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Third Avenue Lightweight Streetcars

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 24, 2022 3:00 PM

Inspection of an ERA track-map indicates this photo is at the point where Pelhamdale Avenue becomes Main Street, Prlham, within Pelham.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 25, 2022 10:42 AM

And a  correspondant pointed out that my correction of the original photo's tilt lost detail.  Also, the Pelham location does not requuire my own addition of a suggestion of a second diverging track, which the tilt coection and the first-thought Westchester Avenue location did require.  So here is the photo with further corrections:

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 6:20 PM

Dave

Your location and info is again unfortunately incorrect.

Pelhamdale Avenue does and and never becomes MAIN street in Pelhamdale !!! 

Pelhamdale Avenue runs south from its north "T" intersection ending point at 1st Avenue, Village of Pelham - and runs due south and east crossing Colonial Avenue (which is Sanford Blvd in Mt Vernon /aka E.6th St) -- and crosses US-1 which is Boston Post Road in Pelham Manor,  and heads southeast and dead ends at Shore Road which becomes Pelham Ave just N/E of the end of Pelhamdale road to it.... by "New York Athletic Club - Travers Island"  at what is called Lower Harbor at the mouth of the Atlantic Ocean.  See link to google interactive MAP of streets below;

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pelhamdale+Ave,+New+Rochelle,+NY/@40.8972364,-73.8032264,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c28d0f34cbcc1b:0xd6aa8f209d748e11!8m2!3d40.9080132!4d-73.807814?hl=en

You can follow the north start end of Pelhamdale Ave southward to where it ends at Shore Road / Pelham Ave.  So that trolley scene is no where along that (Pelhamdale) road or any of its intersections !! 

 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Tuesday, July 26, 2022 7:28 PM

Hi Dave --

I see you again repeatedly bring up that same TARS 324 Trolley scene Photo - so I added my edited version also, the top-most photo under here.

You and anyone else here can plainly see and compare your latest photo editing version (the bottom photo) to the ONE and only photo-edit version I did to the same photo seen at TOP portion of this message. Click on EACH photo to get to an enlarged version.

 

The red and yellow lines - and yellow circle I drew in to call direct attention so as to show the mushy, snowy, very grainy  and poor detail in your (5th attempt ?) editing this photo. 

Also note along the top of the stores at left, highlighted between the 2 yellow lines --- the long darker edit patch / line along the stores windows tops area down to the sidewalk,  and the above it,  a lighter grainier fuzzy appearance of the store facade from above the lower darker part, up towards the roof. 

Also note the indicated (between red lines) very fuzzy drawn in by you, trolley wires. And the red boxed area of the very grainy mushy side of the TARS streetcar -- and other grainy indistinguisable items / details marked in lines or boxes. Such as the very now grainy and washed out looking 3 story building just past the rear of the # 324 trolley. And at center right edge of photo, the parked auto and street behind it (seen clearly in my edited version) are, in your edited version, now an unrecognizable grainy mush !  Compare those items to the same ones in my edited photo at top which is far more sharper, clearer, and much more, details which stand out. 

I created my edited photo from the original very dark Film NEGATIVE image you provided here a few messages ago.  I did NOT use your first edited attempt lighter photo as the basis for creating my image editing as seen at top of this message.  

Anyone here can clearly see the difference in sharper details-quality of the, my edited,  top photo,  compared less-so to your lower edited photo.   Why can't you also see the major difference !??  Old saying ... 'if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it, or ruin it ",  Dave !

Regards - Joe F

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 29, 2022 4:21 AM

Any one can see the tilt in your version of my photo, which to me is a bad distortion.  And the white squares that you inserted into the sky in "my version"are yours, and not in my photo.

I have zero problem with your comparison.  Do that as much as you wish.  If there is actual improvement, I'll be as happy as you.  And so will other readers.

Meanwhile, 1936 or 1937-built 192 at the E. 65th shop where built.  It was first iused on B'way-42nd Street, then transferred  to Tenth Avenue when the "Huffliners," the double-end Peter Witts 551-625 arrived in 1938.  But it went back to B'way in 1941 with wartime passenger loading increase, and curved-side convertables returned to 10th Av, staying there until buses came in November, 1946.  When B'way-42 went bus at end of 1946, 192 webnt to Third & Amsterdam ("T") but apparently was not repainted, until moving to the Bronx with trolley poles, runnuing there 'till summer 1948, and then used as a spare in Yonkers to 1952.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 29, 2022 8:20 AM

Some more Pictures at the East 65th Street car-house and shop where the homemade lightweights were  constructed.  123 also made it to the Bronx with trolley-poles added, but I don't think it reached Yo

 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Friday, July 29, 2022 4:14 PM

Hello again Dave

 

YOU alone are the ONLY person who refuses and can't see the major defects in your TARS 324 A-route car "photo edits" compared to my edited clearer version. All other viewers plainly do.

No one else here, including myself,  sees any of your self-imagined "white squares" you claim that I inserted into the sky in "your edit version"  of the TARS car 324 photo -- as I never used your "edited photo" image version of the original negative -- to make my much cleared and detailed copy.  I used solely the NEGATIVE directly.  Those white square are also NOT seen either by anyone in my clearer sharper edited version !! (except you?)

Other readers here already well know and see the improvements in my edit version image over that of yours.  I expect they can't understand WHY you "can't" and refuse to see them compared to your version.  No one else here sees any distortion you claim, except you,  in the very slight tilt in the original photo as shot by the photographer's camera, that you edited out in your edited version --- losing some important photo-perimeter details in that proccess. 

 

PS:  Very nice set of newest photos of TARS at E. 65th St & 3rd Ave., -- EXCEPT for this one which your edits (I marked them) defaced.  I assume you were 13 years old when these were taken - possibly in 1945,  or age 15 in 1947 when the Manhattan TARS line on 3rd Ave ended. And that you did not take the photos yourself. see below --

 And again, BELOW -- your same photo just as you edited it and as you posted it, but without my marking to show defects you caused:

WHERE is the EL Column base / footing that your edits washed out at bottom of the nearest left EL Column??!!  And note the now mushed-up blurred cobblestone pavement you distorted ahead of the column with its missing base-footing.  And what are those other noted edit defects you caused tampering with the original image. All viewers here will see these but you will likely ignore them in denial. WHY !!?

Dave -- do we viewers a favor - Please do SHOW US the ORIGINAL "unedited" photo itself.  Can you !??

Again, why not just show the original photo as is - in respect to/for  the photographer - with none of your edit-distorted tampering.? A pity  !!

Regards - Joe F

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, July 30, 2022 3:41 PM

THe white squares are now gone ftom your version of my version,  THank you,  Or possibly a computer was playing tricks on me.

The point is that anyone can see the tilt in your version, but you needed to ouitline in red the tiny wiskers that the jpg format often causes on trolley wire.

Regarding the photo under the Third Avenue Elevated, I'll find the original scan and also follow your suggestion regarding the column base.

Joe, tilts don't bother you and all your many friends.  But tilted photos bother me and, for most part poated on these theads, they are my photos.  And not once has Nate ever complained to me about any changes I've made to photos he has sent me.  You are the only complainer.  Rich Allman never ever complains but does, on occasion, give me a further-improved version or suggests further improvement on my part, and I follow his advice.

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Saturday, July 30, 2022 5:12 PM

Hello Dave

I am the only one who constructively commented because I have a lifetime of working professionally in photography and now 20 years of computer skills....documented quite well and known.  I even build websites using, writing,  HTML code to a blank screen to completely finished pages.

The "white squares" you refer to were NEVER at all in any of my edits on my photo-edited version of that TARS 324 car -- and I did not even see them in your own edits of that same photo.  And no one else I shared those Your and my versions)  photos with saw them !  SO I really don't know what you are talking about.  Show those "white squares" to us here !!

I am the only one commenting so far as - well,  someone has to finally step up to the plate and have the integrity to do so -- solely to help and inform you. And I got an email from someone YOU know well,  stating same and thanking me.

Most people dont have the integrity or fortitude to confront people who really need constructive advice  or guidance, or as in this case, the issue at hand .  Nate and I email and phone talk regularly, and so does Russ email me - and we have discussed your  edits-issue with them in my favor of my editing skills. And a few others have emailed me in support of my comments and observations on this issue.  Its like trying to get witnesses to a crime they actually saw to come forward and get involved --- and usually, generally, very few to NONE come forward, or want to "get involved" -- and yes, I was in law enforcement.

Most people don't WANT to get involved to offer help or advice and then chance to get hissy fits from the person they try to help.  Not worth it. You have heard of the SILENT MAJORITY in politics.  No one really wants to expose or put themselves or name out in the fore-front to complain about issues publically in media -- except solely to complain privately about issues to each other when socializing.  But get that large majority really PO's, and - well, thats how President Trump got elected.  

Dave --Here BELOW is that original photo under the EL exactly as you posted and  exactly as you edited it --

AND - here BELOW is my FIX of that TARS Trolley under 3rd Ave EL photo -- This is a 2nd edit-version BELOW that I did more intensive edit-work on ... especially the left forward EL column (its base I added and its top arch right curve rebuilt) and more work on the structure.  The neg was scratched and had dings and "white-washed out" patches.  -- and I removed much of them. I also lightened the  image a bit to remove all of the darkness.  My final result BELOW:

So as you and all know, click each image to get enlarged view and put their tabs next to each other in the tabs bar at screen top.  Then you can flip back and forth to each image to compare.

Perhaps you will finally come to see solely how and why I am trying to help you, show you, etc. With the great and historic photos you have collected (and took) over 75 or so years -- why not you show them in the BEST VISUAL way you can without, umm, unintentionally edit-defacing them !  Per your version of  the two photos above here to support that comment.

Best Regards - Joe F

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, July 30, 2022 9:48 PM

Russ and Nate are very good friends, and if they wished me to bow to all your demands instead of choosing which of your comments are truly helpful, which I do my best to implement, I'm sure they would tell me.

Anyway, here is what you requested and my attempt to get meaningful stantion base data from a badly scratched negative, and the start of a 1948 Yonkers Fan-trip.

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, July 30, 2022 10:19 PM

I must point out that the stantion base in your improved vesion is not the same as  that in my badly-scratched original.   Not all Third Avenue stantion bases  ended up the same, mostly becaose of  repaving.

My posting the original scan here is an exception to the rule.  I have very good reasons not to diustribute  original scans.  Thank you.

The Yonkers fan-trip picture  is not sharp, probably because of camera motion due to a distraction while taking the picture. Editing consisted of cropping to remove edge blemishes of unimpofrtant data and some darkening of the  sky.

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Sunday, July 31, 2022 1:46 AM

Hello again Dave !

Thanks much for that new information and image - seems you were able to cobble the El column original footing from the negative which your original edits did not.  Thus I had no actual detail reference point to work with on my edit - and replicated the large rounded footing style see across the Avenue along the east side of 3rd Ave.

 

I did manage to correct my edit photo showing the flater low-boy column footing base.  See BELOW:

In my having grown up and lived along that El until it was demolished -- and for many years thereafter -- I was keenly aware back then of oddities of the El's construction, including the 2 styles of column bases.  The LOWER base style was NOT the result of any roadway repaving. The Avenue was paved with streetcar tracks and cobblestones from the beginning of the El in 1876-78 construction. And never repaved thereafter -- exception being thin coats of blacktop asphalt paving patches here and there over the (after Nov. 1947) abandoned TARS tracks and cobblestones.

Here BELOW is a photo in my immediate neighborhood -- I saw this scene countless times then -- looking south from E. 83rd Street along the nearly demolished EL in Nov. 1955.  Note the two column base types on the two right side close columns !

Only the pillars remain, looking south from 83rd Street, fall, 1955

As far as Nate and Russ -- they have both agreed with me about the edits issues by emails ... and Nate daily by phone conversations.  And I told them directly to TELL YOU by email, and don't just tell me and agree solely with me.  I said that to a few others following this.  Likely they see your continued "mode of denial" demeanor you present to me on this "editing" issue.

I gave you the basic reasons why many people don't want to get involved in something that will possibly bring agita to them by the person they try to help !  For people like them its better to "see nothing, say nothing, hear nothing, and do nothing"  and "saw wood and say nothing" (old sayings).

Best Reagrds - Joe F

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Sunday, July 31, 2022 2:24 AM

Hello again Dave

Thats a great photo of the 3 TARS CARS lined up at about W. 243rd Street on broadway, Bronx  !!  Those are the type cars I remember riding with my Uncle on the #7 Yonkers Ave. TARS line in 1951-52 before that line was ended.  The IRT (# 1 & 3 trains today) EL Terminal Station at W.242nd Street is in background ! NOTE that back then -- the left hand stairway is in its original 1904-built position close to its station house.  Many years later the (Broadway) Avenue was widened along its east (left) side and the stairway was moved and relocated further east about 20 + feet eastward onto the new sidewalk of the widened lanes. aAlong with a new covered extension walkway-bridge from the station house to its new location. And remains that way today !

As far as Nate and Russ -- they have both agreed with me about the edits issues by emails ... and Nate daily by phone conversations.  And I told them directly to TELL YOU by email, and don't just tell me and agree solely with me.  I said that to a few others following this.  Likely they see your continued "mode of denial" demeanor you present to me on this "editing" issue.

regards - Joe F

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 31, 2022 1:59 PM

I do not know abour Russ; about his view regarding my editing.  He is a good friend and I have not heard frion him.  Regarding Nate, so far I've  received only positive comments about any editing I've done on any photos he has sent me.

That does not mean I will stop trying to do a better job in the future, and I am certain Richard Allman will help me.

Regarding column basis.  Note that pavement  must be relatively level.  but the supporting rock, and most of Manhattan is on rock if my memory is correct, is certainly not always level.  This means that often the column supporting an elevated structure does not actually have a real base above the pavement, only what really is only a protecting structure, with the real base below grade.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 1, 2022 10:46 AM

One loose matter needs to cleared up.  Yes, I was 15 when Manhattan streetcar service ended, except for some intrusions of Bronx lines that lasted into 1948, but I had just received my first Leica camera, and used it extensively on streetcars and trains.  Unless I specifically state otherwise, all photographs on this thread were taken by me, except that some very few photographs were taken of existing photographs on carhouse office walls, 551 in the Gardner Avenue Yard and any of 555 in exposed finished aluminum. I had begun photographing streetcars and trains even earlier, with borrowed equipment.  See the photo of Huffliner 600 earlier on this thread.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 1, 2022 9:16 PM

Another view of fan-trip 357 at Broadway and West 242nd Street:  I was 16.

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