Trains.com

Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

856429 views
8197 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:09 PM

After that toughie about the Georgia RR's Pullmans I'll change the pace and throw out one that should be pretty easy.

In the 1940's and '50's the route of what through passenger train took it over more different railroads than any other. Do not count trackage rights or terminal railroads such as the TRRA; just the roads for which a passenger travelling the entire route would have a ticket coupon.

Also name all the railroads that handled this train and the cities/towns which it ran between on each road.

Mark 

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Monday, September 28, 2009 2:34 PM

Maybe we ought to cut this one loose and move on to another question.  Apparently I got a tad too esoteric on this one.  The cars I'm looking for are Aiken, Augusta, Penelope, and Gertrude.  The former two providing service in the earlier years and the latter pair replacing them.  Only the afternoon trains provided this service which was ended in 1927.

Mark, you were apparently only seconds behind me in providing the answer to the CGW question, so would you like to field the next one?

 

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, September 28, 2009 12:51 PM

Texas Zepher

AWP290
it offered Pullman-operated food service in Pullman parlor-broiler-buffet cars.

Well, I've found several references to parlor-broiler-buffet cars but none seem to have any possible relation with the Georgia Railroad.    I can find a few references to the Georgia Railroad but it is all coach equipment.

I also have been unable to find any reference to Pullman broiler or buffet-parlor cars that is tied to the Georgia. Indeed, the floor plans shown in Kratville's Passenger Car Catalog do not show any facility for preparing food in the buffet-parlor cars built before 1930; floor plans of cars that were rebuilt after 1930 do show some facilities. That there is no reference to the Georgia RR in our sources does not, of course, mean that Pullman never operated such cars on the Georgia, as some cars were built for general service. And, cars that were built for specific service that were later replaced could well have ended up in general service or on particular trians of other roads.

Alastair (renamed Rumson in 1929) and Angeline (18 seats-Buffet-Lounge) were built for the Royal Blue in 1916. Also built in 1916, for NH general service were four 18 seat-Lounge cars, named Charles River, Charter Oak, Fall River, and Fox Point.

The June, 1930, Guide, shows a Pullman parlor car on the afternoon trains from Atlanta and from Augusta; in the Twenties there may well have been parlor service on the morning trains from both cities as well--which would have have required the use of four cars.

I have no other ideas.

Johnny

Johnny

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorful Colorado
  • 8,639 posts
Posted by Texas Zepher on Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:32 PM

AWP290
it offered Pullman-operated food service in Pullman parlor-broiler-buffet cars.

Well, I've found several references to parlor-broiler-buffet cars but none seem to have any possible relation with the Georgia Railroad.    I can find a few references to the Georgia Railroad but it is all coach equipment.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Friday, September 25, 2009 11:33 AM

Thanks, Mark, for your concern, but my only problem with the floods in Atlanta was that of inconvenience.  A great many roads were flooded, washed out, or both making getting around metro-Atlanta an obstacle course.  Also, US 78 (the Stone Mountain Freeway) was completely blocked by a mud slide!  This is the only time I've ever heard of this happening anywhere in Georgia!

 Oh, yeah - the NS main line was completely washed out between Atlanta and Birmingham/Chattanooga.

 Now, back to our program....

While the Georgia Railroad never operated any full dining car service, in the 1920's it offered Pullman-operated food service in Pullman parlor-broiler-buffet cars.  There were two sets of cars (four total) that provided this service.  Name any one of them.  (I know this is an obscure question - aren't they all? - but I also know of two different sources where the info is available.)

 

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, September 25, 2009 11:05 AM

AWP290

If I recall correctly these cars had a special side door for the admission of stretcher patients en route to the Mayo Clinic, it being impossible to get stretchers around the sharp turns in a Pullman aisle. (A lesson re-learned in WWII with hospital cars converted from standard Pullmans.)  Don't know which of the accommodations had this door.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

Sorry, Henry; the picture of "Ephraim McDowell" in Kratville's Passenger Car Catalog (p. 43), does not show anything unusual hanging on the car. You are right,though, to connect the car with the Mayo Clinic

Yes, Mark, Bob is right, in essence. Now, I find it interesting that even though the cars were supposedly built in 1929, the June, 1930, issue of the Guide does not list this arrangement of accomodations in the equipment of the Rochester-Minnesota Special. It is listed in the February, 1950 issue, complete with a description of the exterior two doors that are opposite the interior doors to Bedrooms C and D (B&C, and D&E, could be sold en suite.). Thus a stretcher could be taken directly into C and D, provided, of course, that you had a platform or a lift beside the exterior doors.

Also of interest is the drawing of the floor plan, and the photograph of "Ephraim McDowell," both of which show a third exterior side door at the end of the section section of the car. Apparently it was there to permit bringing a stretcher in so it could be carried into the drawing room, but I have seen no mention of this door at all.

Joseph Lister was the pioneer in the use of antiseptics (we all know of a product named for him). Ephraim McDowell also emphasized extreme cleanliness, especially in surgical procedures. He performed the first ovariotomy--without anesthesia--successfully (look him up in Wikipedia; not mentioned in the Wikipedia article is the patient's way of keeping her mind off what Dr. McDowell was doing--she sang hymns throughout the whole procedure).

So, Bob, you have the honor of proposing a question.

Johnny

Johnny

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Friday, September 25, 2009 10:25 AM

Good job Bob. You beat me to it with what I think is the correct answer. I hope you weren't affected by the recent floods in the Atlanta area.

Mark

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Friday, September 25, 2009 5:23 AM

If I recall correctly these cars had a special side door for the admission of stretcher patients en route to the Mayo Clinic, it being impossible to get stretchers around the sharp turns in a Pullman aisle. (A lesson re-learned in WWII with hospital cars converted from standard Pullmans.)  Don't know which of the accommodations had this door.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 8,156 posts
Posted by henry6 on Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:31 PM

Rochester, MN....Mayo Clinic....then: tongue depresser?  Stethescope?  R----l thermometer? 

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:48 PM

KCSfan

Johnny, you take the next question. I've had quite a few lately  and the Larks were definitely the harder pair to identify.

Mark

Thank you, Mark. If you had not named the SP, I might not have come up with its night-flying day birds.

Here is one that I have thought of from time to time, but not when I had the opportunity to pose.

In 1929, Pullman built two cars to be used on the CNW’s Rochester Special (in later years, it was called the Rochester-Minnesota Special), which provided overnight service between Chicago and Rochester, Minn.

These cars, "Joseph Lister" and "Ephraim McDowell," were unique not only in their floor plan (8 sections, drawing room, and 4 double bedrooms), but also in an external feature.

What was this external feature? (hint–for what was Rochester, Minnesota, noted for many years?)

Johnny

Johnny

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:39 PM

Johnny, you take the next question. I've had quite a few lately  and the Larks were definitely the harder pair to identify.

Mark

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:13 PM

daveklepper

Never knew about the Texas Larks.   What years did they run?

 

The San Antonio-Dallas Lark existed in the late 1920's.  It was cut back to a San Antonio-Hearne run in 1932 and was gone shortly afterwards.

In the late 1920's, the Louisville and Nashville also operated a Lark between Ocean Springs and New Orleans.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:02 PM

Deggesty

The SP had two sets of birds that were operated in both Texas and California. Not only did the Owls fly in both states, the Larks flew in both states. The California trains Larks ran, of course, between Los Angeles and San Francisco/Oakland, and the Texas trains Larks ran betweenm Dallas and San Antonio.

Johnny

 

Yep, it was the Owl and the Lark.  Mark got one and you got the other one.  Do you two want to toss a coin to see who will ask the next question?

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:14 PM

Never knew about the Texas Larks.   What years did they run?

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:40 AM

ZephyrOverland
I wasn't looking for this train - you're right - one name was applied to two pairs of trains but as you mention they all met to swap cars.  The name I'm looking for was applied to two trains that did not share any stations.

The SP had two sets of birds that were operated in both Texas and California. Not only did the Owls fly in both states, the Larks flew in both states. The California trains Larks ran, of course, between Los Angeles and San Francisco/Oakland, and the Texas trains Larks ran betweenm Dallas and San Antonio.

Johnny

Johnny

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:09 PM

wanswheel

Border Limited #303/304 Houston-Corpus Christi (and Brownsville)

Border Limited #313/314 San Antonio-Brownsville (and Corpus Christi)

Or something like that. It seems all 4 trains met to swap cars in the middle of the night.

 

I wasn't looking for this train - you're right - one name was applied to two pairs of trains but as you mention they all met to swap cars.  The name I'm looking for was applied to two trains that did not share any stations.

 

I'll give this another day - I'll be away from the internet for the next few days. 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:03 PM

daveklepper

The SP did , of course, use the name Daylight for the Shasta Daylight, the Coast Daylight, and the San Joaquin Daylight, but possibly that isn't what you meant.   Oakland - Portland, SF-LA, and Oakland - LA.

 

I'm not looking for a fleet name.  This name in question was used on two different routes on the SP.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:20 AM

Border Limited #303/304 Houston-Corpus Christi (and Brownsville)

Border Limited #313/314 San Antonio-Brownsville (and Corpus Christi)

Or something like that. It seems all 4 trains met to swap cars in the middle of the night.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:22 AM

The SP did , of course, use the name Daylight for the Shasta Daylight, the Coast Daylight, and the San Joaquin Daylight, but possibly that isn't what you meant.   Oakland - Portland, SF-LA, and Oakland - LA.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:15 PM

Myron,

I'll have to leave it to someone else to come up with the other two SP trains of the same name that you have in mind. For the life of me I can't think of any other than the two Owls.

In the 1950's the NYC ran trains on 10 or so different routes that all carried the name, "Beeliner", in their timetables. But this was a generic name for the Central's RDC runs and doesn't meet what I believe was the intent of your question.

Mark

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:40 PM

KCSfan

That would be the two Owl's operated by the SP. One ran between Los Angeles and San Francisco and the other between Dallas and Houston.

Mark

Mark,

I was looking for two names that were used on the SP on two different routes each. You got the first train name.  I think my question wasn't clear enough. 

Myron

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:33 AM

That would be the two Owl's operated by the SP. One ran between Los Angeles and San Francisco and the other between Dallas and Houston.

Mark

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:29 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

We have a winner.  Zephyr Overland, have a slice of deep-dish pizza at Geno's East and you get to ask the next question.

Paul, if you don't mind, I'll have a stuffed pizza at Girodano's instead. :-)

As for the question:

Name two trains, the operating railroad and destinations, whose names were used on two different routes at the same time.  The trains were operated by one railroad.

Myron

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:36 AM

We have a winner.  Zephyr Overland, have a slice of deep-dish pizza at Geno's East and you get to ask the next question.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, September 21, 2009 2:15 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

New question:  C&NW moved to its current Chicago station at Madison & Canal in 1911.  Where was the location of its previous Chicago terminal?

 

The site of the previous C&NW terminal is now occupied by the Merchandise Mart, on Wells Street and the Chicago River.

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 21, 2009 10:06 AM

New question:  C&NW moved to its current Chicago station at Madison & Canal in 1911.  Where was the location of its previous Chicago terminal?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 21, 2009 4:12 AM

Note on the Electroliners.   Their floors were approximately 42 inches above rail, the same as normal Chicago elevated cars and othe North Shore (and CA&E) equipment.   They had to meet the platforms on the "L".   They had traps like other North Shore and regular railroad equipment.   Regular railroad equpent is about 50".   But correct me if I am in error, since I am working from memory..

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorful Colorado
  • 8,639 posts
Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, September 19, 2009 5:46 PM

henry6
Which railroad is most like wanswheel?

The Rio Grande with its own R&D laboratory?

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 8,156 posts
Posted by henry6 on Friday, September 18, 2009 9:56 PM

L&N is the answer to the above question as he is certainly Old Reliable when it comes to providing pictures and documents for virtually all questions and answers.  A BIG THANK YOU TO HIM FROM ALL OF US!

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter