Well good evening again Leon, another round of Keith's if you would be so kind sir. Well looks like another fine Tuesday theme day is winding down here at the Saloon by The Siding.Great info from da boss and the rest of the barflies throughout this day and evening. So here's my veery humble contribution to the cause. Most of the US stuff was covered quite well by Sir Tom in his posts today, but here's a bit more on the inaugural Pullman's all those many years ago.
THEME FOR THE DAY THEME FOR THE DAY THEME FOR THE DAY
The First Pullman Trains on The Union Pacific
CLASSIC STEAM #36
The First UP Passenger trains west of Missouri sported a locomotive,mail , and baggage car,passenger coach a sleeper and abusiness car.These trains held 110 passengers for the kingly fare of $63.33 per person.Second class or Immigrant class tickets ran at $26.81, but the coaches ofr these fares were just hitched to the back of freight trains and the trip took four to six days instead of the 60 hours for the first calss passenger trains.The trip accross the entire country, from New York to San Fran. took just over a week, and cost $150.00 .By today's standards these trips would be nightmarish ( some argue amtrak still is )but compared to the earlier excursions they were a dream come true and the essence of modern railroading ( at the time ). A year after the historic meeting at Promontory, the cross country fare was reduced to $136.00 for first class and $110.00 for emigrants, who now also got to travel in passsenger trains instead of the back of freights.
Comfort came to UP in the form of Pullman's first Palace Cars. These height of luxury cars were the ornate new plush sleepers which George Pullman and Andrew Carnegie first created in 1867.When Pullman and Carnegie first approached Durant with the idea for sleeper cars the UP's response was a contract requiring that the Pullman cars be kept under UP control. In january of 1868, the Pacific Pullman Company was formed, with UP taking 2600 of it's 5000 shares , Pullman and Carnegie each getting 1200.
These new Pullman cars were an instant hit,which further inspired George Pullman to produce and develope the "Hotel Train" it ran with Dinning Drawing room and Saloon cars which were added to the original sleepers, to create a rolling 5 star hotel.These editions eleiminated the need for meal stops and cut down travel time conciderably. The Hotel train ran only one year, but it's short lifespan and suggested to theb UP what type of deluxe luxurious trains could be produced in the future of rail travel.
The rest is as they say history, Pullman's became satndard fare on most railways in the US. Even TH&B and CP handled through Pullman's from connecting routes through Canada. The TH&B andled throuigh sleepers from Chicago and NY from it's NYC parent. And SOO and CP operated through sleeper service on their joint Winnepegger and Wolverine Runs.
Rob
Good evening Leon, I think that I will take Pete up on that offer of a beer, thank-you sirSo nice to see that the Pullman day is still pulling into the station.
tom-I thought you were going to take it easy on the posting this week <grin>great little rerolls to top out the day for you. Looks to be another theme day success pretty good I would say.
Doug-Good to see you sneak in the back doors this evening.A usual fine post from you.PS freight casr were certainly big business for Pullman, I can't think of too many railways that didn't roster some of their car types.And the beat still goes on today though under the auspices of Trinity Industries. can't go to far in teh railway world without stumbling accross some of their Coalporter's or autorack cars. Oh happy painting BTW, one heck of a way to spend your holiday's. glad that you enjoyed the histroy lesson's classes are dismissed I think for a bit. Actually the bit of a post I put up this morning was part of my essay to try and get into York Universities History program way back when, I was excepted but unfortunatly..... school never happened oh well.
Pete-Good to see you mate, tough I think your swollen face actually scared our resident cyclops he hasn't come back out of his shed yet. Nice photo's and ifo to round out the English Pullman's. I love that Umber and Creame paint job truly classyMy I think the entir Napoleonic era and it's endless warfare did indeed spur on the industrial revolution, wars tend to do that,never worth the cost though
Hi Tom and all.
I'll have a pint that ROB so kindly offered but I will have to have a straw, My chops are hurting after a trip to the dentist, please dont mention the cost as tears and keyboard are not a good combination.
DOUG Thanks for part 2 of the CGW, and I think we can all relate to them computer cartoons It reminded me of a scene in Fawlty Towers when John Cleese's car wont start so he beats it with a tree branch .
ROB Thanks for the CR. . I have enjoyed reading about 1812 we were taught next to nothing about it at school. I wonder how much the conflicts at the time spurred on the Industrial Revolution.
TOM.Yes on our trip it will be interesting to try to spot where the closed stations were. It may in some places the small town the station served may not be there anymore perhaps.
Great theme day material on the Pullmans, with great details from you on the US side and DL on the British cars. Many thanks .
Maybe we can fit in the Pullman Museum in 2008 in Chicago.It seems a shame that the Pullman Co ran into the troubles with the courts in the 1940s, its name though will live on though.
Glad DL was able to clear up the Devon Belle situation.I travelled on the one already in England on the preservered South Devon Railway between Totnes and Buckfastleigh . The back end of the car was where a small bar was situated.
DL Enjoyed the links although the pics on the Science & Society site wont load at the minute I will try again later.
It is strange that the Midland Railway was the first to have a Pullman car and the London Midland region was the last to run an all-Pullman train on British Rail yet the LMS did not run Pullmans.
I well remember the Electric hauled all Pullman Manchester Pullman and the Liverpool Pullman, which carried standard carriages as well on the West Coast Main line. In the evening the two trains would follow each other, after leving London in the evening rush hour.
The cars that made up the traine were :
Pullman First with Kitchen that weighed 40 ton and seated 18.
Pullman Parlour First that weighed 35 ton and seated 36
and Pullman Brake First that weighed 35 ton and seated 30 .
These cars used a system called "Pressure Ventilation" which I guess was an early form of air conditioning.
Another pic of the Metro-Cammell Pullman Eagle at the Bluebell Rly.
I believe these were the last BR cars to appear in the traditional pullman Umber & Cream colours.
After working the Yorkshire Pullman , after some years of storage they found some use on the Steam Locomtive Operators Association (SLOA) on some of there steam and diesel hauled specials. although they were a lot more comfortable than the standard MK1s, they were not at all popular with a section of the railfans that went on the steam tours mainly due to not having windows in the doors that opened, unlike the MK1 stock. In fact I still can remember a letter to the railway press at the time entitled "Pullman Prisoner". I think at the time some people would have paid a higher fare to travel in the MK1s on a steam tour.
Although they were better that a MK1 in comfort they did not compare well to the older Pullman cars in my opinion.
This Pullman car was serving light refreshments at Horsted Keynes at the Bluebell Giants Of Steam Gala in October.
Good link on the 6-PUL units, I had forgotton about those.
LARS Reallt great set of posters . Those London Tramways ones are a gem, ones I had not seen before or knew nothing about the Pullman connection.
On the Yorkshire Pullman in the 30,s this train was often hauled by a Great Northern 4-4-2 Altlantic, it made a splendid sight .
I do hope you can make the rendezvous in May it will be good to have a jar or two together.
JAMES Thanks for the kind words on the pics, hope you can get your computer fixed real soon.
Just caught up with the recent posts and good to see you in again ROB and have a beer on me.
Great to see those Pullman ads again TOM. The ads had style like their cars..
DOUG. I guess the drop table is the one you have shown photos of it being built. Lets hope the Frisco is in steam when we go there in 2008.
Great idea to show the Pullman- Strandard box-car . The 80,000 sold proves what a well made car it must have been. Have a great Thanksgiving.
Well the jaw is slowly recovering I think I will try a Holdens special now LEON Please.
Good evening Tom and friends! I’ll have a bottomless draught and buy a round for the house. I brought more Michigan quarters for the jukebox, so let’s get some tunes playing! Excellent stuff from DL today with our Pullman theme. You really outdid yourself sir! I too, did not know how much influence Pullman had abroad. I thought that efforts to market outside of the U.S. weren’t too successful. There’s a relatively new book out on the Pullman company, and I got to see its author at a 20th Century Railroad Club meeting. I’m sure to see him again, and will purchase his book the next chance I get. Pete, the loco we need to fix at IRM is our Frisco decapod, and we need to drop table operational to be able to do it. I’m betting that the table will be in service in 2007, which makes 2008 a likely year to get our steam service back up. As for your cannibal joke … did you hear that one cannibal said to another, “I sure hate my mother-in-law”. The other replied, “she doesn’t taste that bad to me!” (everyone groan together)
Thanks for the kind words Rob, and the history lesson you have going with Tom as well. Great Pullman Wikipedia work Tom. There’s a lot of good stuff there. James, bummer about the computer. The Valley Modelers are completely HO, and proud of it. Mostly saw diesel engines though there were coaling and water facilities for steam. Glad ya’ll like the animation, especially Lars who provided first class Pullman signs and ads today. Really liked ‘em! Here’s my humble submission for today:
The PS-1 was the largest selling boxcar ever built in North America. From the first production in 1947, until the end of 40-ft. car sales in the early 1960s, more than 80,000 of these cars were sold by Pullman-Standard, most to a very standardized design featuring the first large-scale use of welding in freight car assembly. This example purchased by the St. Louis-San Francisco as part of an order of 2850 cars well illustrates this historic design. Its smooth sides exemplify the PS-1’s welded construction. The underframe, for which welding was already an established technology, was less noteworthy by this time as a welded structure.
The built date of this car, shown on the car side, was May, 1956, near the end of large-scale sales of 40-ft. PS-1’s. This size car, virtually the standard of North American railroads since shortly after 1900, rapidly became obsolescent as shippers demanded wider doors (note the 8-ft. door on this car) and larger car interiors. In the 1960s, cars became both longer and taller inside, and the 40-ft. car was relegated to work service or to scrap.
Note also the large railroad emblem at left with the nickname, “Frisco,” the even larger “shipper’s slogan” at right, and the reflective side-sill rectangles intended to aid motorist visibility. This is an outgrowth of much greater awareness of public relations in the mid-1950s by railroads. Pullman-Standard photo.
This will be me …. Decorating the house for the holidays in a few days
http://www.lotsofjokes.com/media/pic_0232.jpg
Good afternoon, fellow barflies. Ruth my dear could I have a rather larger Keith's to wind up my day, thank-you. Oh here's a tip and some extra for a round for the evening folks.
Well some interesting info passed by on these pages today, a first off general thank-you to all who have contributed and help keep this site sane and relevent, except for the odd detour once in a while.
DL-First in with info first acknowledged. Wionderfull piece onn the English Pullman services, sounded like quite a hefty service at one time.The links were quite usefull and informative. i still ahve a couple to check out but an all around good show.Nice to hear about that repatriation project. Niot all that hefty of a price to move the car, given the distance it needs to come. I can remember our musuem spending $20,000 US to bring LE&N 797 back from the sSeashore Museum in Kennebunkport in the early 90's and that wasn't near the distance, shows the prices CN and CP charge for freight shipping ( the car was shipped in a train on it's own wheels )
Tom-Ye gods and little fish hooks but that was a well rounded piece. I don't know if I have anything left not already posted by yourself on the Pullman company. Still interesting to see the number of little sub companies and divisions PS had near the end.
lars-great photo's to back up the Pullman Posts today sir liked the picture of the Blue Pullman, didn't really look all that different from it's NA cousins.
James-Too bad to hear about the dimise of your PC. Hopefully you won't be out of action too long, I'd hate to loose another regular contributer around here. Check your newspapers. Similar re-actments likely happen around your neck of the woods, they are fun to watch but much more fun to participate in.
Finnally Tom n Lars-I'm glad to see that we are on the same page of the history books again <grin> still different perspectives for everything. Thanks for the and wishes of a new calling for me Tom. Unfortunatly the youth of this country are less and less interested in the mundane stories of things past. if it isn't on Utube or an MP3 player the meaning is lost sad really. I had actually seriously concidered a carreer in either teaching or digging ( archeology ) didn't ahve the bucks to pay for the coarses at the time and it would take a million yeasr at night school. So I live through my books could be worse.Actually lars if Tom ever gets finished reading the two books I gave him concider borowwing them they are a good read.
Enjoy the day one and all . . . .
Until the next time!
Lars
G-day Tom and all present!
Ruth- I just need a coffee for now, thanks.
Well my computer is officially dead. Last night after sending an email and coming here to post, the Mother board fried. I have no internet at home. So here I am at work waiting for some empties that I will be switching out later, enjoying these computers. unfortuantely I cannot see any of the photos that you guys post. I can go on to a few links though. So I will do my best to get back to some more comments later on things I can't see.
I would say that The Sunday posting was very successful. Some really neat pics out there. I remembered who posted what yesterday and on Sunday.
Rob- Thanks for all the info on the reactment at fort George. That must have been quite the fight. I would have enjoyed watching something like that. To see how everyone fights is amazing. Thanks. Your Via rail pics are nice. I don't think I have seen a Red F40. I don't know how you could miss something like that rolling along. Thanks for the comments on the Little joe article. I glad you found it interesting.
Barndad- I thought it was interesting, the model railroad you took pictures of, that they would use an old substation to place it in. It's acually very cool. You could drive right up to the substation and see where all the trains pasted by. I especially liked the layout they had taken the time to build in the building. Wow! Thats is one large layout. Do you know what they are modeling mostly? I saw a lot of mix.
BTW: The dead dog joke goes on the Groan-o-meter as a 4. It was bad but funny at the same time.
Glad you liked the Little joe article. I think it gave a good explanation, though brief, on how it came to be.
Lars- Your C&NW Passeneger book cover caught my eye. Do you know were I would beable to get more info on the book? Possibly so I could purchase it. thanks.
Pete- Your picture of the narrow gauage locomotive was really cool. I have never actually been up to a narrow gauage locomotive. It would be cool to see one some day. At the North Shore Sceneic Railroad, they have a few Narrow gauage cars that they acquired along with a narrow gauage trolley. The trolley still runs and they use it over the summer. Nice pics. Steam is always a nice sight to behold.
Yes the turbine is a interesting locomotive. My friend has the movie. I could get the name for you if you want.
Thanks for the comments on the little joe article. Next week should be good also.
DL- I just saw the Observation car the flying Scottsman has. That is one nice car. Our cars don't have that big bay window on the back. Usually ours have a walk out portion where you can sit and watch the back of the train roll on. Pretty cool to see a observation still in service.
I'm glad you thought the Little Joe an interesting article. I learned something new also. I didn't know the passenger Joe had roller bearings. It does make sence though.
Tom- I saw your NP map that you had posted. I copied it to my documents for future reference. Thanks for the maps. It helps in finding places along a railroad. I also liked the the Pullman Article. I'm going to read it over again so that I understand everything. But interesting none the less. Thanks
Well, If I have missed you on any pictures from Sunday I will get to you. I dont' know how long the computer will be down.
Happy railroading.
James
Good afternoon Tom
Well, now I’ve finished my breakfast I’ll have something from the lunch menu please.
Glad you liked the UK Pullman info – I’m sure other will come up with interesting contributions. Really enjoyed your entry. I did not know about the merger with Standard, did not know about the Superliner Production as late as the 1980s, or the sale to Bombardier, or the recent twists and turns of ownership. Fascinating stuff.
Your comment made me dig a bit more about the car left in San Francisco – turns out this was part of the Flying Scotsman train that toured USA / Canada in 1969 and went Bankrupt in the process. The engine was rescued, but looks like the cars all got left behind (some Brit cars – not Pullmans - from Eisenhower’s Official war time command train also ended up in USA and are at a RR museum in Wisconsin – in that case I think it is fitting that cars from that train went to USA – kind of helps mark the contribution US soldiers made to the UK during their stay here in run up to ’44 and after).
Anyway – by coincidence I find a UK preserved railway is raising money to return the San Francisco Pullman Observation car to the UK!! They just launched the project back end of September – all explained on this link.
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news322.htm
I quote:
“A £30,000 appeal has been launched by Swanage Railway volunteers to save a Pullman observation coach from the USA that was hauled by the world famous ‘Flying Scotsman’ steam locomotive – and return it to England.
“Currently located in San Francisco, California, the Pullman observation car has fronted an office building since being left on the quayside at the end of the ill-fated ‘Flying Scotsman’ tour of the USA and Canada back in 1971.
“Used variously as a café, conference room and a humble store over the last thirty years, the owners have decided to renovate the offices and have concluded that they no longer require the car.
“Agreement has been reached with the Swanage Railway Trust for the coach to return home, not just to England but to Southern Railway metals and a new working life on the Swanage Railway
More info on the car is here:
http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2216
Including its location in San Francisco:
150 Chestnut St, San Francisco
Looking this up it is pretty central in the city – shame I did not know about this when I was in San Francisco a few years back when I took a run on Amtrak C – Zephyr from Denver where my brother was working at the time. I’d have taken a look.
I guess what with SF being so close to many of you statesiders you’ll have to go and take a peek – can’t be far from you surely? Can you fit it in to the re-union weekend events?
Meanwhile – Tom, what about us putting a collecting tin on the bar for the repatriation and restoration of this car on the bar? All contributions can be donated.
I’ve just fixed up to spend a weeks vacation in the town of Swanage with a group of friends in Jan (of course just a handy co-incidence it is served by a preserved steam railway…)
Regards
DL
Now arriving on Track #2
RR THEME for the DAY - Number Eight
Used with permission from Wikipedia, the free encylopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds and images from other sources.
PULLMAN COMPANY
The streamlined Pullman observation-lounge car Coconino, coupled to a heavyweight sleeper painted in two-tone Pullman grey, brings up the rear of the Santa Fe Railway's Chief at La Junta, Colorado on February 27, 1938.
The Pullman Palace Car Company, founded by George Pullman, manufactured railroad cars in the mid to late 1800s through the early decades of the 20th century, during the boom of railroads in the United States. Pullman developed the sleeping car which carried his name into the 1980s.
George Pullman was inspired by an overnight train ride from Buffalo to Westfield, New York to design an improved passenger railcar. He established his company in 1867 and built luxury sleeping cars which featured carpeting, draperies, upholstered chairs, libraries and card tables and an unparalleled level of customer service. Once a household name due to their large market share, the Pullman Company is also known for the bitter Pullman Strike staged by their workers and union leaders in 1894. During an economic downturn, Pullman reduced hours and wages but not rents leading to the strike. Workers joined the American Railway Union, led by Eugene V. Debs.
Exterior view of a Pullman car.
A Pullman car, interior view.
A 1910 Pullman car which served as Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad Business Car No. 101 now restroed as the Abraham Lincoln.
Pullman Copmany troop sleeper #8483 stands idel at Denver, Colorado on April 22, 1946.
After George Pullman's death in 1898, Robert Todd Lincoln, son of Abraham Lincoln became company president. The company closed its factory in the Pullman neighborhood in 1957. Pullman purchased the Standard Steel Car Company in 1930 amid the Great Depression, and the merged entity was known as Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company. The company ceased production after the Amtrak Superliner cars in 1982 and its remaining designs were purchased in 1987 when it was absorbed by Bombardier.
The original Pullman Palace Car Co., had been organized on February 22, 1867, and after buying numerous associated and competing companies, was reorganized as The Pullman Co., on January 1, 1900.
The best years for Pullman were the mid 1920s. In 1925 the fleet grew to 9800 cars. Twenty-eight thousand conductors and twelve thousand porters were employed by the Pullman Co. A Pullman timeline is at The Pullman Virtual Museum
Pullman Car & Manufacturing Co., had been organized on June 18, 1924, from the previous Pullman Company Manufacturing Department, to consolidate the car building interests of The Pullman Co. The parent company, The Pullman Co., was reorganized as Pullman, Inc., on June 21, 1927.
Pullman purchased controlling interest in Standard Steel Car Company in 1929.
Pullman built its last standard heavyweight sleeping car in February 1931.
On December 26, 1934, Pullman Car & Manufacturing (along with several other Pullman, Inc. subsidiaries), merged with Standard Steel Car Co. (and it subsidiaries) to form the Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company.
Standard Steel Car Co., had been organized on January 2, 1902, to operate a railroad car manufacturing facility at Butler, Pennsylvania, (and a
G’day Gents!
Tuesday already and we’re heading rapidly to the early close of the work week, for many. Some take off tomorrow thru the weekend, whereas others must work right up ‘til closing time on Wednesday. Most have Friday off, except the retailers, emergency services, and assorted other organizations. We’ll be here! So, check out the Mentor Village Bakery case, draw a hot cuppa Joe, and make a selection from our Menu Board of <light> and <traditional> breakfasts.
Since I’m on a self-proclaimed reduced participation, here’s some catch-up acknowledgments:
DL at 11:13 AM yesterday: My bride says that her father trained pilots for the RCAF, RAF and other nations in Alberta during WWII. But of course, that is all from family history – no first hand accounts from my young wife! <smile> Perhaps he also made it over to Saskatchewan – I’ll have to ask her mom next time we are on the subject.
Having never been engaged in any type of preservation efforts, I have no “feel” for the subject. However, I am most appreciative for the efforts in time, money and labor of those who “bring back” the locomotives and rolling stock of days gone by. Of course as time marches on – which it will and does – there will be fewer ‘n fewer around who give a Rat’s Patoot, and someday . . . .
Lars at 4:18 PM yesterday: Having a “bad ‘puter day!” eh Yeah – I have had my moments and fully understand your feelings. Those animated cartoons from Doug this morning say it all!
We do not have solidarity at this bar – and probably never will when it comes to the business of acknowledging those who ignore us. It’s one of the biggest disappointments I’ve had with all of this since we opened on April12th, 2005. No matter how rude or ignorant some are, we have those who go along with it and do not realize the appearance of encouragement. Yes, we lost some good guys, but customers at any price Not where I come from, I do not subscribe to rewarding bad behavior. I do appreciate your support on this. But, it surely isn’t worth getting one’s knickers in a knot. Chill, Mate, chill.
Doug at 9:38 PM yesterday: Great cartoons! 5- salute to you! Many of us can relate to those! <groan>
Thanx for the part deux of the CGW! Better late than never, eh Good reading!
Pete at 9:55 PM yesterday: Enjoyed talking with you last evening! Finally got that video we were watching completed at nearly 11 PM. <yawn> Late for old timers like us! <grin> Anyway, seems like we accomplished quite a bit for our planned trip to Delson and Gaspe along with an Amtrak run in a few weeks. Way to go!
Amazed that there were 25 stations between here and KCity, MO on the route we take. We’ll have to pay close attention to the passing landscape to determine if there are remains about to reveal the locations. (I suppose we can do that while holding our beverages, eh)
Solution for pre-dentist visit: gargle three times an hour with some JD – swallow it! <grin>
Rob at 5:02 AM today: Thanx for the insights and elaborations on “that” war we’ve been discussing! <grin> Absolutely concur with your assessment regarding the true birth of two nations. That makes the point for me! You missed your calling – but it’s still not too late. Why not get into education History seems to be a natural for you.
We have the “Mosquito Squadron” flick in our DVD library – but I’ve been unable to find a suitable Pix for the Sunday spread. The “633 Squadron
Good morning Tom and all in
Please can I have a coffee and light breakfast whilst I give a talk on the UK Pullman cars. Hope the links work – if not try cutting and pasting into your web browser.
I think it if fair to say that the British Pullman Car operation was significantly different than that in North America – so I’m trying to give some information on things from a UK perspective, but hope to learn more about the North American operation – where it seems to me that ‘Pullman’ is synonymous with sleeping cars – I bet I’ll stand corrected on that so I look forward to hearing more!
Anyway, as I understand it G M Pullman was keen to get a market in the UK in the late 19th century, and the British Midland Railway was intent on competing on its London Scotland route and wished to do so by providing quality of service. They thus entered into a deal with Pullman whereby some up-market cars were built in the US and shipped in parts to the UK where they were assembled for this route.
Some of these early cars are pictured here
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10324685&wwwflag=2&imagepos=12
By the early 20th Century a British Pullman operation had been set up, under British management. However, Pullman did not provide sleeping car services in the UK – instead they focused on up market day time travel with luxurious cars providing comfort and dining for which a supplement was payable on top of the 1st or 2nd class fare (or 3rd class actually but the persistence of 3rd class and non existence of 2nd class for most of the 20th C in the UK is another story!). The Pullman Car company designed the cars, owned them, staffed them and earned money from the supplements. Trains ran either as All Pullman car services with no other cars, or very often as Pullman Cars set into the consist of other trains. Certain US associations continue with Pullman – ie they are refereed to as ‘cars’ whereas in Britain most ‘cars’ are referred to as ‘carriages’.
The Pullman Car company had a works in Brighton on the south coast (the building is still there (just)) at Preston Park where cars were maintained and the operation run.
Of course the hey day of the Pullman car in the UK was certainly the classic era – 1920s – 1950s with core themes of the cars well established by this period – typically these included the Pullman Umber (brown) and cream paint scheme, the oval windows for the lavatories at the car ends, distinctive table lamps and at the car end inward opening doors (so the attendant could stand at the door and greet passengers whist the train looked ‘tidy’ – all other carriages in the UK had / have outward opening doors), names for the 1st class cars and numbers for the 3rd class cars.
This classic era is recreated on a number of preserved railways where Pullman cars have been expertly restored (The Bluebell railway being a good example),
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/arrow.html
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/car_fingall.html
but also for the famous Venice Simplon Orient Express owned by US company Sea Containers. Some info and pics of the cars used on the British Leg are here:
http://www.seat61.com/Venice-Simplon-Orient-Express.htm
many of these cars are restored from redundant use for other purposes – like the wonderful Camping Coach pictured here – what a great way to spend a holiday!
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10460590&wwwflag=2&imagepos=60
During this era the Southern Railway in Britain was a big user of Pullman Cars, both on luxury Boat Trains like The Golden Arrow (more next week),
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10175985&wwwflag=2&imagepos=6
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10171361&wwwflag=2&imagepos=40
Or some of the other luxury Pullman trains detailed in this poster
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10173417&wwwflag=2&imagepos=4
Quite often Pullman cars were marshalled into other services, and even the electric multiple units of the SR serving south coast resorts and commuters had them. The 6 Pul units detailed / pictured here are an example:
http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/6pul.html
For some reason the UK Pullman car company was not nationalised in 1948 – but by the 1950s the govt started buying Pullman car shares and eventually it became part of British Railways. This opened the door for the construction of more modern Pullman cars, some for locomotive haulage like these built in the late 50s early 60s now preserved and used for charter trips on the main line – they still maintained the traditional colour scheme and inward opening doors, but table lamps were to a more modern style, and whilst still luxurious the interiors used modern materials (eg Formica) and styling common to the 1950s / 60s period when constructed (this must have seemed very simple at the time, but to my mind now looks very stylish in its won way too): See
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/eagle.html
http://www.vintagetrains.co.uk/tlw_coaches.htm
Also during this period BR introduced the Blue Pullman trains mentioned here a few weeks back in about 1960 – these were a diesel fixed formation all Pullman service of very stylish design. Sadly none of these were preserved when scrapped as soon as the early 1970s.
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10316314&wwwflag=2&imagepos=42
By the late 60s early 70s various trends served to conspire against Pullman operations – they were seen as elitist by many of the public (and the Unions!), and business expenses were probably also under pressure. Many Pullman Trains were withdrawn by the early 1970s and BR were clearly not planning to build any modern cars to replace the 1930s – 50s cars still then in regular use – some of thse services had become a shadow of their former selves with just a few Pullman cars marshalled into a longer rake. The Golden Arrow for example ended in 1972.
The last purpose built Pullman cars built for BR were designed and constructed for the Manchester / Liverpool Electrification scheme of the 1960s. These cars were built in 1965 and again had familiar Pullman styling although to amore modern body side design, painted in a special ‘Pullman’ version of the standard blue and grey BR Livery. I can’t find a very good picture of the cars, but a picture of the train is here. Pete – I wondered if you had memories of these?
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10438813&wwwflag=3&imagepos=2
These cars continued in service until at least the 1980s as I recall seeing them regularly at London Euston Station. Many of them are now preserved and run in certain charter train services. Whether they have original interiors I don’t know since I think some have been bought by Sea Containers to complement its southern operation – they have faked up a classic 1930s interior in these 1960s cars which to my mind is a pretty naff thing to do!!
As I say, these were the last purpose built UK Pullman Cars – since their demise the name Pullman is still used in conjunction with UK rail operations whenever an operator wants to confer the idea of luxury – so it is a powerful brand – but it is little more than an upscale branding of a conventional train with little extra in the way of frills above the standard first class offering. However, the restored cars on preserved railways – or the charter cars fit to run on special service on the main line do mean you can sample Pullman Car travel from the classic era in the UK today.
A good history of the Pullman Cars with some nice pics is here
http://www.semg.org.uk/coach/pull_1.html
The Devon Belle Pullman Observation car (or one of them) resides as a company board room in San Francisco!
Hope this is of interest
Good morning everyone. I'm just in starting up the cooking utensils and coffee pots for Ruth who shall be in in a bit. Actually it's al,most 5am my time and I'm heading into work for six I'm aint's a morning person
So to some acknowmedgements for the bulk of Sunday and monday. Slow days but the holiday's are upon us so we do take what we get round these parts.
Doug-Thouroughly enjoyed the shots and story about the train club in the old interurbans powerhouse. great shots sir no matter how cramped or dark the area's were. They do look like a good club to join. I alway's like seeing old railway buildings preserved and re-used. Great info on your two parter on the CGW , nice to have you back in the land of the posting
James-Great part three on the Lil Joes my young friend, it was worth the wait.
Lars-Great book covers as always sir. To bad about your computer problems. I think Doug's cartoon pretty much sums up all of our collective rants towards the miracles of modern techknowlogy amnd it's applications in modern life. glad to hear about your two cents on history , I'll clarify in a minute or so.
Tom-Wonderfull sunday movie choices, The Mosquito sqd movie is one of my favouritesand I alway's love a good maritme flick as well..I do know about wikipedia's background. As Pete said it's a fairly even depiction of history more in a bit however as I think I understand the confusion of my satnce to you folks.wonderfull railway maps in your second installment of sunday photo's sir
Dl-We will share good tea together at some point ( I hope )Canada was the great areodome of freedom during WW2.The base at Moosejaw is still a serving CDN forces base, advance fighter and pilot training for the RCAF still today,and the home to our Snowbird ai demonstration SQD. Amazing howmany small airstrips in Canada were used by the Commonwealth air training program basically anything big enough to land a plane on. I'm looking forward to your contribution to the Pullman's latter today and on the boat trains next week.
Pete-Great shots from Alan as usual. Thanks for the support on or history attempts round here, we shall try to keep it in the not so much in the forground howeverI'll save a bit of the speacil CR for you and purcahse a round later to help ease the dentist's toll on you and your pocket book.
Tom 'n' Lars -Okay i see that there was a bit of confusion on the recent hostory talk let me "slpain" as I see it. In Canada, history is taught ( at least when I was in school still is really ) on not just the world view but how it effects or effected us. The war of 1812 is taught in the US I surmise from both of your comments on how it is was percieved in the United States, it teaches you the reasons as laid out by the why the war happened and how it ended for you. Up hear it's taught thas the root causes, how it effected both sides and more deeply how it effected us ( Canada ) and how that effected the formation of our country . Likely it's given more school time then what you had, so let me try to explain in 5 pages or less As we all aggree on the war was started as a result of the impressing of US seamen the various draconian trade embargos your young country was suffering at the hands of wartorn Europe, Primarily British and French legislation.As the US expanded west in the early 1800's your settlers had some early conflicts with the western Indain nations ( battle of Tippicanoe in 1811 as an example ) many in the US governmentv at the time felt that Briton was supllying arms to the Indains to hold back your western expansion, honestly I've seen eveidence of yes and no on that one. The arms were likley traded to the Indians by the fur traders of The Hudson Bay Company ( Britsh crown corp ) And yes when the warhawks took over in congress in 1811-1812 the odds of war with Britin to right the wrongs became more assured. There were those in the states that felt that wipping British North America of the map would be the best route to take in gaining the recognition of europe and stopping the forementioned worngs that the British Government had done to you. ) Impressing of sailors etc) Actually Thomas Jefferson was quoted as saying in 1812 when war was declared "That the defeat of the British in Canada will simply be a matter of marching" That quote was a rallying cry in the colonioes in Canada and really galvinised the Upper and Lower Canadiain's against the american invaders, likley why so many did take up arms against you. here's where the history at least how it's taught differs.Up hear the root causes are taught, the major battles are taught ( and the minor ones )but we focus on it's nation building impact.When you look at the founding fathers or father's of Confederation as we call them here in Canada. All of them to the one served during the war. Weather you talk about William Hamilton Merrit, ( builder of the Welland canals ) Sir John A( ist PM ) William Lyon Mackenzie ( rabble rouser and country maker ) GE Cartier founder and revolutionary the list goes on. at any rate their experiences in defending Canada ( then still a collection of separrate colonies ) set them on their paths of creating our country.As I said a couple days ago 80% od the soldiers you folks fought were Canadian or natives, so even though the war was declared to get Britain to stop their "anti US "activities it in fact galvinized our founders to create our country.Yes it took another 50 years but it was the beginning. Without getting to into this, there aare an amazing archieve of info and letters etc in Ottawa written by ordinary and the notables of Canadian society during the war of 1812. At the satrt of the war in 1812 there was a general why are we fighting attitude, as the war dragge don through 1813-and 1814 this became absolute indignation at the Yankee invaders ( to many towns and homes burnt etc )galvinized the colonists to survive at all costs, also created the seeds of our independance from England as well, as years wore on we got more and more independant, in 1837 the Upper and Lower Canada rebellions for a better and more honest and powerfull local legislatures. The Charlottetown Confreence and eventually the aggreement in 1867 to become a sovreign nation. The war of 1812 was that initial building block, which is why I say and that we are taught ,that it's a war "Canada" won, if we had just thrown in the towel then, we wouldn't be able to have these disscusions today .I'd be complaining about congress or my states welfare laws etc.No land changed hands, much blood was spilt and I think two nations were truly born.A
HI Tom and all.
I,ll have a Holdens please LEON and a round.
TOM Thanks for the railroad maps. Looking at them especially the B&O and the AT&SF ones it seems the railroads had a depot in nearly every town they passed through. I guess they ran all station stopping trains which must have taken a long time to travel a relitively short distance.I had a look at the atlas and saw that there were another 25 stations on the line between Kirkwood and Kansas City on the now UP line that Amtrak uses.
JAMES Thanks for the color pics on the Little Joes on the Milwaukee Road. That is a great photo of the scene at Avery station.
NICK Look forward to the pics and hope Hannah had a.
DOUG Glad you liked the pics. I hope we can get to the Valley Model railroad and a visit to the IRM is a must for 2008. What is the loco the museum is hoping to steam. The expense in getting a steam loco back to working order is not getting any cheaper. In Britain there is a fair bit of a newly restored loco moving to other preserved lines where the hiring fees help to pay for the next overhaul although this generally only covers part of the cost. Although with the larger locos and the greater distance that has to be travelled, I suppose that it would not be practical in North America.
Looking forward to part 2 on the CGW
With the joke, was the two cannibals the same ones who where eating a clown when one of them said" Does this taste funny to you" Oh Dear.
DL Good link to the AC Locomotive Group. I recall seeing 89001 at the Midland Railway Centre at Butterley, it also worked through Rugby on test trains when new. It was then in BR's Inter city livery. It is a pity the AC group could not get use of the Old Dalby test track, to run their locos. while in England I saw loco#87002 which is named after the Group.
I will tell Alan about the visit of Rob Foxon to Rugby in February. You will have to give us a review of the Newark show, if you will. One of his shows I went to had colour footage of the Coronation streamliners in both blue and red leaving London Euston in the late 1930s, marvellous..
LARS. Real sorry you are having problems with the net. It seems as though it is a bad time with computers for some of us, I have had problems here on the net lately. Perhaps its a plot to get us to buy new computers for Christmas.
DOUG I see you have posted part 2 of the CGW so I will have a read of it now .
Well TOM it was real good to talk to you and will call in for Pullman Day, Dentist willing. Talking of the dreaded dentist I had better have a Bathams XXX to prepare and another round please LEON.
Good evening Leon! I'll be having a bottomless draught and spring for a round for all present. I see Tom was here earlier, and friend DL. For Lars
We all feel your pain. Yes, I know the CGW was last Tuesdays' theme, but I couldn't do anything about it until today. Speaking of which:
The Amazing Great Western Sep. 1953 Railroad Magazine
A glance at the map shows how the Great Western serves the heart of America’s breadbasket. With Oelwein as its center, its lines run, like the four pointers of a compass, through fertile prairie land. Since it serves primarily a farming country, it is not surprising that about 43 percent of its originating tonnage is composed of agricultural and animal products. Manufactured articles account for some 38 percent of the balance, with products of mines 17 percent.
A noticeable characteristic of many of the road’s time freights is the relative frequency of refrigerator cars. The reason for this is that nearly 5 percent of the CGW’s freight revenue comes from fresh meats. Back when the railroad was being built, its first president, A.B. Stickney, founded the now-famous St. Paul Union Stockyards. To this day that cattle and packing center is served exclusively by the Great Western, and the road naturally gets a very high share of the meat traffic. There are also on-line packing houses at Austin, Minnesota; Mason City, Waterloo and Des Moines, Iowa; St. Joseph, Missouri; Omaha, Nebraska, and a half dozen other communities.
Another item peculiar to the Corn Belt Route is the long strings of flat cars hauling truck-trailers. Nightly these highway vehicles roll on flats between Chicago and St. Paul; Chicago and Kansas City, and Chicago and Council Bluffs. Some of the trailers go only to Des Moines, others may go from St. Paul to Omaha; but whatever their destination they are indicative of the company’s aggressive policy to get more business.
The aggressiveness is carried over to the rank and file of the road’s 3000 employees. The engine and train crews in particular are a two-fisted, hard-working breed of men, good railroaders all. They don’t have to worry about fastidious passengers in streamlined limiteds, or about starting trains in such a way that coffee won’t spill in the diners, or sleepers be jolted in their berths. All Pullman and dining service was withdrawn a few years ago, and freight now rules supreme. The big job is to get tonnage over the road, to wheel heavy freights from division to division with dispatch. Most CGW employees are veterans, and they have seen the road through ups and downs; receivership and rehabilitation; maintenance cut to the bone; and, in recent years, an all-out comeback. It’s been a grim fight, but at no time were management and men ready to take the count. The story of the Chicago Great Western is a saga in managerial ingenuity from the days of Alpheus Beede Stickney to William Neal Deramus, III.
It was Stickney, an ex-schoolteacher and young lawyer, who conceived, built and headed virtually every mile of the present-day CGW. A State of Mainer, he came westward to Minnesota upon reaching his majority and soon became interested in railroad construction and promotion. Stickney was aggressive and a good fighter. As one of his antagonists put it, “The trouble with him was that you could not always tell, or even approximately guess, where he would be likely to turn up after you thought you had him licked.” Along with these traits he had a sense of humor.
A story is told by the late Edwin W. Winter, formerly general manager of the Omaha Road and later president of the Northern Pacific, illustrating Stickney’s wit. Stickney, at that time, operated the North Wisconsin Railway, of which “the Omaha” was about to get control. The North Wisconsin road had a wreck under the Stickney administration, and the Winters people were making sport of the mishap. But their merriment ended when the following message came over the wire to Winter.
I understand you have leased the North Wisconsin Railway for twelve o’clock tonight. I also understand the North Wisconsin train is very much in the ditch near Richmond. You can take them both as quick as you please.” – Alpheus B. Stickney
Stickney’s railroad experience also included a hitch with the St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba (now Great Northern) as superintendent of construction. This was followed by a stint with the Canadian Pacific in much the same capacity. Early in the Eighties he became interested in building an independent line from St. Paul to the south. Acquiring the charter of the dormant Minnesota & Northwestern (issued back in 1854), he completed that road from St. Paul to Manly Junction, Iowa, in 1885. At the Junction the M&NW connected with the Iowa Central. All the while, however, the energetic Stickney had his eyes set on the Chicago and Kansas City. It was obvious ,too, that the name Minnesota & Northwestern was misleading, for Manly is southwest of St. Paul, and the proposed extensions were to the east and south.
To further his expansion plans, Stickney and his associates incorporated the Chicago, St. Paul & Kansas City Railway in 1886. This new road soon took over the property of the Minnesota & Northwestern and proceeded to link all the cities in its title. In 1888 the through line from St. Paul to Chicago was in operation. Most of the route was newly constructed with the exception of about fifteen miles from Dubuque, Iowa, to Aiken, Ill., where trackage rights were had over the Illinois Central and the Burlington. The Stickney road entered Chicago from Forest Park over what is now the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad. An unusual feature on this extension is the Winston Tunnel, just short of a half-mile long, in western Illinois. It is the longest, and perhaps the only, tunnel in the state. Until the coming of the diesels a blower system was necessary to keep the long bore clear of noxious gasses. (to be continued)
Sweep of track into St. Paul Union Station was dominated by Minneapolis-bound train with Pacific 931 on head end. Made in 1948, photo was taken from the roof of St. Paul Depot Co’s engine house.
Greetings Cap'n Tom and fellow travelers at the bar!
Ruth, I'll take a triple JD on the rocks! Just lost 2 posts within the hour, haven't a clue what's going on. But my patience isn't, so either this works, or I'm gone. <frown>
And to think I was in an upbeat frame of mind until this happened! <growl>
I'm not going to try to recreate my lost ramblings, just let me say that it's good to see Doug 'n DL today. Kind of expected it to be a light traffic week and perhaps even less as we get closer to the holiday weekend. As Cap'n Tom likes to tell us, "We takes what we gets!"
Couldn't agree more with the enforcement of the policy at the bar. I've always been in favor of totally ignoring those who ignore us. What' s the point in playing footsie with guys who refuse to get on board My question is and has been, WHY ARE THEY HERE Didn't we just go through all of this most recently Good grief Charlie Brown! There are many, many sites where one can engage in the "one way" posting - it isn't welcome here. So, I'm all for ignoring people like that.
Really a weird thing happening to my set up here, for the conenction to the internet is locking up my 'puter. Haven't been on any other sites but this one. So, perhaps someone more well versed than I can figure it out. I have NO patience with it!
Sorry, Cap'n Tom - but it's turned into a mess and I betta skedaddle before I break something or somebody! <uh oh!>
Hello Tom and greetings to all in.
I’ll take a pint of Harvey’s Best.
Tom, first of all just to pick up on your point, my uncle was trained in Canada at Moosejaw – but I’m not sure exactly what the training base there was like (that was back in 1942 – 43 I think). No doubt he spent training time at other places after the basics were covered. I guess we sent trainee RAF pilots over there so they could learn the ropes (as you sea goers would say) in a relatively risk free environment (enemy aircraft wise).
Lars – nice stuff on the GG1 – I’ve always loved the design but knew little about the history of the type so I enjoyed reading that. James – same comment to you re those Little Joes – never knew any of that stuff about Russia connection – fascinating.
Rob – nice to read your Canadian History notes – interesting stuff. Whilst Tom’s busy changing the barrel I’ve got to salute you on the Tea front – yep – you know what you’re doing no doubt about it – actually I’m reasonably relaxed about the bags vs the loose stuff (even though you ARE correct in your comments about this) – my problem with the North American approach is this: You Gotta BOIL the water when it meets the leaves – a cup of hot water is not what it takes.
Mike – thanks for those great pics of the 1950s Talgos – I had no idea they had such a long history – very impressive – well done for digging those images out.
Eric – thanks for your comments about the Gas Turbines.
Pete – yes, the AC Loco Group owns a fleet of the early electric designs – and in fact I’ve just sent them a small payment as a donation as they have an appeal to save the unique Class 89 design which GNER have put up for sale. I figured no point in moaning about designs not being preserved if you don’t put your money where your mouth is in this generation, if you can afford to do so from time to time.
http://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/
Thanks also for the GT3 stuff (did not realise GT1 & GT2 were the other WR designs either) – I’ve always liked the lines of that one, as you say styling clearly borrows from the steam engine what with a tender and the motion linkage. I recall reading stories that the heat output was so severe there were instances of it burning the wooden decking of foot bridges if it parked below them for any length of time!
As mentioned elsewhere – I wonder why widespread electrification was not a facet of the 1955 UK BR modernisation plan? Would have made a lot of sense. Maybe diesel was seen as quicker and cheaper?
Incidentally Pete – I’ve checked Rob Foxon’s schedule of Archive Railway Films: he is in Euston 6th Dec then various other places inc Rugby 21st Feb 2007, 19.30hrs, The Benn Hall, Newbold Road. He also does Kettering, Wellingborough and certain other Leicestershire dates (often the same film show is toured to a few different places, then he does a new show – so he probably does 4 or 5 totally different shows per year. I’m going to the Newark one on 30th Nov.) He was last in Rugby 18th Oct – an SAE to TUA Films, 17 Kingsway Leicester LE3 2JL results in a printed programme. Just in case any of this of use to your Rugby based friends.
Nick – good to read your contribs – look forward to your boat train stuff – meanwhile I’m thinking about Pullman cars on the SR – I’m hoping you will come in with something about the Brighton Belle, given your Brighton Line connections!
It’s Monday, but only a 3-day work week for some, and perhaps a week off for others! Time for a cuppa Joe, pastries from the Mentor Village Bakery case and maybe a <light> or <traditional> breakfast to start the day.
My plans for the week are to go slow and lay low as we get closer to U.S. Thanksgiving and the ensuring weekend! In other words, I’m gonna be rather scarce – I’ll make a Post or two, but other than that, it’s up to those of you. We’ll observe our “regular” hours though, so not to worry, the Tavern by the Tracks will be here for ya!
Good to see the continuation of our Sunday Photo Posting Day! as several of you provided some enjoyable views!
Looks like Pete and I provided Posts rather close to one another – so consider yourself acknowledged! And a to Nick’s lil’ one – Hannah!
We viewed a couple of new DVDs this weekend – "Buster (1988) and “The Great Train Robbery (1979)” (featured recently at the Emporium Theatre). Both good flicks, but our choice was with the latter. Some outstanding shots of the fast moving train (in Ireland) and very entertaining throughout. “Buster’ was – in a word – “different.” Thought the story line was a bit protracted. Hardly enough train stuff! Worth having these productions in our rather vast library. And yes, Pete, the score from 633 Squadron was entertaining – we viewed that one Friday nite as a matter of fact! Some train shots in it as well . . .
In the “Some People Will Never Get It (SPWNGI) department,” I see we’re still unable to get everyone on board when it comes to INCLUSIVE Posts and acknowledgments of the other guy and understanding the routine and hours of the bar. So, here’s the deal: NO RECOGNITION FROM ME TO THOSE WHO FAIL TO RECOGNIZE OTHERS. That’s ALWAYS been the policy and unfortunately, it has to be enforced. Anyone having problems with this – send me an Email – let’s keep the excuses and the like out of the bar.
Thanx for kicking off the morning for us, Doug – hopefully this return will be more on the regular side than not. The Great Western tale is a good start for our week! You do know we featured the CGW not that long ago, eh
Tomorrow’s Theme for the Day is the Pullman Company – watch for it!
Boris, serve ‘em all of the “spiked” OJ they can handle!
Remember: Ruth comes in at 9 AM and remains behind the bar ‘til Leon takes over at 5 PM!
Tom
Good morning Tom and friends! I’ll have two light breakfasts please, and leave a stack of quarters for later use. Pretty good picture day yesterday, I think. Got some new films for the Emporium thanks to Tom, new books to read from Lars (after I learn to read), really great pix from Alan, courtesy of Pete, Maps from Tom, and Milwaukee pix from James! Now for some particulars. I found a lot of my railroad material Tom, but there’s more to find …. I know. Gonna need another bookcase for sure. Sure appreciate the warm welcoming words Lars. It warms the heart of this unworthy one. Glad you liked the Valley Model Railroader stuff Pete. Guess maybe it will be added to the places we need to visit in 2008. Sure got some nice steam pix from Alan. I sure wish even one of our steam engines at the IRM would produce some steam. I’m betting that we do in 2008. Map pix are always interesting Tom. The thing I like best is that Chicago seems to almost always be in the picture. I searched my IRM pix for your engine James, and didn’t find it. Now I’ll be on the lookout for it the next time I go! And now….
Here’s the start of a story about the Great Western, from Sep. 1953 Railroad Magazine:
It was a cold winter day in Iowa as a long freight whistled for a crossing where an automobile had halted to let the approaching train go by. At the wheel was a Hawkeye lad with some visitors from the East. The outlanders asked the driver the name of the railroad, and he perfunctorily replied “Chicago Great Western.” They had never heard of that road and showed little interest. Presently the diesel locomotive thundered by – one unit, a second, a third, a fourth … Still the Easteners, used to seeing four-unit engines on the Pennsy and the New York Central, were unconcerned. But they rubbed their eyes in amazement when a fifth unit groaned by, then a sixth and a seventh. They had never seen anything like that. They started to count the cars, but after getting up to 150 they gave up.
Obviously a seven-unit diesel packing 10,500 hp. Is a rare sight anywhere. But five- and six-unit jobs are not uncommon, and long mainline freights are the rule, not the exception. They are just some of the distinguishing characteristics of this little-known 1400-mile railroad in the Midwest. Others would include radio-communication in cabs and cabooses and between trains and stations, modernized yards, new stations and complete dieselization of motive power. Small wonder on-line people refer to it as “amazing” Great Western.
Indeed, the whole history of the railroad is fraught with unusual and strong-willed men, men who pioneered in new developments such as the operation of rail-motor cars, train-plane coordination, modern shop facilities, truck-trailer hauling on flatcars, and widespread use of diesel power. Before going into the CGW’s colorful and checkered history, however, let us continue with the road as it is today. The Chicago Great Western is one of the so-called Granger roads, a Johnny-come-lately, serving Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri and to a very limited extent, Kansas and Nebraska, In nearly every other case well-entrenched trunk lines proceeded it in hotly competitive regions of the Midwest. Actually, however, its main lines compare favorably in regard to mileage.
The CGW has the shortest trackage between St. Paul and Omaha, the second shortest between the Twin Cities and Kansas City, and the third between the Twin Cities and Chicago. But is does not boast of CTC, and in most of its important metropolitan centers the road uses the tracks of other carriers. This, coupled with the fact that its territory is served by many larger and wealthier roads, makes the Corn Belt Route, as it was formerly called, vulnerable to competition. Take for example, between Chicago and the Twin Cities. There are four other roads competing for freight from the Windy City to Minneapolis-St. Paul. There is also a joint route via Albert Lea, Minnesota, making a fifth. In spite of this, CGW is rendering a good account of itself. While it may never be in the blue chip class, the road is probably in better financial shape than it has ever been. Physically, its main lines are in good condition, although some of its branches are somewhat run down. These, however, are being rehabilitated as time and finances permit.
Today the CGW is almost exclusively a freight road. Only the hearty, dyed-in-the-wool railfan would ever attempt to go from Chicago to the Twin Cities by this carrier. To begin with, the trains are local, all-coach night runs. On top of this there is a two hour layover at Oelwein, Ia., around midnight, no matter which direction you may be going. From the Twin Cities to Omaha, or to Kansas City, the service is without change; but it’s still a tedious night coach ride even if the cars are air-conditioned and the seats have antimacassars. All branch lines are entirely given over to freight.
(to be continued…)
A cannibal was walking through the jungle and came upon a restaurant opened by a fellow cannibal. Feeling somewhat hungry, he sat down and looked over the menu...
Broiled Missionary: $ 10.00 Fried Explorer: $ 15.00 Baked Politician: $ 100.00
The cannibal called the waiter over and asked, "Why such a price difference for the politician?"
The waiter replied, "Have you ever tried to clean one?"
Gents-with the permission of the house,I will make todays submission tomorrow-switched on the machine some hours ago but got caught up flirting with a sweet young thing of my aquaintance somewhere in N.Dakota (blame msn messenger and myspace........) have spent all day taking care of small demon Hannah`s b/day party -it`s now the wrong side of 2am and to be brutally honest I`m knackered -see you all tomorrow,take care now
nick
Well! You guys have been waiting and here it is.
Issue 3
Milwaukee Road News
The Famous Little Joe!
The little Joe as you all know was built for the Russains in 1946, built by General electric. Plans were given to build the loco and were completed in 1946. It was known as the Little Joe Stalin locomotive but was shortened to Little Joe. After the Cold war in 1945 and 46, Russia had become financially unfit with its economy shaken by WWll and were not able to purchase the 20 big locomotives. Plus the US banned all shipments to the Soviet Union and the orders were cancelled. So the locomotives sat in storage for a few years. It wasn't untill in 1949 and 1950 that the locomotive came up for sale. Very soon after the sale sign went up, the Milwaukee road, Chicago South Shore and South bend, and the Brazilian Palista railway, inquired on them! 12 were sold to the Milwaukee, 3 to the South shore and the remaining to the Palista railway. All were purchased in 1950.
These locos were classified as EF-4s. very simular to the clssification of the Box cabs, EF1, EF2, EF3 and EF5.
The locomotive took in 3000 volts DC electricity and put out 5500 horsepower. It was found through studies that the locomotive at times would beable to put out more than 8000 horsepower when at a starting force. Tractive effort was measured around 75,700 thousand pounds per square inch and would get a starting tractive effort of over 100,000 pounds psi. The locomotive rode a set of trucks with a 2-D-D-2 wheel arrangment. The two D trucks had 8 GE 750 traction motors that all took in 3000 volts DC. The locomotive weighed in at almost 250 tons. The locomotives numbers were E70-E81. E20-E21 were the passenger locos.
The twelve locos the milwaukee had were all used for frieght service at a given time. Two of them spent half there life taking on passenger trains. These were classified as EP-4s. These locomotives were equiped with steam generators and served the passenger service for a good 8 or so years. The passenger locos were numbered E20 and E21. The rear end controls (which ever end was chosen) were taken out to accommodate for the steam generator. The other feature that was presented with the passenger locomotive were its roller bearing trucks. This was for faster movements. The journals would overheat after a certain amount of time so the roller bearing was installed for this purpose.
This locomotive was used to replace the aging Boxcab with freight service. The box cab was later used for helper service, switching, and maintanence away trains. At the end of the elctrification era, the trains would usually have a 3 SD40-2s and a Little joe leading. The joes served a full 23 years before being retired and scrapped. The only serviving Milwaukee road Little joe is located out in Deer Lodge Monatana, #E70. A Chicago and South Shore and South bend Little joe has been restored up to running condition and is curtainly located at the Illinois railway museum in Illinois.
To run one of these living artifacts would have been a true treat. For me, if the Little joe in Illinois is truley operational, then someday, I am going to have to run that locomotive. There's no doubt about it. These locomotives will be remembered. Even though there is almost no trace of them running.
If there are any questions, or more info needed, just let me know.
Happy railroading
Even though the bar at "Our" Place is
Closed on Sundays -
We do observe Sunday Photo Posting Day!
G'day Gents!
Nice work from Lars today and alway enjoy those book cover submissions!
Here's something a bit different for the gang - railroad maps!
B&O from 1876
PRR from 1893
NYC in 1929
NYNH&H in the 1950s
AT&SF (vintage)
NP early 1900s
Enjoy!
Just about time to slip this in the mail slot before the sun goes down.
NICK hopefully my BR rail atlas will be arriving here soon and I will be able to give you some details on the South Wales Colliery lines I visited.
ROB Enjoyed the details on the old smooth bore and rifled muzzle loading muskets and the VIA pics.
DOUG What a great location for a railroad model layout, in the old sub-staion at ClintonvilleGreat pics and link of the layout, the roundhouse is great, shame about the mice. It would be another great place to visit in 2008 indeed..
JAMES that sounds a great video of the UP gas turbines. Looking forward to the Milwaukee news #3.
LARS The 1812 war looks more like a score draw to me( British soccer term). Anyway thanks for another great set of book covers.
TOM Another week of great films at the Emporium this week. I think the theme music on 633 Squadron was one of the best film scores ever..
NOW for Alan's pics.
loco # 99.582 on the Schonheide to Stutzengrun narrow gauge line
At the engine shed at Chemitz after the cavelcade .
The second pic is of a fireless loco. I believe they were knoen by a different name in N. America
This narrow gauge loco was giving rides behind the engine shed.
Hope you enjoy these Pete.
Greetings Cap'n Tom and fellow travelers waiting for the bar to open!
Nice movie selections for the week! Haven't seen either, or at least I don't recall viewing them. Sound like good entertainment. Think I'll start off with The Sea Wolves!
Hey Nick - to each his own. The ratings system bothers some of us and has no effect on others. So be it. I just don't care for the unwillingness of Kalmbach to remove those reminders from our most-negative-now-banned detractors living on and on and on. That's the only point as far as I'm concerned.
Good to see Doug back, if not for keeps, at least for awhile on Sunday. Makes it feel a bit like old times, huh Great model railroad layout and one that obviously took a great deal of time, effort and expense to put together. One of these days . . .
So, are we now fighting the War of 1812 here at the bar Of course Tom and I attended the same public school system in NYC, just a year or two apart. But, from what I've read and recall, the war was about Great Britain, not so much the land above the 49th. Although, yes, there were those who wanted to take the fight up there to knock off the British throughout north America. I never recall being taught anything regarding a war with Canada, as such. All news to me. I think that wikipedia Url pretty much sums it up quite nicely. Educational at that. RIP - it's over; kinda like the 2006 baseball season. Cards won - Mets didn't. The War of 1812 - US won, GB didn't.
Nice Via Rail reruns from Rob!
Let me end this nonsense with my weekly slate of bookcovers!
CLOSED on Sundays -
Now Playing at the Mentor Village Emporium Theatre!
. . . . Sunday, November 19th thru 25th: 633 Squadron (1964) Starring: Cliff Robertson, George Chakiris, Maria Perschy & Harry Andrews - and – The Sea Wolves (1981) Starring: Gregory Peck, David Niven, Roger Moore & Trevor Howard. SHORT: The Three Stooges - Wee Wee Monsieur (1938).
633 Squadron (1964)
PLOT SUMMARY: An RAF squadron is assigned to knock out a German rocket fuel factory in Norway,, which is part of the Nazi effort to launch rockets on England during D-day, by flying up a well-defended fjord at low level. 633 Squadron has enjoyed an unqualified string of successes. Their nearly impossible mission is further complicated by a German air raid, the difficult approach to the target and the capture and torture of the underground leader who is assisting the squadron.
An RAF squadron is assigned to knock out a German rocket fuel factory in Norway,, which is part of the Nazi effort to launch rockets on England during D-day, by flying up a well-defended fjord at low level. 633 Squadron has enjoyed an unqualified string of successes. Their nearly impossible mission is further complicated by a German air raid, the difficult approach to the target and the capture and torture of the underground leader who is assisting the squadron.
from: amazon.com
The Sea Wolves (1981)PLOT SUMMARY: This true story follows the exploits of a top secret British military mission to destroy Nazi radio ships in a neutral harbor during WWII. The daring plan is led by British Intelligence officers Col. Lewis Pugh (Gregory Peck) and Capt. Gavin Stewart (Roger Moore). Since the ships are in neutral territory the British Military command, while encouraging the scheme, must deny any knowledge of it if it fails. Pugh & Stewart enlist the aid of retired officer Col. Bill Grice (David Niven) & some of his former soldiers. On the pretext of being on a fishing expedition, these seemingly drunken old men in civilian clothing must board & destroy 3 Nazi ships, whose radio transmissions have resulted in Nazi submarines sinking allied ships. While Stewart arranges a diversion on shore, Pugh & Grice carry out the dangerous raid on and destruction of the Nazi ships.
This true story follows the exploits of a top secret British military mission to destroy Nazi radio ships in a neutral harbor during WWII. The daring plan is led by British Intelligence officers Col. Lewis Pugh (Gregory Peck) and Capt. Gavin Stewart (Roger Moore). Since the ships are in neutral territory the British Military command, while encouraging the scheme, must deny any knowledge of it if it fails. Pugh & Stewart enlist the aid of retired officer Col. Bill Grice (David Niven) & some of his former soldiers. On the pretext of being on a fishing expedition, these seemingly drunken old men in civilian clothing must board & destroy 3 Nazi ships, whose radio transmissions have resulted in Nazi submarines sinking allied ships. While Stewart arranges a diversion on shore, Pugh & Grice carry out the dangerous raid on and destruction of the Nazi ships.
from: imdb.com
SHORT: Wee Wee Monsieur (1938)PLOT SUMMARY: Featuring Moe, Larry & Curly The Stooges are artists living in Paris and owe many months back rent. They hope they sell a painting to pay off their debt. When their landlord threatens to kill them, they escape and hope to join the American Legion and go home. They accidentally join the French Foreign Legion. Their captain is kidnapped and they disguise as Santa Clauses to rescue him.
The Stooges are artists living in Paris and owe many months back rent. They hope they sell a painting to pay off their debt. When their landlord threatens to kill them, they escape and hope to join the American Legion and go home. They accidentally join the French Foreign Legion. Their captain is kidnapped and they disguise as Santa Clauses to rescue him.
from: threestooges.net
Sunday morning and it’s breakfast – lunch – brunch ‘til 2 PM here at the Tavern by the Tracks. Of course the bar is CLOSED ‘til tomorrow a 6 AM!
This is our Sunday Photo Posting Day! which has already begun, thanx to Rob ‘n Doug!
Acknowledgments to bring us up to date:
Pete at 3:34 & 3:45 PM yesterday: Good to see ya on a Saturday and appreciate the ENCORE! Doubt seriously that West Coast S Dave will ever see it! He’s long goooooooone and now a fixure in the “Legion of the Lost” alongside some other notables such as passengerfan Al, Theodorebear Ted and so forth.
Only suggestion I can offer regarding those Pix of mine that you had difficulty using is to ensure that when you transfer them – put the img /img in brackets BEFORE you paste in the URL. Confused Don’t be – it’s just one of those oddities of these new Forums that tends to waste our time, drive us to distraction (rather than drink! <grin>) and otherwise tick us off!
Nick at 7:19 PM yesterday: A rare treat indeed – figured you’d be out performing on and off the stage this weekend! Good to see ya with some fine contributions to our group.
Those models are from http://www.sierratoysoldier.com/ and are hardly mine! That’s one aspect of hobbying that I’m not into. Actually, my interests lie ONLY with model railroading when it comes to pissing away my time. <grin> A close 2nd would be spending far too much time at this keyboard. <right!>
Back to the model soldiers – I can recall seeing some truly elaborate set ups in the upscale stores in Manhattan way back when I was a kid. Those remembrances included wall-to-wall window displays of entire battlefields. Amazing – and of course the cost would gag a healthy maggot, I should think. Looks like a great hobby – but there IS a limit to the way the dwindling fortunes of yours truly get spent.
Something from the Ether: Caisson disease: A condition occurring as a result of exposure to a rapid fall in ambient pressure. Gases, nitrogen in particular, come out of solution and form bubbles in body fluid and blood. These gas bubbles accumulate in joint spaces and the peripheral circulation impairing tissue oxygenation causing disorientation, severe pain, and potentially death.
Caisson disease: A condition occurring as a result of exposure to a rapid fall in ambient pressure. Gases, nitrogen in particular, come out of solution and form bubbles in body fluid and blood. These gas bubbles accumulate in joint spaces and the peripheral circulation impairing tissue oxygenation causing disorientation, severe pain, and potentially death.
Ed-u-mah-ka-shun ‘r us!
In the butting in department: I think what Lars and others have been driving at is precisely what you have said. We have no interest in the ratings system – so why have it It becomes a nagging issue when one looks at these Threads to see see that there are obvious “blemishes” showing each time we log into the Forum. Why The guys who caused the crap apparently have had their IPOs blocked – so why then do the “blems” live on I can see your point of view – however, all of us CAN make a difference by letting the Forums Manager know how we feel. Get rid of the blasted ratings entirely.
James at 10:17 PM yesterday: We’ll be looking for your Little Joe feature today.
Rob at 12:21 & 12:31 AM today: As always, great to see ya again (even though you are supposed to be working when we have food service!)
Paid in Pesos sounds just about right to me – sorry, but you’ll have to take this up with the Manager – Senor Lars, mi amigo! <grin>
You do know that Wikipedia is a Euro-based outfit, eh I think they present some pretty decent and unbiased st
As you can imagine, it's difficult to photograph these layouts, and there were areas I couldn't get to because they were restricted to members only. There are 30 members in the club, and by the way, this spot could be a place we visit in 2008 if you wish. Two nights a week, the club opens its doors and allows the public to run the layout (for a donation).
See the engine house to the left of the roundhouse? A member lifted the roof so I could get shots of the interior. This was one of the original scratch-built buildings, and unfortunately, mice sleep in it.
The center layout has three levels
View all my pix at:
http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c330/Barndad/sunday%20photos/?start=0
View the club website at:
www.trainweb.org/vmrr
Recently an old Indian chief sat in his hut on the reservation, smoking a Ceremonial pipe and eyeing two U.S. Government officials sent by the President to interview him. "Chief Two Eagles" asked one official, "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done." The Chief nodded in agreement. The official continued, "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?" The Chief stared at the government officials for over a minute and then calmly replied . "When white man found the land, Indians were running it. No taxes, No debt, Plenty buffalo, Plenty beaver, Women did all the work, Medicine man free, Indian man spent all day hunting and fishing, All night making love." Then the chief leaned back and smiled . "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."
Good morning Tom and crew! I see that Rob beat me in this A.M., but left a coffee roll for me. Nice VIA shots sir! Looks like I'm back to trying to catch-up on reading here (as usual), but while my bride was at work yesterday, I snuck out to attend an open house at the Valley Model Railroaders building in South Elgin. I've been by it many a time and considered joining the club just as many times. Here’s a little about the location before I share some pictures:
From Third Rail to Bike TrailA short history written by Jeffrey S. Obarek
Next time you enjoy the Illinois Prairie Path let your mind think of another time in our not so distant past. This path that we use for riding our bikes and for walking was the domain of the Chicago Aurora and Elgin Railway. Clintonville Station is located along the Elgin branch which is on the north part of the wishbone extending from Wheaton. The southern part of the wishbone runs from Wheaton to Aurora. The mainline ran east from Wheaton to Wells Street Terminal in downtown Chicago. Part of this run went into the city via the Garfield Park elevated line. In September of 1953 the railroad's new east end terminal was located at Des Plaines Ave. in Forest Park. At Forest Park riders transferred to CTA rapid transit cars for the trip into Chicago. The trains of this high speed interurban line first incorporated as the Aurora Elgin and Chicago in 1902 began operating past this building on May 29,1903. The name of the railway was changed to the Chicago Aurora & Elgin Railroad under the reorganization of 1925.
Clintonville Substation was built in 1902 and put into service as a power distribution center to convert AC power to 600 volt DC needed to operate the trains which received this electric current via a third rail. Chicago Transit Authority "L" trains use this same electrical pick-up system to power their trains today. Electric power converted at this facility was also sold to several of the electric railroads in the area such as the Fox River Electric and the Elgin & Belvedere. Located on a lot south of the station was a small bungalow which served as the home for the station operator, who was responsible for making out train orders and maintaining the substation. A portion of the substation also served as a passenger waiting room from May of 1903 to the end of passenger service on July 3,1957. The electric generating equipment was located in the area now occupied by the club layout. The lower level of the building also housed electrical equipment. The passenger waiting area was located along the south wall and the doors onto the boarding platform were located on the east wall in the area now occupied by the club office. In 1949 the electrical generating equipment was relocated from Clintonville to a new facility in downtown Elgin along the CA&E right of way near the terminal at Chicago Ave. This left much of the main floor vacant. The Valley Model Railroaders moved into this building in 1953 leasing from the CA&E the portion which once housed the power generating equipment. Installation and enlarging of the layout that was started in 1949 at a smaller location in Elgin continued at Clintonville.
The model railroaders shared Clintonville Station with CA&E passengers until the 1957 passenger service abandonment. Freight trains continued to rumble past powered by electric locomotives until June of 1959 when all rail service was suspended. At that time all CA&E properties and assets where placed under the management of the Aurora Corporation of Illinois. The model railroaders paid the rent to this corporation until the station was placed under control of the Kane County Forest Preserve District sometime during the 1960’s. Part of our lease agreement with the forest preserve district is maintaining the building and payment of the utility bills. Look around and you will be able to see where the large windows were located. These were bricked in during the 1950's as a security measure.
1999 saw dramatic change within the walls of the station. The old layout was dismantled and the interior was painted by the club members to match the last exterior paint scheme applied to the CA&E cars in the early 1950’s. The club also installed new light fixtures and a drop ceiling at this time. By 2000 much of the new bench work was installed and the track and scenery was started. So we enter the 21st century and 100 years of history has passed into our personal and collective memories. And the next time you find yourself passing this old station platform let your minds eye wander and listen for the next train along the path going back.
So that’s the history of the station, and how it became the home for the Valley Model Railroaders. Now, let’s look inside!
A young boy's dog died. In order to try to console him, a preacher said, "Don't worry. Your dog is now with God."The boy said, "Why would God want a dead dog?"
Lets see early sunday so lets put out a couple early pix to get us rolling. I'll be out alot tomorow Heather's Dad's 70th is tomorrow.
VIA train 79 in Brantford sporting some of the fine Budd cars.
Via train 93 at Brantford
VIA train 94 sporting the Home hardware painted F40 at Bayview Junction
VIA train 79 at Brantford with the CBC anniversary F40 in the lead.
Just a couple VIA shots to get everyone into passenger train mood.
Enjoy Rob
Good evening Leon. I see that you saved a prime piece of cow for me Hows about a Keith's to wash it all down with oh and here's a bit more to cover a 'nother' for the late stragglers.
Tom-Good to read the Hertz article again to bad the VIA station in Brantford didn't have an outlet for Ted to use on his return trip to TOP last May though. Interesting URL again kinda shows that both sides of the boarder teach what they want ( route for the home side and all that ) Oh well makes for good fireside disscussions. Oh and mention to the mananger to stop paying me in peso's then Vito won't have to get his knickers in a knot
Pete-Nice to hear that there are other history buffs out and about, just erie about that article though. I wonder if they are reading our thread and comming up with topics If they are then wee are all definatly on the right track over here
Nick-The only difference I suppose is in my case it was too much work not enough sleep ( happens this time of year )Mind you in my twenties .... well lets just say we didn't pass u too amny taverns ( by the tracks or otherwise ) I don't play guitar but I do play the sax ( not well but it does make noise )Your re-enactor friends sound like some of the US Civil War type ones ( bit to much boom in the cannons once in a while ) Up hear things are very well controlled. The Brown Bess's we have are real in that if you wished to they could fire a live musket ball.We use half charges in the cartridges 1/8th once as opposed to a live warshot.More funky steam would be my requests for pictures tomorrow
Mike-Interesting urls as always. Loved the trolley line on the eads bridge ( go figure )
James-Good to hear about the Lil Joe article volume three should be a beaut tomorrow. One thinfg about 18th and 19th century warfare. The weapons of the day the muskets were very inaccurate. No rifling in the barrells therefore quantity of fire was more important than accuracy.A muskets effective range was 60 to 100 yards. At the max 100 yards a brown bess ( British pattern ) could penetrate the wool coat and leave a nasty hole remembering that a brown bess mosket ball was a quarter inch in diamater of soft lead. At 60 yards they would be deadly a ball hitting a joint would tend to crush the bones.The British practice was a regimental fire system standard line regiment was approx 800 men two ranks 400 in line. Front line would fire one volley than the back would after that they would fire by platoons approx 50 men at a time. Since the musket had no rifling each musket ball would go up down or off to the side never a straight line tragectory. So the volly firing ment that every single British regimmnet would throw out fire similar to a big massive shotgun.All Britsh regimnets were trained to stay in line and fire no less than three rounds a minute, most in fact could do four or five and incredible amount of fire when one conciders it's a muzzle loaded weapon !No other army ever truly matched this level of expertise on a consistant basis. When I was more active in the re-enactment gig I had myself to at least a three round a minute rate better if the weather was dry ( wet + black powder is a bad thing )here I am prattling along again oh well. Now one other side note the British light infantry regements ( The canadian Glengarry's for instance ) and the 95th reg and the 60th ( also known as the Royal American Rifles ) War the green and balck uniforms and were equiped with the Baker rifle, this was a rifled version of the brown bess, much more accurate a good riflemen could accuratly hit and kill a target at a good 4-500 yards. The Baker's used the same amunition as the brown bess but the cartirdges were leather instead of paper and ther was seven rifled grooves on the inside of the barrel. Still a muzzle loader and due to the rifling were slower to load at best three shots a minute. The rifle regimnets did not generally fight in the line formation, they moved out in front of the main lines and scirmished with the enemy light tropps between the lines , fought in pairs one man fired and covered while his partner reloaded, their main targets were the officers and sgt's in the enemies lines.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter