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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 6:03 PM

 

I'll preface my remarks with the disclaimer that I have little specific knowledge of this subject other than the cypress logging/shipping operation in Florida which I previously mentioned. I know that it was common at one time for logging railroads to haul saw timber from the woodlands either directly to a sawmill or to a body of water where the logs would be floated to the sawmill. Mills sprung up all over the forested regions of the US and Canada and later closed down as the forests were depleted. Whole towns whose economy was based on lumbering sprung up near these forestry operations and often became ghost towns as the timber was exhausted and the sawmills closed.

 

As the mills became dependent on more distant sources of timber I am fairly certain that it was common for saw logs to be transported to a railhead where theywere loaded onto rail cars of either a Class I or shortline for shipment to a far away sawmill. Of course today virtually all of this timber is shipped by truck.

 

50 years ago all over the south pulp wood would be shipped by rail to the paper mills. Wood yards were common sights along the rail lines in those regions where southern pines grew and were harvested. Most all southern railroads had large fleets of pulpwood cars on which the cut logs would be loaded at these woodyards. Today the wood yards and the pulp wood cars are nearly, if not all, gone and pulp wood is shipped directly from where it is cut to the paper mills by truck.

 

In recent times some of the surviving pulp wood cars have seen service hauling a far different commodity. I would often see whole unit trains of the old pulp wood cars loaded with huge steel slabs headed north on the KCS here at Shreveport. I believe this was foreign steel that was unloaded from ships at one of the Mexican Pacific or US Gulf ports and destined for rolling mills in the upper midwest. The cars all had either KCS or SR (that gives you an idea how old they were) reporting marks. It's probably been a year since I last saw one of these trains and if they are still running they nust be coming through my neck of the woods now in the wee hours of the morning. 

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Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 2:49 PM

Here in the west not far from where we live the giant redwoods can be found. There has been much interest in redwoods in Stockton recently. During the time before power saws it sometimes took men with cross cut saws more than a day to fell a single one of these giants and then mules were used to drag them to the logging RR where in some cases a single log filled a logging car for the trip to the mill. Our forefathers were some pretty rugged individuals when I see pictures of these loggers and the size of the trees they harvested.

Now to more recent times. Here in Stockton there has been some concern about storm drains and some sewers in certain old neighborhoods as they are over 100 years old and are made of redwood. With the economic downturn there is no money available for replacement. So city engineers are drilling down to these sewers and storm drains and taking samples of the redwood to see what kind of shape they are really in. The latest word is they should be good for another fifty years at least. I just happen to live in one of the neighborhoods that has these type sewers and storm drains. So I guess if I live another fifty years(rather doubtful) I might see them replaced at that time. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:14 PM

daveklepper
I think this included the Bangor and Aroostick (spelling?), the Rutland, and possibly the Central Vermont

Dave, since you asked, it is Aroostook.From the first time I saw it, in a Guide, fifty-eight years ago, the name has fascinated me. Sad  to say, I was never able to ride the Potatoland Special (or any other BAR train). I also missed out on all MEC and RUT trains. I did ride the CV, albeit on Amtrak trains, in 1984.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:56 AM

Several railroads gathered Christmas trees and transported them to depots for distribution.   I think this included the Bangor and Aroostick (spelling?), the Rutland, and possibly the Central Vermont.   On others the frieght crews did it unnofficially.   These were small whole trees and generally carried in regular box cars or gondolas.

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, August 17, 2009 12:54 PM

Great Western

Were there instances where whole cut down trees traveled on flat cars some distances beyond the logging line onto a Class 1 railroad?

Great Western,

Good to hear from you. Yes indeed but not exactly whole trees just the commercially usable tree trunks.

I am most familiar with an operation that ran well into the 1950's. The Tidewater Cypress lumber company logged cypress trees from their vast swamp lands in south Florida. These were then transported in unit trains of about 50 cars each that ran on the Atlantic Coast Line RR several hundred miles to the company's sawmills around Perry in north Florida. For a number of years three such unit log trains were run each week. I'm sure there were many similar operations in other parts of the US.

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Posted by Great Western on Monday, August 17, 2009 11:37 AM

 Oh! sorry.  I have gotten confused with a similar type of thread elsewhere on the Forum.

From reading web sites and seeing pics of logging railroads it seems that logs rarely traveled further from where they were felled to the sawmill or river into which they were deposited to float to a sawmill.

Were there instances where whole cut down trees traveled on flat cars some distances beyond the logging line onto a Class 1 railroad?

Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 17, 2009 5:03 AM

A reminder, Great Western:  It is your turn to ask a question!

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Posted by Great Western on Saturday, August 8, 2009 9:35 AM

 Since making my question post I recalled a web site that I had once seen dealing with troop trains.

Here is the link.

http://www.archive.org/details/TroopTra1943

The secrecy of the time says that the train was 'somewhere in America', but I am sure some 'hawk-eyed' Member will put names and maybe numbers to the locos and recognize some places featured.

I found the method of communal bathing very interesting.   Cool

Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad

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If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)

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Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, August 8, 2009 8:12 AM

Great Western, I forgot to say thanks for the NY Times article about the Vanderbilt statue.

Dave, the old St. Johns Park Freight Station was demolished in 1936. As you know, the new St. Johns Park Freight Terminal was at the end of the High Line. Most of the freight moved through the many interior elevators, however on the south wall of the building there was a hoist apparatus for lifting oversized or unwieldy shipments up to track level. In the first picture the trolley tracks on Washington St. have been removed by the Works Progress Administration. A passenger train was there for the grand opening in 1934.

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Posted by KCSfan on Friday, August 7, 2009 5:46 PM

Great Western

My question is, therefore, how many of these cars were made for the American armed forces and what other types of military car could (can) be seen?

Great Western,

I have no idea how many of these cars were made but I am familiar with other types of cars made for military use in America during WW2. There were large numbers of troop sleepers and kitchen cars made for use on troop trains. There were also hospital cars for transporting wounded service men. As a boy I remember seeing all these types of cars running on the Illinois Central through my hometown.

Mark

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Posted by passengerfan on Friday, August 7, 2009 1:29 PM

Great Western

 Yes indeed the MN Class and the Battle of Britain Class locos were Bulleid Pacifics and ran to the non-electrified areas of South Western England.

Although I am a 'dyed-in-the-wool' Great Western aficionado I do have a soft spot for these locos as I live in a maritime part of England and was in the R.A.F. for a while.

I recently had the opportunity to ask a question ( I did in fact ask another one as well Wink) and feel that maybe someone else should have a turn but just in case that is not the way it works - here goes.

I am a Garden railroader (I am to be seen on the sister Forum here).  A NJ manufacturer of 1:29 railroad models is currently producing 40ft. military boxcars. There are four types: U.S. Air Force, Navy, Army and Marine Corps.

My question is, therefore, how many of these cars were made for the American armed forces and what other types of military car could (can) be seen?

 


 

I don't think the DOD gives out the numbers produced of there cars. The ones I am familiar with are those lettered USN and USMC as I have seen them at Port Chicago, Seal Beach, Yuma, and Camp Pendleton. Those were all painted Silver at the time with black lettering and carried munitions from bunkers to Navy ships at Seal Beach and Port Chicago. There were also all white forty foot boxcars with Black lettering at the same Naval munition depots. Those at Camp Pendleton I remember seeing but can't remember what color they were actually painted. Those at Yuma were white with black lettering. I'm relying on memory from over thirty years in the past.

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Posted by Great Western on Friday, August 7, 2009 10:47 AM

 Yes indeed the MN Class and the Battle of Britain Class locos were Bulleid Pacifics and ran to the non-electrified areas of South Western England.

Although I am a 'dyed-in-the-wool' Great Western aficionado I do have a soft spot for these locos as I live in a maritime part of England and was in the R.A.F. for a while.

I recently had the opportunity to ask a question ( I did in fact ask another one as well Wink) and feel that maybe someone else should have a turn but just in case that is not the way it works - here goes.

I am a Garden railroader (I am to be seen on the sister Forum here).  A NJ manufacturer of 1:29 railroad models is currently producing 40ft. military boxcars. There are four types: U.S. Air Force, Navy, Army and Marine Corps.

My question is, therefore, how many of these cars were made for the American armed forces and what other types of military car could (can) be seen?

 


 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, August 7, 2009 4:52 AM

And I learned something!   I didn't know that CV lived that long!   How old was he when he died?  And it was at St. John's Park and not at the old Grand Central Depot.   The freight reminal at St. John's Park was of course torn down in 1929 or shortly after to make way for the new modern concrete elevated one in connection with the huge grade separation program.   So that would explain why it was moved.

 

Are the Merchant Navy class the "Bullard Pacifics" that contunued to haul the Southern Bell byond the  electrified zone up to the end of steam on the Southern Region?   If so, I rode behind one in 1962.   Also behind a Gresly A-4 Kingfisher between Aberdeen and Dundee. 

 

Looking forward to your question.   

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:00 PM

Great Western, it's your turn. Cornelius Vanderbilt (1794-1877) put himself atop St. Johns Park Freight Station of the Hudson River Railroad in 1869. He moved uptown to Grand Central in 1929.

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Posted by Great Western on Thursday, August 6, 2009 8:52 AM

 great western beat me to it.

 Hi Dave,

Not difficult for me to do.  After all I am probably at least five hours, maybe more (no location on your Profile), than you.  Unless you get up very early I can usually get here first.  However, if you turn in late than maybe you can beat me to it. Laugh

It was interesting that the name of Cornelius Vanderbilt arose today.  Last evening, reading the August 2009 issue of Back Track (a UK monthly railroad magazine similar to Classic Trains) an article concerning the UK Southern Railway Merchant Navy Class locos made reference to the steamship companies that the loco names commemorated.

Amongst the North American names were of course C.V. known as the 'Commodore' from his shipping interests, and J.P. Morgan.

Amongst the railroads mentioned were Canadian Pacific, Chesapeake and Ohio and the United Fruit Company (who shipped bananas to us outside of the two worlds wars.

I guess steamships are outside the scope of this Forum and posts but even so maybe the rolling stock which supplied the ships is not. 

Food for thought!  Laugh

http://www.clan-line.org.uk/index.htm

For those unfamiliar with this class of locos it will be found that they were built with a streamlined shrouding  and known affectionately as Spamcans, but were later rebuilt to a conventional appearance.

 

Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 6, 2009 7:49 AM

great western beat me to it.   Yes, there is a statue of conelius vanderbuilt looking down Park Avenue south at the center of the south side of GCT (unless it has been removed recently, and I don't know why.)   Saw it lots of times when I lived, worked, visted NYC.  I'm not sure whether "The Commidore" passed on before or after GCT replaced GCDepot, but the statue was not assuradly there when he was alive.   I was to commemorate him after he passed on.   If his death occured before the Terminal was under construction then it probably stood at Grand Central Depot as well as the successor Grand Central Terminal.  Incidentally, the Depot was not a Terminal becuase NYNH&H coaches from some of their trains could still be hauled by horses down to to their 24th Street and Park Avenue Terminal.  I think this continued until up to the time that the 4th and Madison streetcar line was electrified or until construction of GCT commenced.   At least all this is what I remember, and if someone has corrections, I'll be pleased to be educated. 

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Posted by Great Western on Thursday, August 6, 2009 7:39 AM

From a search it seems Grand Central Terminal (probably known by other names) is where the statue is presently located.   The following links are interesting as they mention its history,

 Maybe I might get to see it one day. [:)]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/realestate/19scape.html?_r=1

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/3435825389/

 

PS:  Maybe searching is considered the easy way?  Please inform.  Question

Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 6, 2009 5:50 AM

Where is a statue of Cornelius Vanderbilt? When was it put there and where did it come from?

Mike

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 12:31 PM

Deggesty

KCSfan
When I asked this question I actually had in mind routes that were entirely within the US but I failed to state that. I feel sure that one or another of the routes from Canadain cities were the longest but I don't know which one. Since I don't have info regarding these routes I'll have to rely on you guys to come up with the mileage to substantiate which was the longest. Sorry for the confusion.

The early birds beat me to it, since I get up at a decent time (0600), read the paper, eat breakfast, etc. before firing the computer up. I first thought, South Wind to Miami, and it was the longest of the three main Chicago-Miami routes (1559 miles, which probably includes going by East Palatka even though all but the local went on the cutoff {the cutoff saved 26 miles}) Then I thought there might have been a Boston-New Orleans line via Montgomery, which would have been 1582 miles, including the PRR's practice of including going into Broad Street and back out even when the trains did not actually go in and out but stopped at the 30th St. station. But Quebec City-Miami (2015 miles) certainly beats all that were strictly U.S.A.

Johnny

I guess it is Wanswheel's turn. The Halifax - Miami service I was thinking about required a station transfer in Boston from one train to another so that doesn't count. Thats what I get for being up at 1:00 AM at my age I should know better. But believe it or not I had just finished a tax clients return and was relaxing for a few minutes before going to bed.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 12:03 PM

KCSfan
When I asked this question I actually had in mind routes that were entirely within the US but I failed to state that. I feel sure that one or another of the routes from Canadain cities were the longest but I don't know which one. Since I don't have info regarding these routes I'll have to rely on you guys to come up with the mileage to substantiate which was the longest. Sorry for the confusion.

The early birds beat me to it, since I get up at a decent time (0600), read the paper, eat breakfast, etc. before firing the computer up. I first thought, South Wind to Miami, and it was the longest of the three main Chicago-Miami routes (1559 miles, which probably includes going by East Palatka even though all but the local went on the cutoff {the cutoff saved 26 miles}) Then I thought there might have been a Boston-New Orleans line via Montgomery, which would have been 1582 miles, including the PRR's practice of including going into Broad Street and back out even when the trains did not actually go in and out but stopped at the 30th St. station. But Quebec City-Miami (2015 miles) certainly beats all that were strictly U.S.A.

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:47 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
EJ&E had trackage rights on C&EI into the Danville area to serve coal mines in that area, which would explain why EJ&E power was equipped with Miller Train Control.  I'm not sure when the trackage rights operation was discontinued.

Well, well. I have known that the SPV atlases are not 100% accurate, so I am not surprised to learn that the compilers did not include this old trackage right agreement. In many instances, the atlases will show not only current (as of publication) ownership and trackage rights, but also previous ownership and trackage rights. There must be some cutoff date as to how far back the information goes, for there certainly is no indication, for example, of what roads went into the NYC's route between Albany and Buffalo. I posited GTW because I knew that GTW used the Dearborn Street station, even though it was not shown in the atlas as having trackage rights from Thornton Jct.--and I forgot that the GTW used its own track from a junction with the CWI about 47th St. even though I rode the GTW from Chicago to Detroit in 1969 and now remember that we swung west before going south so we could go east.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 10:04 AM
KCSfan
wanswheel

Mark, it seems there was a total of 30 such 2-8-2s on the EJ&E roster.

Mike,

Wow, that's far more than I remembered and leads me to wonder why any, much less 30, EJ&E engines were so equipped.  The C&EI/EJ&E connection was at Chicago Heights and from the time I was born in 1932 until 1955 I lived just a few miles west of the C&EI mainline. I often saw their trains at both Chicago Heights and Thornton but never saw an EJ&E engine on C&EI trackage. Perhaps the C&EI sometimes borrowed engines from the EJ&E to head their road freights which would be one explanation for the Miller T.C. on the EJ&E Mikes. But if they did I was never aware of it.

Mark 

EJ&E had trackage rights on C&EI into the Danville area to serve coal mines in that area, which would explain why EJ&E power was equipped with Miller Train Control.  I'm not sure when the trackage rights operation was discontinued.

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Posted by KCSfan on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:13 AM

When I asked this question I actually had in mind routes that were entirely within the US but I failed to state that. I feel sure that one or another of the routes from Canadain cities were the longest but I don't know which one. Since I don't have info regarding these routes I'll have to rely on you guys to come up with the mileage to substantiate which was the longest. Sorry for the confusion.

Mark

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 6:43 AM

In 1924, Quebec City to Miami on the Washingtonian and the Havana Special.

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 3:24 AM

KCSfan

Next question.

What was the longest through sleeping car route east of the Mississippi River? Name the end point terminal cities and the train or trains which carried these sleepers.

Mark

Mark

Entirely east of the Mississippi River Boston to New Orleans via NYNH&H, PRR, Sou, A&WP, L&N.  The primary train was the Crescent

Or Montreal to Tampa via CN, CV, NYNH&H, PRR, ACL The primary train was the Orange Blossom Special that also carried through Boston - Florida cars as well. This was a winter only car and it seems to me that at one time there was through Pullman service from Halifax to Florida If I have enough time this morning after a few hours sleep I will look that one up.

Goodnight to all

Al - in - Stockton

Those two come immediatly to mind in the middle of the night without looking them up in the guides.

Those are the only two that

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Posted by KCSfan on Wednesday, August 5, 2009 2:39 AM

Next question.

What was the longest through sleeping car route east of the Mississippi River? Name the end point terminal cities and the train or trains which carried these sleepers.

Mark

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, August 4, 2009 7:47 PM

Deggesty
Mark, you are right, so far. All of the nine you named are listed in the April, 1955, Guide. There is one more, and if no one comes up with it in a day or so, I'll tell you all.

The last route was the Washington-Sunset Route, which carried a 10-6 Washington-New Orleans-Los Angeles on the Crescent and the Sunset Limited. The roads, of course, were Southern, Atlanta and West Point, Western Railway of Alabama, Louisville and Nashville, and Southern Pacific.

Mark, I am sure you realized that you answered enough to be the winner, as you named almost all of those that were in effect at the time stated, and you did not suggest abandoned or future lines.

Johnny

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Posted by wanswheel on Monday, August 3, 2009 4:24 PM

Rock Island, PRR and NYC ads show the Golden State as having New York sleepers, before 1955 of course.

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T31/T3177/T3177-med.jpeg

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T30/T3093/T3093-med.jpeg

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T24/T2454/T2454-med.jpeg

C&O and Nickel Plate "hog" ad is on a scanned page of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette at Google Newspapers. To read it, click the square button with 4 arrows, then scroll sideways and down as necessary.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19460305&id=OgMNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=v2kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3236,4692878

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, August 3, 2009 1:07 PM

KCSfan

I've only come up with nine routes and will have to rely on you or someone else to identify the one that I've missed. I'd guess that the Super Chief carried the most coast to coast sleepers.

Mark

Mark, you are right, so far. All of the nine you named are listed in the April, 1955, Guide. There is one more, and if no one comes up with it in a day or so, I'll tell you all.

The Super Chief carried four cars that were operated through to/from the East Coast: Washington (B&O)-LA, NY(PRR)-LA, and two NY(NYC)-LA. I should have spoken of eleven lines, since the Central handled not only a 10-6 but also a 4-4-2 that went coast-to-coast.

The City of Los Angeles carried two cars, both NY(PRR & NYC)-LA.

The California Zephyr and City of San Francisco each had only one car at time, since the PRR and NYC cars to San Francisco ran only every other day. The scheduling was such that you could leave New York on either road every day, but the day of the month you left would determine which train took you to the West Coast.

In previous years, there were several other combinations, but, as I remarked, there were ten (actually eleven, with the two cars NYC-SFe) by this time. And then there were none until the SP-Sou-PRR routing that was inaugurated not long before Amtrak started up.

Johnny

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, August 3, 2009 9:32 AM

Was there not a NY to LA via New Orleans PRR-SOU-SP Pullman route?

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