Trains.com

Mysterious 460 supplied to Indochina Railways by Mitsui in 1916

2015 views
4 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2021
  • 6 posts
Posted by Janez on Sunday, August 22, 2021 6:21 AM

So Mitsui was only involved in trading Alco locomotives strictly for Japan only despite having offices all over Asia including Indochina ?

https://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/file.php?1,file=77001,in_body_attachment=1

 

 

  SHOP YEAR TYPE FIRST OWNER ROAD # SECOND OWNER
37563 Rog 1907 4-4-0 Mitsui & Co. 50 South Manchurian Railway
37564 Rog 1907 4-4-0 Mitsui & Co. 51 South Manchurian Railway
37565 Rog 1907 4-4-0 Mitsui & Co. 52 South Manchurian Railway
37566 Rog 1907 4-4-0 Mitsui & Co. 53 South Manchurian Railway
50769 Sch 1912 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 620 (South Manchuria China)
50770 Sch 1912 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 621 (South Manchuria China)
50771 Sch 1912 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 622 (South Manchuria China)
50772 Sch 1912 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 623 (South Manchuria China)
50773 Sch 1912 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 624 (South Manchuria China)
51943 Rog 1912 2-6-2t Mitsui & Co. 00 Yokohoma Railway
54775 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 271  
54776 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 272  
54777 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 273  
54778 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 274  
54779 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 275  
54780 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 276  
54781 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 277  
54782 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 278  
54783 Sch 1914 4-6-0 Mitsui & Co. 279  
55000 Cooke 1915 2-8-2 Mitsui & Co. 180 Pekin Kalgon
55033 Sch 1915 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 12  
55034 Sch 1915 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 13  
55035 Sch 1915 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 14  
55036 Sch 1915 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 15  
55249 Cooke 1916 0-4-0t Mitsui & Co. 00 Nippon Seikosho Railway
56495 Brks 1916 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 250 Shantung Railway
56496 Brks 1916 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 251 Shantung Railway
56497 Brks 1916 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 252 Shantung Railway
56979 Cooke 1917 0-4-0t Mitsui & Co. 00 Mitsubishi Dock Yard
56980 Cooke 1917 0-4-0t Mitsui & Co. 00 Imperial Japanese Navy Yard
56981 Cooke 1917 0-4-0t Mitsui & Co. 00 Imperial Japanese Navy Yard
55428 Cooke 1918 0-4-0t Mitsui & Co. 00 Kajima Coal Mines
55429 Cooke 1918 0-4-0t Mitsui & Co. 00 Kajima Coal Mines
58283 Cooke 1918 2-6-2t Mitsui & Co. 1  
59289 Pgh 1918 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 253 Shantung Railway
59290 Pgh 1918 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 254 Shantung Railway
59990 Pgh 1919 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 255?? Shantung Railway
59991 Pgh 1919 2-8-0 Mitsui & Co. 256?? Shantung Railway
59090 Cooke 1918 0-4-0t Mitsui Co. 00 Kure Navy Yard (Imperial Japanese Navy)

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,303 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, August 21, 2021 12:30 PM

Janez
So I am looking for Baldwin delivery list data for Mitsui for 1916 or a bit earlier.

I'm pretty sure Mitsui, rapidly growing to become Japan's largest zaibatsu, would not have ordered locomotives from Baldwin to re-ship to Indochina -- but Mitsubishi was founded as a 'trading' house and I believe was primarily in that line and not heavy construction until fairly late.

The combine was broken up during the Allied occupation of Japan but it's possible that records of the transaction exist.  If those are located it could probably be determined if the locomotives were either sourced from Baldwin for resale or assembled 'under license' with either Baldwin erecting plans or the aid of Baldwin parts.

  • Member since
    May 2021
  • 6 posts
Posted by Janez on Saturday, August 21, 2021 7:38 AM

 

Well, there are a few fringe locos that J.D.H.Smith didn't mention on CFI.

 

This one was not a big player with only three on the roster.

 

Fives-Lilles was almost twice the weight .

 

I managed to drop out the “Baldwin” name earlier:

 

 There were a lot similarish 460s sold to different Brazilian railways by Baldwin in those times, so maybe this one could be related ?

 

 

So I am looking for Baldwin delivery list data for Mitsui for 1916 or a bit earlier.

1916 was in the middle of WW1 in Europe, so European suppliers are pretty unlikely , German suppliers were on the wrong side of the front and French would not use Mitsui to buy a European product.

 

 

 

Brazilian 460 meter gauge links

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Brazil&wheel=4-6-0&railroad=bam

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,303 posts
Posted by Overmod on Friday, August 20, 2021 11:08 AM

J.D.H.Smith doesn't even mention a class 230.100.  It might be interesting to compare numbers with the Fives-Lille 230.001 which are footnoted as being similar to Indonesian locomotives.

What are the references for Japanese-sourced Brazilian steam in that era?

  • Member since
    May 2021
  • 6 posts
Mysterious 460 supplied to Indochina Railways by Mitsui in 1916
Posted by Janez on Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:01 PM

 

Hi,

 

 

We are a small group of expats living in Vietnam and are working on a website about the history of the railways of Indochina & Vietnam and are of course struggling with incomplete locomotive rosters and general lack of documentation not to mention actual "specimens"etc. etc.

 

  One of the mysteries is a meter gauge (very light) 460 locomotive (3 pcs ) that were supplied to CF Indochine by Mitsui company in 1916.

 

  (None of the locomotives survived and so far no photo found. )

 

 460 by Mitsui to CFI in 1916

 

 on Flickr

 

 There were a lot similarish 460s sold to different Brazilian railways in those times, so maybe this one could be related ?

 

 And you are of course welcome to explore the biggest ever Indochina/Vietnam collection of railway related photos and infos on

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/189316830@N03/

 

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter