NKP guy Flintlock76 Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to Years ago a New York City woman of about 50 asked my friend where he was from. When he replied Dubuque, Iowa she laughed and said, "We pronounce it Ohio here." New Yorkers are sometimes very provincial people themselves.
Flintlock76 Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to
Years ago a New York City woman of about 50 asked my friend where he was from. When he replied Dubuque, Iowa she laughed and said, "We pronounce it Ohio here."
New Yorkers are sometimes very provincial people themselves.
They can be brother.
Ever see that "New Yorker" magazine cover (made into a famous poster) where New York City prominantly occupies most of the foreground, and in great detail, but the rest of the country shrinks to insignificance west of the Hudson River?
Certainly meant as a joke, but remember, for joke to be funny it has to have a grain of truth to it.
Found it.
http://www.mappingthenation.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Rumsey-Steinberg-New-Yorker-1976.jpg
Seeing my native New Jersey reduced to a miserable strip makes me want to do THIS...
https://www.njpalisades.org/images/fortleeCannon.jpg
OOO-RAH! And don't think that 32-pounder wouldn't hit the city either!
Flintlock76Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to
Great stuff Becky! Thanks a lot!
You know, there's a lesson in all this. As railfans we can get fixated on our own neck of the woods to the exclusion of others and lose sight of the fact there's a whole lot of ralroadin' world out there, not just trains but architecture as well. I'm ashamed to admit I never would have thought Cleveland had such structures in and around it. Not that I'm an East Coast snob mind you, I've driven this country from New Jersey to California and seen a lot, but it never entered my mind.
Flintlock76 The bottom of that Detroit-Superior bridge! Wow, what fantastic iron work! A work of art in its own right. Just look at it! I just don't have the words. As amazing as any of the lost Seven Wonders.
The bottom of that Detroit-Superior bridge! Wow, what fantastic iron work! A work of art in its own right. Just look at it! I just don't have the words.
As amazing as any of the lost Seven Wonders.
This is what the best part looked like:
This next one always makes me think of Jimmy Stewart.
And this one makes me think of Sinatra.
This is one of my favorites:
I couldn't find a photo but rumor has it acrophobes were well advised to keep their eyes inside the car while passing over the steel arch section as there were only ties between you and the river 90 feet below!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
BaltACD Penny Trains Thanks! I tip-toed through my photo box today and enhanced a few more. ... I'm not sure which railroad owned this bridge but Whiskey Island and the Pennsy Huletts are off to the right (out of frame) so it could have been theirs: And I decided to rescan these two and see if I could punch them up a bit: B&O had 3 Bascule rolling lift drawbridges in Cleveland. Bridge 460 at the North end of B&O's Clark Ave. Yard. Bridge 463 & Bridge 464 were about a block apart, and were operated by the same individual, on the B&O line to the interchange with the NYC at Whiskey Island. It was less than 50 car lengths between the North End of Bridge 464 and the entrance to the Whiskey Island interchange track - each track holding 35 cars and when the B&O engine pulled the last cut of a 100 car coal train into the interchange, they had to get permission from the NYC Operator at Drawbridge to open the switch at the West end of the interchange and use the NYC Main to run back to the East end and clear back into B&O trackage - Permission could not be grated until the last Controlled Signal on that track had been set to stop - That Controlled Signal was at Elyria - it could take HOURS to get the engines back on B&O track.
Penny Trains Thanks! I tip-toed through my photo box today and enhanced a few more. ... I'm not sure which railroad owned this bridge but Whiskey Island and the Pennsy Huletts are off to the right (out of frame) so it could have been theirs: And I decided to rescan these two and see if I could punch them up a bit:
Thanks!
I tip-toed through my photo box today and enhanced a few more.
...
I'm not sure which railroad owned this bridge but Whiskey Island and the Pennsy Huletts are off to the right (out of frame) so it could have been theirs:
And I decided to rescan these two and see if I could punch them up a bit:
B&O had 3 Bascule rolling lift drawbridges in Cleveland. Bridge 460 at the North end of B&O's Clark Ave. Yard. Bridge 463 & Bridge 464 were about a block apart, and were operated by the same individual, on the B&O line to the interchange with the NYC at Whiskey Island. It was less than 50 car lengths between the North End of Bridge 464 and the entrance to the Whiskey Island interchange track - each track holding 35 cars and when the B&O engine pulled the last cut of a 100 car coal train into the interchange, they had to get permission from the NYC Operator at Drawbridge to open the switch at the West end of the interchange and use the NYC Main to run back to the East end and clear back into B&O trackage - Permission could not be grated until the last Controlled Signal on that track had been set to stop - That Controlled Signal was at Elyria - it could take HOURS to get the engines back on B&O track.
OK. So then what I captured was both B&O bridges on the west bank? In the "rowing" photo you can see the tip of the bridge by Shooter's poking up above the power house.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This is the bottom of the steel arch portion of the Detroit-Superior bridge before the remodel:
Tower City Center fka Cleveland Union Terminal:
The as yet unnamed Gateway project soon to be known as Jacobs Field:
Flintlock76 That illustration of the engineer oiling the kid's toy locomotive could have been used for a pre-war Lionel catalog cover, or an American Flyer one for that matter! And you did pretty good with that "cheapo Kodak 35mm" Becky! A professional photographer told me years ago that the camera isn't as important as the skill of the person using it is. You can own the most expensive camera in the world but if you don't know what you're doing with it, what good is it?
That illustration of the engineer oiling the kid's toy locomotive could have been used for a pre-war Lionel catalog cover, or an American Flyer one for that matter!
And you did pretty good with that "cheapo Kodak 35mm" Becky! A professional photographer told me years ago that the camera isn't as important as the skill of the person using it is. You can own the most expensive camera in the world but if you don't know what you're doing with it, what good is it?
Exactly. I miss my "cheapo Kodak", and the exciting moment when I got the photos and processed films back from the camera shop. : )
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
If you guys like Railroad Stories covers, check out these 2 databases: http://www.magazineart.org/main.php/v/pulpspecialized/railroad/
https://pulpcovers.com/?s=railroad+stories
I print them out and hang them on my bedroom walls along with framed tin signs. These are the Christmas versions, there are also summer pics: an SP cab forward, an engineer oiling a boy's toy locomotive and Hulett unloaders.
I alter the covers so they have the same matching red header. The summer pics have blue backgrounds.
Jones1945Stunning capture and composition, Becky! The shadow on the river, the rowing boat, the boat that was saluting, and the B&O Cuyahoga River Bridge; I love how you "skipped" the tip of the bridge for a better composition, which nicely moved the focus to the boats a bit. Before the introduction of the digital camera, we have to carry several rolls of films before leaving home for events or traveling, and we have to make fast decisions to capture the best picture within a short period of time with limited films available, that really require skills. : )
This one was my favorite from that roll:
I did the MS walk in 1993 and of course I took my trusty cheapo 35mm Kodak along. (I think it was a freebie from a gas station or something! But it took pretty darn good photos for a point and shoot! )
Aftyer the walk they treated us to a concert by Beatles tribute band "1964" at the Nautica Amphitheater, that white tent in the center. Great show!
Perhaps to maintain order and protect property from a violent strike.
Hard to believe that S2 has such a short life. It has been put forth it could have been successful in time. It's issues could have been worked out given time and desire but by then the Diesels doomed it anyway. I understand it sucked water out of the tender at an alarming rate, besides Westinghouse wanted their turbine back.
I wonder if we will ever see a 4-12-2 restored to operation. Just never know how.. never say never.
As for the Mounties (RCMP) they certainly do have very high standards and are our police force here in Saskatchewan. Once in a while, here and there, you see a few of them in their Red Serge. Quite stunning.
Speaking of quite stunning I've been wearing my 'Miners Dig Deep' T shirt today. A colleague stated " you look like a Hell's Angel".. wasn't quite sure how to take that.
Miningman Our Mounties are the best! Didn't think I'd ever have 2 Mounties in my back yard at 4 am with two hands on their pistols pointed as they approached the garage door last Saturday, but hey, they learned from this guy! So while we're on the subject of guns .. "take out your ticket nice and slow there fella". I never quite realized just how massive that S2 was. Look at the size of the people! Ditto the Union Pacific 'Union Pacific' type 4-12-2. Again look at the size of that fella walking alongside and the railroader oiling around standing on the cowcatcher. Geology I Mid Term tomorrow, 3 hour exam. I'll be wearing my Tshirt that is the Avatar I use on this Forum. ( over a turtleneck, too darn cold otherwise). Mining I was held on Tuesday this week. They are still reeling the poor featherless goslings. They'll be ok... in time.
Our Mounties are the best! Didn't think I'd ever have 2 Mounties in my back yard at 4 am with two hands on their pistols pointed as they approached the garage door last Saturday, but hey, they learned from this guy!
So while we're on the subject of guns .. "take out your ticket nice and slow there fella".
I never quite realized just how massive that S2 was. Look at the size of the people!
Ditto the Union Pacific 'Union Pacific' type 4-12-2. Again look at the size of that fella walking alongside and the railroader oiling around standing on the cowcatcher.
Geology I Mid Term tomorrow, 3 hour exam. I'll be wearing my Tshirt that is the Avatar I use on this Forum. ( over a turtleneck, too darn cold otherwise). Mining I was held on Tuesday this week. They are still reeling the poor featherless goslings. They'll be ok... in time.
Great shots!
Picture one. What can I say, it takes real class to go into action wearing your "Dress Reds!" Got to love the Mounties, some of the best cops in the world!
Picture two. Hmm, those guys mean business! Must be an important shipment coming in or the railroad pay train. Let's see, that looks like a good ol' Winchester '94 "Thirty-thirty" the guy in front is holding. The other two are holding what I think are tear gas guns. The man on the left looks like he's got a belt full of gas grenades as well.
Pictures three and four. It always astounds me, although it shouldn't by this time, just how massive railroad locomotives can be. Ever stand next to a Big Boy or a C&O Allegheny? The size of those things will take your breath away in a way a diesel never could.
The Abraham Lincoln was built to run on the Alton, B&O-controlled at the time. The trainset was one of two built for the B&O in 1935, the other was the Royal Blue for a whiile before it, too, ended up on the Alton, without the EMC. Both of the photos are of the same unit, B&O 50. The nose was altered later. B&O 50 still exists at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis.
Santa Fe's two Super Chief units were rebuilt in very different ways. Number 1 ("Amos", of "Amos and Andy") was rebuilt into the odd shape shown above, and retrucked to 1B-1B, as was 1A ("Andy") renumbered 10. The beetle brow was basically an air scoop. Both were rebuilt into freight locomotives with B-B Blomberg trucks in 1948, as 2610 and 2611.
Flintlock76 Those B&O and Santa Fe diesels? Well what can we say? They were still a function looking for their form back then. The head-end crews weren't too crazy about them either, there wasn't 50 feet of boiler up front giving them any kind of collision protection. A bit unnerving if you hadn't started out as a trolley, interurban, or subway train driver.
Those B&O and Santa Fe diesels? Well what can we say? They were still a function looking for their form back then.
The head-end crews weren't too crazy about them either, there wasn't 50 feet of boiler up front giving them any kind of collision protection. A bit unnerving if you hadn't started out as a trolley, interurban, or subway train driver.
I thought she actually hit something thus the funny flat nose..... I can't remember if I have seen a brass train of this one......
Penny Trains Speaking of Bob Hope, I sat in front of the building on the far right in the pic below in 1996 for Cleveland's Bicentennial Celebration:
Speaking of Bob Hope, I sat in front of the building on the far right in the pic below in 1996 for Cleveland's Bicentennial Celebration:
Stunning capture and composition, Becky! The shadow on the river, the rowing boat, the boat that was saluting, and the B&O Cuyahoga River Bridge; I love how you "skipped" the tip of the bridge for a better composition, which nicely moved the focus to the boats a bit. Before the introduction of the digital camera, we have to carry several rolls of films before leaving home for events or traveling, and we have to make fast decisions to capture the best picture within a short period of time with limited films available, that really require skills. : )
Miningman Considering those horrid gigantic potholes in the road I think the streetcar is preferable to sacrificing your vehicle.
Considering those horrid gigantic potholes in the road I think the streetcar is preferable to sacrificing your vehicle.
I would have picked the streetcar instead of driving if there were streetcar serving between my office and my home in the downtown, even though there weren't that many potholes in the road. Imagine after a day of hard work, you finally relieved and met some familiar faces, good friends on the streetcar, it would be like an after-work party! The streetcar could be crowded, but it helped people who took them every day or every other day to save a lot of money. And if you love streetcar, every ride is priceless.
Miningman I never quite realized just how massive that S2 was. Look at the size of the people!
She was 16 ft tall, almost 2 ft taller than a London Routemaster double-decker bus. Folks were facing to the 1500hp reverse turbine housing and 68" drivers.
OTOH, EMD hadn't yet learned their lesson on how to provide cooling air for the radiators with the very first E's (E for eighteen hunder horsepower).
Agreed Peter. That Santa Fe treatment is, well, embarrassing.
Miningman 6) The B&O Abraham Lincoln. Kinda strange looking really. My understanding is that it did not pan out to well as account of a rough ride and not up to B&O's standards. They spun it off to B&O controlled Alton.
6) The B&O Abraham Lincoln. Kinda strange looking really. My understanding is that it did not pan out to well as account of a rough ride and not up to B&O's standards. They spun it off to B&O controlled Alton.
Of course it looked like this new....
I think B&O's solution was better than that of ATSF...
MidlandMike Penny Trains Penny Trains wrote the following post 3 hours ago: MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat. Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch: For comparison, the Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River built about the same time had 152' clearance. Maybe the low clearance of the Cleveland bridges had already been set in earlier years. The other 2 big bridges, Blue Water and Mackinac, were also in the 150' range. However, the Soo bridge was only 124'.
Penny Trains Penny Trains wrote the following post 3 hours ago: MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat. Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch:
For comparison, the Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River built about the same time had 152' clearance. Maybe the low clearance of the Cleveland bridges had already been set in earlier years. The other 2 big bridges, Blue Water and Mackinac, were also in the 150' range. However, the Soo bridge was only 124'.
Yeah, but those waterways are much more navigable for much longer distances than the Cuyahoga River. The Cuyahoga is only navigable for 5 miles (8km) from it's mouth to what is currently the ArcelorMittal Steel Works at a dredged depth of 27 feet (8.2m). (This was the Republic mill in case anyone's wondering.)
Here's our local ore freighter museum:
By JuanPDP - Own work, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1168122
By Laszlo Ilyes from Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Take a Bow, CC BY 2.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1981815
1) Busy time in Field, BC. I count six active steam locomotives. Perhaps there are others. That's a lot of crews.
2) Still in the mountains. Newly painted power in the old colours is looking mighty fine. A great look with the 'action red' containers.
3) In between the first pic 'then' and the one above 'now' we had a mix of colour schemes and builders. FM/CLC CLiner leading an interesting mix of power now vanished.
4) Oil from Wainwright Alberta's oil fields being shipped by rail in the 1920's. Wainwright is on the CNR mainline and the CNR was both a shipper and consumer of oil from the Wainwright and Lloydminster oil fields.
Alberta, and all the West, may have to revert to this practice considering the Federal Government's current stated policies.
5) Streetcars in Ottawa. Now there is an Ottawa streetcar thread here on Classic, but draw your attention to the Classic Woolworth store ( no longer with us) and the Laura Secord chocolate shop ( still with us). Considering those horrid gigantic potholes in the road I think the streetcar is preferable to sacrificing your vehicle.
7) Nice painting eh? When steam was King! Tugboats, ships, locomotives!
Penny TrainsPenny Trains wrote the following post 3 hours ago: MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat. Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch:
Thanks for those impressive photos Becky, and I wholeheartedly concur with Mr. Jones, Cleveland doesn't have to take a back-seat to anyone when it comes to the magnificence of its railroad architecture!
MidlandMike I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat.
I wonder how high that bridge is above the Cuyhahoga River? It does not look like it would clear a Great Lake boat.
Wikipedia entry says the clearance is 96 feet. That's in the center of the steel arch:
By Michael Barera, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=42627073
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit%E2%80%93Superior_Bridge
By the way on November 11th 1989 it was officially renamed the "Veterans Memorial Bridge". Not to be confused with the Hope Memorial Bridge, formerly the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge it's neighbor to the east:
By Jet Lowe - This image is available from the United States Library of Congress's Prints and Photographs divisionunder the digital ID hhh.oh0101.This tag does not indicate the copyright status of the attached work. A normal copyright tag is still required. See Commons:Licensing for more information., Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1071290
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_Memorial_Bridge
Local legend is mixed on just who or whom the bridge was renamed for in 1983. Many Clevelanders assume it's for Leslie Townes "Bob" Hope who grew up on the east side. Others claim it's for his father, William Henry "Harry" Hope who was a stonemason and helped erect the "Guardians of Traffic", one of which was supposed to contain an entrance stairway to the subway deck on the bridge's lower level. The subway expansion never happened but the rail deck was built.
By Carptrash at the English language Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=16311846
Colored floodlights were installed on all of the big bridges.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomsheridan/16194032778/in/photostream/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/188517934372348793/
Bob and Delores Hope sailed by in a glass box enclosure on the deck of a small ship. I don't know if this is their boat or not, but it looks like what I remember.
https://rinestock.com/studio-b/
Here's a bit of video I found from local TV:
The compression of the sound will give you a bit of an earache though.
Cleveland gets a bad rap because of this 1952 photo:
https://www.wired.com/2011/06/0622cleveland-cuyahoga-river-fire-burns-again/
To keep it short, Time magazine ran a story using this 1952 photo to illustrate an article about a small railroad bridge fire that occurred on June 22nd 1969. In fact the fire was sparked by molten metal from a slag car running at the mill and the bridge and only the bridge caught fire. The river did not spontaineously combust as most believe.
But, the article was included in THE best selling issue of Time magazine of all time: the one that included coverage of the flight of Apollo 11!
Penny Trains The river view is enhanced a bit because of the fact that the terminal complex is about 90 feet above river level: That's the 3,112 foot long Detroit Superior bridge which had Cleveland's subway tracks on it's lower level. I took this pic in 1993 shortly before it was renovated. If you look carefully you can see the CUT now RTA Cuyahoga Viaduct and one of it's distinctive catenary bridges through the arches. You can also see the Rockefeller Building peeking through the tree on the left edge.
The river view is enhanced a bit because of the fact that the terminal complex is about 90 feet above river level:
That's the 3,112 foot long Detroit Superior bridge which had Cleveland's subway tracks on it's lower level. I took this pic in 1993 shortly before it was renovated. If you look carefully you can see the CUT now RTA Cuyahoga Viaduct and one of it's distinctive catenary bridges through the arches. You can also see the Rockefeller Building peeking through the tree on the left edge.
Impressive infrastructure! It seems to me that Cleveland is quite underrated; the size of the city is not the largest in Ohio, but she has all these magnificent bridges and skyscrapers that people can't find in other much larger cities. Spectacular buildings like the Cuyahoga Viaduct, deserve even more international exposure. : )
Love those photos Vince! Let me see here...
Photo one, good old Starucca Viaduct. Makes me pine for the "days when" all right!
HAIL CAESAR! Yep, when the designer of the viaduct needed something that would work, well, what better than a Roman aqueduct for inspiration? Starucca's still there, doing what it was meant to do.
Photo three. That RS-2 paint scheme looks strikingly similar to the first Susquehanna RS-1 scheme. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Have a look. http://archive.atlasrr.com/Images/HOLocomotives/hors1/7123.jpg
Photo five. I don't know, that trestle looks pretty well built. I don't think an engineer would have any hesitation about running over it. But if I was a brakeman and someone told me to climb the cars in a howling blizzard running over that trestle I'd have two words for him, and they wouldn't be "Yes sir!"
Interestingly, veteran railroader and rail writer Bill Knapke (He started railroading in the 1880's!) said that stopping a freight train of the late 19th Century, like the one pictured, wasn't all that difficult. What they did was load the caboose heavily with ballast to increase it's weight, then chain the brakes of the last freight car to the caboose brakes. When the engineer whistled "Down brakes!" tightening the caboose brake wheel was enough to slow and stop the train, assuming the engineer was doing his part on the head end. But as Bill said, you could only get away with this on the relatively short freight trains of the time.
Penny Trains Miningman 5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary. How about the brakemen? Jumping from car to car with a brake club in hand in a raging blizzard! Yikes! I'm glad it was saved but I would have loved to live in it right where it was!
Miningman 5) A bridge that SD70DUDE would be familiar with, at least historically. How would you like to be the engineer back in the day, crossing in high winds and snow with a couple of hundred people in the coaches your locomotive is pulling. Yikes! Between Edmonton and Calgary.
How about the brakemen? Jumping from car to car with a brake club in hand in a raging blizzard! Yikes!
I'm glad it was saved but I would have loved to live in it right where it was!
I've always loved those old-style stations with a Witch's hat. While a different design, the old brick CP station at South Edmonton still exists, and has host a succession of nightclubs and bars since being vacated by the railroad.
The Duhamel trestle was located just southwest of Camrose, AB, where the GTP's Edmonton-Calgary line crossed the Battle River, which is in a very deep, wide valley that was carved by a glacial outburst flood approximately 10,000 years ago. Like many pioneer bridges it was built out of untreated timber, and did not last.
After Canadian National was formed the stretch of ex-GTP track from Duhamel to Barlee Jct (north Camrose) was abandoned, and all trains moved to the ex-Canadian Northern line that is still in operation today. A short connecting line (Ferlow Jct Cutoff) was built east from Duhamel to connect the southern half of the ex-GTP line to the ex-CNoR track, allowing the abandonment of the now-rotting trestle.
The Camrose area at the time of CN's formation:
https://railways.library.ualberta.ca/Maps-9-1-7/
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
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