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Third Avenue Lightweight Streetcars

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Thursday, October 13, 2022 1:27 PM

Dave - I have been over this ad- infinatum with you on my previous msg reply to you on this matter. -- re: the ERA TARS Map.  YOU took (or claim to ??) that photo of Trolley 324 at Mount Vernon (that you first claimed, totally wrong, as I proved then,  was in the Bronx, E.163rd St & Westchester Ave!!) --- so YOU do your own research to find out WHERE you stood at, and where,  that intersection is (with the stores, etc) on the Mount Vernon "A" Trolley TARS Route. The Map actual "mileage and footage" format is severely "compressed" to conserve paper space for compact illustration purposes.  As far as what exists NOW vs: then in the area of that route --- obviously ALL vestigates of the trolley route and tracks are long gone -- so the ERA map is the only clue to its reality.  Also some of the street names have been changed since the era the map version depicts long ago.  There is a commercial area along that route (if you do the google maps "drive along" tedious process for the whole route --- that could be where the corner stores once were and are gone now, replaced with new "modern" structures.  I don't know.  If you took that photo, then YOU were there I expect back then.  You research its location !  Sorry, but I have more important matters to attend to, otherwise.

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Thursday, October 13, 2022 2:02 PM

Dave -- I explained IN DETAIL to you - in private email and HERE  also about this "other" clock.  Again, this clock was removed, destroyed when the entire block was torn down (E.85th north to E.86th Sts.)  around 1963-4, for construction of the huge Park Lane Towers (aka Jeffersons TV Show Building !) opened in 1967.  The "Yorkville Clock" got so named in the late 1970's because it was the ONLY remaining Victorian era street clock on 3rd Ave in Yorkville section after 1963.  Owned by Sterns Jewelers & Pawn Shop (whom I knew back then) and when they sold their property, new owners neglected the clock which finally ceased to operate mechanically.  In 1980's I think -- a movement developed to save and restore the clock -- which took place.  It was removed to Long Island,  completely restored and re-installed on its base on the sidewalk a year or so later.  Christened the Yorkville Clock. 

OK -- below is a 1953 aerial photo I have in the area where I lived and the EL and where the BOTH Clocks existed.  (E. 84 & E.85th Streets area) .  On that aerial photo I marked the location of BOTH clocks along the EL on 3rd Ave,  marked the E. 84th St EL Station,  marked my own home (apartment house) and etc.  This may be better able to inform you.  Hope so !  regards - Joe F

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 7:44 PM

Thanks.   Great job.   Keep it up.

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Thursday, October 13, 2022 10:13 PM

Thank you also Dave -- glad to have solved the two clock mystery and their locations for you. Its been 70 + years now!   Agreed, the west side of avenue clock at E. 85 St was far more ornate and had a bigger clock-face-head area. Too bad it was trashed with the block demolition in 1963. But hey, I wasn't much focusing intently on those clocks way back then -- just the stores & shops, the EL and my EL Station, and the EL trains. All of which I used and frequented !   The 2 clocks were like the lamp posts, traffic signal posts, street signs,  -- just street furniture !

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 14, 2022 1:24 AM

Thank you for constructive help.

I don't blame you in any way for the problems in receiving email from you.  For example, a very close friend, one who truly saved my life at one point, has sent URLs on material in the New York Times and the New Yorker on NYC's Geffin Hall, which I had worked to assist Columbia U. Professor Cyril Harris with a sound system design to complemant and fit his room-acoustics and noise control designs, some 50 years ago.  (Dr. Harris had a "Profile" in the New Yorker. titled "The Quiet Man.")  So, of couse I was interested in how the new modifications turned out.  But the server won't let me pull up those articles.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 14, 2022 1:25 AM

At 90+ my memory may not be perfect.  I believe I quickly was told or realized the Main St. P:elhsam photo couldv not br in The Bronx and was the first to research, via the ERA track-map, the correct location.  Joe. you must have seen the Westchester Avenue (Bronx) location attribution during the short time that the error existed.  I never suggested south Mt. Vernon. I use the Forum to share my very young days' memories with others and try to refrain from criticizing others. 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Friday, October 14, 2022 2:10 AM

Dave -- be aware that 2 of those sites with the urls' you mentioned are PAY WALL SITES -- they want you to subscribe and buy their newspapers in order to see anything on line they offer.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 14, 2022 7:09 AM

The server does  not let me get that far, "Page not available"   All three.

Do you want me to delete all my "clock" postings?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 14, 2022 7:24 AM

Regarding the further improvenent in 187 on Westchester, leaving both on the thread lets each reader judge individuazlly.

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Friday, October 14, 2022 8:25 AM

Hello Dave 

NO -- I emailed-wrote to you last night that you could leave the Clock with the EL pictures you posted (from the one I emailed you)  intact on the forum. Its an interesting nostalgia shot of what is now all gone. So leave them as they are.

Regards - Joe F

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 15, 2022 12:52 PM

Thanks.  OK to correct for all three balls the same?

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Saturday, October 15, 2022 1:22 PM

Yes Dave -- whatever looks best to complete that detail --that's all .....

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 16, 2022 2:23 AM

Three New Rochelle rainy-day fan-trip photos, the second car an ex-Manhattan car. one photo at the railroad station.  At the Post-Office location, there was an unused track straight ahead where 121 is shown turning left.

Joe, even if I were not 90 and somewhat Mobility-reduced, and even if I had the state-of-the-art computer equipment and server that you have, a half-a-day off would come nowhere to allow me to just ride the "2" subway train to East 241st Street and ride the bus to New Rochelle.  You can do it and note the facts.  And you can return either by bus and subway or by the New Haven Division Metro North.

   

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Monday, October 17, 2022 7:34 AM

Dave -- I have my own aggravating medical issues ongoing now and that is not even a remote possibility for me -- time wise, energy wise, health-wise and expsense-wise. For just a lark trip at that.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 17, 2022 11:21 AM

I understand. For me the main issue was settled by the ERA map and still is.  Perhaps you have a younger and trustworthy raifan friend who can enjoy ther idea of taking the bus ride and settl.ing the questions concerning the changes? 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 17, 2022 12:09 PM

And should I pray for your health?

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 17, 2022 3:20 PM

Regarding ERA trackmaps.  From a friend wo volunteers  regularly bat the ERA office:

The ERA hasn’t had any maps for sale in decades. One of my goals for the ERA is to archivally scan every track/route map that we ever produced.

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Tuesday, October 18, 2022 6:12 PM

Dave - I think I may have found the spot / intersection where the 324 "A"
Route TARS car was shot --- will have to get back to it later -- very ill this weekend -- possible food poisioning (salmonella or bochelism) --  I put MAIN ST (which is Boston rd Rt-1 now)  and Pelham Ave in the Google Map Search -- and got the "town" drive-along current images.  Actually found DRAKE STREET where ERA map shows a right hand track (dotted line) turn from the 2 track mainline tracks on MAIN ST (called back then, now called Boston Road-US1 )  of present time.  I think that photo was taken on Main Street which is all business type real estate .  UNFORTUNATELY --- its mainly ALL NEW real estate since the 1940's photo -- likely done afterr WWII

No trace of anything left from whats in the photo from that 1940's period..

The ERA map is badly drawing-flawed in its compression the way it shows Pelham intersecting with Main St...which is more of a 90 degree angle in reaglity and not the slight merging angle as ERA map shows. 

Anyway, I will provide some current photos of where I think the shot was taken --- likely ON MAIN ST (US-1 now)  just before or just after DRAKE STREET and that dotted-line curving branch track seen on ERA map. I DO NOT believe  Pelham  Or Pelhamdale Avenues, which is mainly all very old OLD residential  homes thru-out, was the location of the trolley "A" route car scene.. 

Regards - Joe F 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 2, 2022 2:10 AM

Two Yonkers photos.  357- uis on the "4" McLean Avenue Line, north of the Yonkers -  The Bronx Line, on Central Park Avenue, where the line trasnsitions from center-of-the-road to weidely-spaced.  371 is south of the northern terminal of the Park Avernue  (-Broadwsay), Palasades Avenue, south of Roberts Avenue..

  

  

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 2, 2022 5:35 AM

According to a photo sent me, the market and the store adjacent are now occupied by ac Bank.  The buildings remain.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 3, 2022 1:28 AM

Previous post is in error.  Closer examination indicates the Market location is now the "Yonkers Food Court>"

The bank is in the building to the right of the "food court."

From the Google symbolism, the "food court" includes sit-down dining.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 21, 2022 3:15 PM

Two for Winter in The Bronx.  One at West Farms Car House, with one of New York's newest. and one----

Bruckner Blvd.?   NO!!   Bernside Avenue  NO! a second time.  Floedham Rload and oosted earlier.     Apologies!

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, November 21, 2022 9:15 PM

daveklepper

 

 

 

It looks like the car is stuck and blocking the trollys.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 22, 2022 11:04 AM

You are right.  Also, I correcteed the caption.   Bernside Avenue.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 25, 2022 1:56 AM

Second correction.   Not Bruckner, not Bernside, Fordham Road correct.

Apologies

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