culpa . . . Great informative and inclusive Post from you this fine day![tup]

I know I’ve passed this bit of “wisdom” along somewhere on these pages – but I’ll repeat it. I used to work for a guy who once told the assembled officers in his charge, “Gentlemen, I will presume competence until you demonstrate otherwise.” Now that was a great way of telling us that he wasn’t a micro-manager, and expected things to get done well, in a timely fashion and of course professionally. A decade or so later, I heard myself using the same phrase with my officers. It “worked” for me and apparently did for many others.

It might be time to enlist the services of Fuddman defender of the weak, weaker and absolutely helpless! Then again, nooooooooooot! Maybe Vito the Hit & the Boyz should be dispatched to Staten Island PDQ! Perhaps Lars could use our help!<grin>

Perhaps you can “edumacate” us a bit by deciphering that last portion of your Post – some of those terms may require elaboration. Thanx![tup]

Oh yes - THANX for today's round![tup]

Okay boyz, hope you all take the time to READ the Posts and make appropriate comments to the authors of the efforts put forth for us all! Let’s keep the acknowledgments flowing and maintain the inclusive nature of our cyber watering hole![tup]

Later![tup]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]

Stick around a few minutes AFTER POSTING - The information you MISS may be for YOU!

Those who acknowledge the other guy, get acknowledged!

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

siberianmo

Member since
February 2004
From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
7,214 posts

Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:27 AM

RAILWAYS of EUROPE #3 – TGV (France)

“SNCF, gives the train ideas in advance”

TGV

PART III of III

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

Existing lines

1. LGV Sud-Est (Paris Gare de Lyon to Lyon-Perrache), the first LGV (opened 1981)
2. LGV Atlantique (Paris Gare Montparnasse to Tours and Le Mans) (opened 1990)
3. LGV Rhône-Alpes (Lyon to Valence) (opened 1992)
4. LGV Nord Europe (Paris Gare du Nord to Lille and Brussels and on towards London, Amsterdam and Cologne) (opened 1993)
5. LGV Méditerranée (An extension of LGV Sud-Est: Valence to Marseille Saint-Charles) (opened 2001)
6. LGV Interconnexion (LGV Sud-Est to LGV Nord Europe, east of Paris)

Planned lines

1. LGV Est (Paris Gare de l'Est-Strasbourg) (under construction, to open 2007)
2. LGV Rhin-Rhône (Strasbourg-Lyon)
3. Barcelona-Perpignan-Montpellier, which would connect the TGV to the Spanish AVE network
4. Lyon Turin Ferroviaire (Lyon-Chambéry-Turin), which would connect the TGV to the Italian TAV network
5. LGV Sud-Ouest Tours-Bordeaux and LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire Le Mans-Rennes, extending the LGV Atlantique
6. Bordeaux-Toulouse-Narbonne
7. Bordeaux-Spanish border-Vitoria and Irun
8. Poitiers-Limoges
9. LGV Barreau Picard (Paris - Amiens - Calais), cutting off the corner of the LGV Nord-Europe via Lille.

Amsterdam and Cologne are already served by Thalys TGV trains running on ordinary track, though these connections are being upgraded to high-speed rail. London is presently served by Eurostar TGV trains running at high speeds via the partially-completed Channel Tunnel Rail Link and then at normal speeds along regular tracks through the London suburbs, although Eurostar will use a fully-segregated line once Section 2 of the link is complete in 2007.

TGV technology outside France

TGV technology has been adopted in a number of other countries separately from the French network:

• AVE (Alta Velocidad Española), the high-speed network in Spain
• Korea Train Express (KTX), the high-speed network in South Korea
• Acela Express, a high-speed tilting train built by TGV participant Bombardier for the United States, which uses TGV motor technology (though the rest of the train is unrelated)

Future TGVs

SNCF and Alstom are investigating new technology which could be used for high-speed transport in France.

The development of TGV trains is being pursued in the form of the AGV, standing for automotrice à grande vitesse (high speed self-propelled unit). The design does not include locomotives: engines are instead located under each carriage. Investigations are being carried out with the aim of producing trains at the same cost as existing TGVs, with the same safety standards. An AGV train of the same length as existing TGVs could have a capacity of up to 450 seats. The target speed of the train is 350 km/h (217 mph).

One area being explored is magnetic levitation. This is, however, on hold as the cost of implementing maglev technology is too high. An entirely new network would be required, as maglev trains require track designed specifically for their use, and unless significant demolition or tunnelling took place in city centres, the new system would only be able to reach the outside of towns and cities.

Serious accidents

Main article: TGV accidents

In more than two decades of high-speed operation, the TGV has not recorded a single fatality due to accidents while running at high speed. There have been several accidents, including three high-speed derailments at or above 270 km/h (168 mph), but in none of these did any carriages overturn. This is credited in part to the stiffness that the articulated design lends to the train. There have, however, been fatal accidents involving TGVs on lignes classiques, where the trains are exposed to the same dangers as normal trains, such as level crossings.

On LGVs

• 14 December 1992: TGV 920 from Annecy to Paris, operated by set 56, derailed at 270 km/h (168 mph) on the way through Mâcon-Loché TGV station (Saône-et-Loire). A previous emergency stop had caused a wheel flat; the bogie concerned derailed while crossing the points at the entrance to the station. No-one on the train was injured, but 25 passengers waiting on the platform for another TGV were slightly injured by ballast which was thrown up from the trackbed.
• 21 December 1993: TGV 7150 from Valenciennes to Paris, operated by set 511, derailed at 300 km/h (186 mph) at the site of the current TGV Haute Picardie station (before it was built). Rains had caused a hole to open up under the track; the hole dated from the First World War but had not been detected during construction. The front power car and the front four carriages derailed, but remained aligned with the track. Out of the 200 passengers, one was slightly injured.
• 5 June 2000: Eurostar 9073 from Paris to London, operated by sets 3101/2 owned by NMBS/SNCB, derailed at 250 km/h (155 mph) in the Nord-Pas de Calais region of France near Croisilles. The transmission assembly on the rear bogie of the front power car failed, with parts falling onto the track. Four bogies out of 24 derailed. Out of 501 passengers, seven were bruised and others treated for shock.

On lignes classiques

• 31 December 1983: A bomb allegedly planted by the terrorist organization of Carlos the Jackal exploded on board a TGV from Marseille to Paris; two people were killed.
• 28 September 1988: TGV 736, operated by set 70 "Melun", collided with a lorry carrying an electric transformer weighing 100 tonnes (110 short tons; 98 long tons) which had become stuck on a level crossing in Voiron, Isère. The vehicle had not been permitted to cross by the French Direction départementale de l'équipement. The weight of the lorry caused a very violent collision; two died (the driver and a passenger) and 25 passengers were lightly injured.
• 4 January 1991: after a brake failure, TGV 360 ran away from Châtillon depot. The train was directed onto an unoccupied track and collided with the car loading ramp at Paris-Vaugirard station at 60 km/h (37 mph). No-one was injured. The leading power car and the first two carriages were severely damaged, but were later rebuilt.
• 25 September 1997: TGV 7119 from Paris to Dunkirk, operated by set 502, collided at 130 km/h (81 mph) with a 70 tonne (77 short ton; 69 long ton) asphalt paving machine on a level crossing at Bierne, near Dunkirk. The power car spun round and fell down an embankment; the front two carriages left the track bed and came to a stand in woods beside the track. 7 people were injured.
• 31 October 2001: TGV 8515 from Paris to Irun derailed at 130 km/h (81 mph) near Dax in southwest France. All 10 carriages derailed and the rear power unit fell over onto the track. The cause was a broken rail.
• 30 January 2003: a TGV from Dunkirk to Paris collided at 106 km/h (66 mph) with a heavy goods vehicle stuck on the level crossing at Esquelbecq in northern France. The front power car was severely damaged, but only one bogie derailed. Only the driver was slightly injured.

Following the number of accidents at level crossings, an effort has been made to remove all level crossings on lignes classiques used by TGVs. The ligne classique from Tours to Bordeaux at the end of the LGV Atlantique has no level crossings as a result.

Protests against the TGV

The first environmental protests against the building of a high-speed line in France occurred in May 1990 during the planning stages of the LGV Méditerranée. Protesters blocked a railway viaduct to protest against the planned route of the line, arguing that a new line was unnecessary, and that trains could use existing lines to reach Marseille from Lyon.

Lyon Turin Ferroviaire (Lyon-Chambéry-Turin), which would connect the TGV to the Italian TAV network has been the subject of demonstrations in Italy. While most Italian political parties agree on the construction of this line, inhabitants of the towns where construction would take place are vehemently opposing it. The concerns of the protesters centre around the choice to store dangerous materials mined from mountain, like asbestos and uranium, in open air. This serious health danger could be avoided by using more appropriate and expensive techniques for handling radioactive materials. A six months delay in construction start has been decided to study solutions but a ten years old NIMBY national movement against TAV is trying to exploit inhabitants lawful worries to criticize the development of high-speed rails in Italy on the whole.

General complaints about the noise of TGVs passing near towns and villages have led the SNCF to build acoustic fencing along large sections of LGVs to reduce the disturbance to residents, but protests still take place where SNCF has not addressed the issue.

References

• Soulié, Claude and Tricoire, Jean. Le grand livre du TGV. La Vie du Rail (2002) ISBN 291503401X (in French).
• Cinotti, Éric and Treboul, Jean-Baptiste. Les TGV européens. ISBN 2130505651 (in French).
• Perren, Brian. TGV Handbook. ISBN 1854141953.
• TGV Official Network Map from tgv.co.uk
• Eurostar Official Site - About Eurostar
• TGVweb, an unofficial website with photos and information

End of Part III of III

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Enjoy!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

Did you miss the first two in the series[?] Click on the URLs:

(1) British Rail, page 247
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=247&TOPIC_ID=35270

(2) Eurostar, page 248
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=248&TOPIC_ID=35270

Waving flags credit to: www.3DFlags.com

Happy Railroading!

Siberianmo

Trainnut484

Member since
October 2002
From: Kansas City area
833 posts

Posted by Trainnut484 on Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:56 AM

Good morning/afternoon Tom and all. I'll have a Miller Lite for now. Tom, great job on the TGV stuff. By the sounds of it, freight traffic gets the worst end of the stick on the LGV.

Lars, sorry to hear about your insurance company woes. One of my wife's friends had troubles with her insurance company until she got a lawyer. Now, she's on the better side of the situation.

Al, nice info on the SP, and KUDOS go out to others who pitched in on SP theme day.

Ted and Pete, glad to see you both here. Ted, looks like you and Boris need to make peace. You know Boris, he has friends in high (and low) places [:D][:p]

Rob, sorry to hear you're having more 'puter problems. Maybe you should check into getting a new one.

Gotta go for now. Take care,

Russell

All the Way!

LoveDomes

Member since
January 2006
From: northeast U.S.
1,225 posts

Posted by LoveDomes on Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:37 PM

Hello Tom and whoever else may be looking in!

I think a half hero sandwich will do - the usual, please. A mug of whatever draught is on tap will do fine. Here's a ten spot for the guys ... sure, put it in the Lars Box - no sweat![tup]

So, it’s now approaching 3 PM on the “right coast” and guess what[?] There hasn’t been nary a sound coming from the side of our house where we should be hearing that “rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat” that was mentioned yesterday. Why[?] Well it seems that there is (or was) a hangup regarding just WHO was going to remove the snow from the “work area.” Can you believe any of this[?][?] First of all, there’s not very much left and secondly, does the backhoe really know what it is digging up[?]

After spending a considerable amount of my time with these nincompoops, I was able to finally get through to the head dip s--- that the work needs to get started and started NOW. So, they have scheduled us for the work to begin on Monday! What’s one to do[?] The water isn’t coming in, because it’s not raining, snowing or doing both. If we can hang in there until Monday without a monsoon or something similar, my guess is things will progress as THEY dictate. It’s the most exasperating experience we’ve ever had as homeowners – absolutely maddening. By the way, here’s a definition for the “challenged” out there:

QUOTE: nincompoop

NOUN: One deficient in judgment and good sense: ***, fool, idiot, imbecile, jackass, mooncalf, moron, ninny, nitwit, simple, simpleton, softhead, tomfool. Informal : dope, gander, goose. Slang : cretin, ding-dong, dip, goof, jerk, nerd, schmo, ***, turkey.

Now, on to the insurance company Merry Go ‘Round, part III or IV, whatever! Got a call from the regional manager of the company last night – not during “working hours,” nope last night on MY TIME! Anyway, this JO wanted me to “consider” writing THEM A CHECK for the amount of their check so that they could essentially start the process over. You can imagine my response to THAT NONSENSE. I am absolutely not making any of this up. It is as incredulous as something out of a situation comedy on the tube. The guy then asked if we’d provide them with a VERIFIED receipt for each item purchased with the settlement funds. Answer – nope! The guy was exasperated, I was rather calm, and the conversation ended with we’ll be contacting you again. Translated: enter the lawyers. Fortunately for us, we have someone on retainer over another matter and he’s more than willing to protect our “interests” – as long as we pay him! We’ll only enlist his services should this all turn to the substance I think we’re all thinking of, but cannot say here on the Forums!

Fortunately for us, the check was cashed – the money is in our hands (or in the banks) and there’s not a blankety-blank thing they can do (I hope!) The bank manager assured us that from their perspective, the check cleared (electronically) and all is copasthetic. We breathed a sigh of relief. Next thing you know, the “feds” will be knocking on the door claiming we “passed a check in a fraudulent manner.” If that happens – I’m going back to sea and staying there! The wife can have the house, the car and the cash from the “passed check!”[swg]

Oh yeah, had someone stop by from the gas & electric utilities to let us know that we are “probably running a risk” by operating the furnace and water heater! Duh. Fortunately, that stuff comes tomorrow. What a mess, what a day, what a week, what a month!

One saving grace to all of this “waiting,” is that I’ve been able to scroll through quite a few pages, actually reading most of the information, but absolutely unable and unwilling to expend my
brain and eye power on those rambling and never ending data dumps of one passengerfan Al. Sorry, mate – but there’s just too much too soon too often. Need to break ‘em up before we do!

See, I’m getting back to my normal “loving” self![swg]

Hey Tom nice, nice work with the TGV pieces. The fact that you segmented them into three parts speaks volumes![tup][tup][tup] Further, the pictures are absolute “evidence” of where “they” are and where “we” are in terms of modern rail transportation vehicles and systems. Makes me want to [banghead]!! Through it all, I enjoyed the material and appreciate the time and effort you put into it! A four-[tup] Salute to you, Tom [tup][tup][tup]

Go ahead and send Vito and his guys out here – I can surely find use for their “talents!”[swg]

I’m going to have to curtail this session, as the Mrs. is requesting my presence on the quarter deck! That means I’M IN TROUBLE – but don’t know why (yet)!

Until the next time!

Lars

BudKarr

Member since
September 2005
From: Alberta's Canadian Rockies
331 posts

Posted by BudKarr on Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:59 PM

Good Day Captain Tom and all assembled!

Another report from Paradise where the snow on the mountains is absolutely marvelous, but not at the depths of winters past from what I have been told. The air as brisk as a sea breeze in the northern oceans. Just makes one appreciate being alive, a feeling I have not had in years and years, perhaps never.

The postings continue and the information flow is quite enormous, if one take the time to imbibe, that is. I am down to just a few more pages before my catch up is complete. The idea is to use this resource in a manner whereby it does not overwhelm either of us, that would be a no-no. It does take time to go through the bits and bytes, but there is a reward out there and it is called, “knowledge.” As stated yesterday though, one must be able to discern the substance from the anecdotal or otherwise disingenuous submissions found elsewhere.

Nice work with the French TGV trains! While I do not fully understand the functions required to get this data transferred from one place to another in a discernable format, I do appreciate the effort put forth by you, Captain Tom, to engage in this labor. Thank you! No doubt it would be far easier to post the URL and have us look up whatever it is you feel we would be interested in. But to provide the material directly to us is quite another thing. You have a flare for keeping things moving and I hope the guys all appreciate what it takes to do what you do.

Back to the train, it is indeed quite an engineering marvel and one can only wonder what in blue blazes is WRONG here in North America[?] The rest of the world has passed us by when it comes to rail transportation and our approach to it is to let our infrastructures deteriorate further. At best I see nothing more than treading water which of course will ultimately lead to drowning if one does not head for shallow water and the shoreline! Surely not a happy prospect. Just look at the Via Rail situation. They have yet to come up with anything to replace the Budd cars, now pretty much in exclusive use out in this part of the country for the “Canadian.” They only run these trains three days per week in each direction and some of that equipment is very, very tired. Sorry, Captain Tom, as I know you have an ongoing love affair with those cars, but surely you see the problem too. If the idea is to attract and maintain a tourism crowd then updating to more modern equipment is a must. If the idea is to attract and maintain a viable passenger clientele, then updating to more modern equipment is a must. If the idea is to attract and maintain both – then updating to more modern equipment is a must. I wonder if the people at the “head shed” ever really get this message??? Maybe we can chalk it up to a glitch in the bilingual nature of this wonderful land, those in Montreal pulling the strings may be on an entirely different sheet of music than the rest. Then again, factor in Ottawa and the legislature. Enough!

I need to begin figuring out how to use the various functions available on these Forums – you know, things like [tup] and [swg] and the like. I will get there, just a matter of repetition I would think. [yeah] (See what I mean[?])<grin>

Thank you for the comments directed my way by many of you. I am not really much on the line by line responses – however, they are all appreciated. I noted that a few of my “Bud-isms” may have tweaked one or two in a positive way and for that I am glad. As with Captain Tom, life and the experiences each of us have tend to form our opinions and modus operandi in day to day living. I do not have the market cornered on wisdom, but I surely know a sow’s ear from a silk purse!

Looks as if I just missed Lars as his posting just popped up and then his editing. Now he is gone. From what he has provided, this guy definitely needs a Barrister, big time. That insurance outfit is going to try and nail him to the wall and it more than likely will get uglier than it has and real soon. It appears to me that Lars is on solid ground with this issue. The insurance company screwed it up and my hope is that whenever this gets adjudicated, by whomever does it, that common sense prevails.

Sorry to have to leave so soon, but my “intended” is beckoning and it is time for a trip down the mountain to resupply the food resources. Marketing we will go . . .

BK in beautiful Alberta high country!

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