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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:20 PM

passengerfan

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

How about the Havana Special of the FEC.

Al - in - Stockton

I got off easily on this one. Yes, the Havana Special went to Key West, passing through Miami in the small hours of the morning and arriving in Key West after an early breakfast. It left Key West just before time for dinner, and passed through Miami four hours later. I presume that the passengers in the Key West-Miami car were allowed to spend most of the night on the car, even if they had not yet gone to bed when it arrived in Miami. The January, 1930, Guide gives no information about occupancy for the southbound or northbound cars.

Your question, Al in - Stockton

Johnny

 

Johnny

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:45 PM

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

How about the Havana Special of the FEC.

Al - in - Stockton

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:38 PM

al-in-chgo

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

The Dixie Flagler to Key West?  -  a.s.

 

Al, by the time the Dixie Flagler was created, the Key West Extension had been destroyed below Florida City. It had never repaid the construction cost, so it was not rebuilt.

Johnny

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 4:48 PM

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

The Dixie Flagler to Key West?  -  a.s.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 4:15 PM

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:56 PM

passengerfan

How about Canadian Pacific they operated through the tunnel from Windsor to Detroit along with the NYC trains from and to across Southern Ontario so the CPR must have used the Michigan Central Station.

Al - in - Stockton

Al, I am sure Dave was referring to the CP–"But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station). Hint: The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees. Hint No. 2: Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII."

An interesting arrangement with the crews?

Johnny

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:17 PM

How about Canadian Pacific they operated through the tunnel from Windsor to Detroit along with the NYC trains from and to across Southern Ontario so the CPR must have used the Michigan Central Station.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:11 PM

daveklepper

B&O and C&O used Fort Street Station.   But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station).   Hint:  The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees.   Hint No.  2:  Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII.

Other than that, you are certianly a winner.   I think the Detroit Toledo and Ironton had some skelital passenger service during WWII, but it may not have been common carrier and in the Guide, and just for Ford employees to Dearborn, not Detroit proper.   Any one know more about this?

Yes, I should have said "Michigan Central", but could not think of the building as the Michigan Central station. Also, I seldom think of the Canadian Pacific as having service into Detroit, but, it of course did and had through service, in connection with the MC, between Chicago and various points in Canada.

Incidentally, the C&O did not go into Detroit until it absorbed the PM after the war; the PM handled the Sportsman, as well as the B&O trains between Toledo and Detroit.

For some time after the war, the B&O used the NYC/MC for a time, and then went back to the C&O.

As to the DT&I, I checked in my copies of the Guide that were published during the war, and the DT&I (which really was a common carrier) had only freight service by January of 1941.

Last year, I went to Detroit on Amtrak and used the Amtrak station. We do not advise going through Detroit if you are going to Canada by rail: you may have to wait quite a while to get a taxi driver who has the necessary permit to go into and back out of Canada--and the same holds if you come back through Windsor. It is also expensive, what with the tunnel toll.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:14 PM

B&O and C&O used Fort Street Station.   But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station).   Hint:  The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees.   Hint No.  2:  Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII.

Other than that, you are certianly a winner.   I think the Detroit Toledo and Ironton had some skelital passenger service during WWII, but it may not have been common carrier and in the Guide, and just for Ford employees to Dearborn, not Detroit proper.   Any one know more about this?

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:45 AM

al-in-chgo

Are you there, West Coast Al? 

I am here just trying to clear my desk of piles of tax files so can use it for trains once again. I have never seen a year where there is this number of tax clients on extension. Guess people don't have the money to pay the IRS? I will be doing taxes right up to October 15th and then some.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:03 AM

daveklepper

List all railroads providing common carrier passenger service into and out of Detroit during WWII and the stations they used.

New York Central System used the New York Central station. Fort Street Station was used by C&O, Pere Marquette, Pennsylvania, and Wabash. Grand Trunk Western used the Brush Street station. I don't recall if the B&O used the NYC or C&O into Detroit at that time; it did use the C&O at the end of its service into Detroit. In 1969-70, I rode all but PRR into and/or out of Detroit.

Johnny

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 4:30 AM

By the time the Virginian electrics went from the Norfolk and Western to the PRR, it was no longer the PRR but the Penn Central.   They went from the |N&W to the New Haven, then to  Penn Central, and then were retired by Conrail.

THe PRR did operate some second hand GREAT NORTHERN 11000V AC electrics in freight pusher service after the Cascade Tunnel electrification was replaced by through operation of diesels.

 

Since no onw has definite information on just which railroad used the exact design of the PRR N-5 caboose, and I provided all the other answers, I'll have to ask another question:

 

List all railroads providing common carrier passenger service into and out of Detroit during WWII and the stations they used.

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Monday, April 27, 2009 11:25 PM

Are you there, West Coast Al? 

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Monday, April 27, 2009 4:42 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

No knowledge, but a guess:  Norfolk & Western.  Everyone knows about the steam locos, and I believe they built most of their own coal hoppers - in the Roanoke Shops, and maybe some other places as well.  Other freight equipment and passenger equipment I'm less sure about, but would not be surprised. 

- PDN.

  Paul, your answer inspires mine:  The Virginian.  After N&W acquired Virginian (in 1959 IIRC) many of the Virginia's electric motors were sold to PRR because N&W was getting read of electric motive power and going over to diesel.  So I don't know if it would be Virginian or N&W.  Either way, if Paul is right I think he should get the win because he inspired me and I wound up in N&W territory anyway!

Peace

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, April 24, 2009 3:44 PM

No knowledge, but a guess:  Norfolk & Western.  Everyone knows about the steam locos, and I believe they built most of their own coal hoppers - probably in the Roanoke Shops, and maybe some other places as well.  Other freight equipment and passenger equipment I'm less sure about, but would not be surprised. 

- PDN.

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 24, 2009 10:53 AM

I'm out of ideas.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 24, 2009 6:32 AM

Again, anyone have specific knowledge?

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:39 AM

N5...NH? B&M?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:27 AM

Here is what I know:    The B&O bought some round-top ("wagon-top") steel 40-ft boxcars that always seemed identacle to me to the PRR's, and these were the only two railroads that had them.   The B-6 0-6-0 switcher was the standard for Washington Union Station, not lettered PRR but Washington Union Sttation.  The H&M had Stilwell designed cars but not identacle to the Erie's by any imagination, but although financially completely independent from the Pennsy, did buy identacle cars to the 50 that the Pennsy bought for the Newark  -  Hudson Terminal (World Trade Center) joint service.  These were a Gibbs design, not Stillwell.  And the Gibbs-designed cars built by the PRR for the Long Island Railroad were duplicated as the first steel cars for IRT subway which opened with copper-clad composite cars that were later transferred to the 2nd and 3rd Avenu elevated lines.   The IRT cut center doors into them later, which the LIRR never did.

I'll keep this open for a while in case anyone can add even one more and thus be the winner.   I believe one railroad did copy the N-5 caboose.    Somebody know which one? 

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:41 AM

daveklepper
Have I stumped everybody? If so, will the regulars please say so?  I will then give the answers that I know and ask another question.

I can speak only for myself, but I am plumb out of guesses.  -  a.s.

 

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:43 AM

Looks and sounds like a very complicated question...one in which one's own geography would be helpful and harmful.  H&M (the Tubes) also had Stillwell designed cars, for instance; the LIRR was 99% Pennsy; LV had great PRR influence because of it stock ownershp as did N&W as seen in its position light signals.   How many modeled themselves after the PRR if only because they interchanged soley with them?  The question leads to a lot of wandering.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:10 AM
Have I stumped everybody? If so, will the regulars please say so?  I will then give the answers that I know and ask another question.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 20, 2009 10:12 AM

The Pennsy in general designed its own equpment and built a lot of it in its own shops.  Name as many OTHER railroads, other than PRR subsidiaries, including PRSL, that used distinctive PRR-designed equipment as their own:  Locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars.  This can include terminal railroads and switching operations and second-hand applications.   Even rapid transit and interurban lines if you can think of any.

 Like the Chicago and Eastern Illinois used Erie Stillwell-design commuter coaches.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 19, 2009 5:42 AM

The Illinois Terminal's entrance into St. Louis, which is still in use as a road vehicular bridge, and I think was named for Senator McKinley, and was built by the interurban line, not by the highway department.

 

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Posted by wanswheel on Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:39 AM

What bridge named for a 20th century Congressman and Senator from Illinois is probably the most expensive thing ever built by an interurban railroad?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 17, 2009 7:43 AM

Mike, you are sufficiently close to getting all the answers that I have to declair you winner.   You have now listed all the sleepers, Peoria - St. Louis on the Illinois Terminal, Portland to Eugene on the Oregon Electric, and earlier posted Indianapolis to Louisville on the Indiana Railroad, formerly Interstate Corporation.

The longest through run of any interurban schedule was the Cincinnati and Lake Erie's through Detroit - Cincinnati service, but it didn't last and involved a different company moving its car between Toledo and Detroit.   So the longest single through run of one company was San Francisco to Chico California on the Sacremento Northern,   This began only after the Bay Bridge was opened and lasted only a few years until SN cut back interurban operations to Pittsburgh, CA, and then went freight-only.  Its Chico local service lasted until after WWII (the only Birney cars ever run with 3rd rail shoes; to get them to and from the Sacramento shops), and its Sacramento local service ran into WWII but was then merged into Pacific Gas and Elecctric's operation until busses were substituted.  Chico had the last nickle fare in the USA.   Between Sacramento and Pittsburgh, SN trains, both freight and passenger, use a railroad car car ferry, with energized trolley wire on the ferryboat.  Use of this boat, the Ramon, lasted through diesezation in the Post WWII. era.   But in very rough weather, passengers had to use the ferry without movement of the railcars onto the ferry, just a train meeting the boat at the other side.    

 

The longest point-to-pont travel on a single interurban system was from Fort Wayne to Louisville on the Indiana Railroad, but a change of cars in Indianapolis was always necessary.   And the Insull empire was all connected but required some travel over non-Insull lines, specifically, the Northern Indiana east of South bend connecting to the independent Winona.

 

It is Mike's turn to ask.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:27 PM

Sam Insull controlled interurban lines from Milwaukee to Louisville but there doesn't seem to have been any direct continuity of tracks between the two cities. Cincinnati and Toledo at far ends of Ohio were connected by the Cincinnati & Lake Erie Railroad. I don't know of two major cities further apart on one interurban line. The longest passenger interurban run was Cincinnati to Detroit, C&LE and the Eastern Michigan-Toledo Railway.  An even longer interurban freight run was Cleveland through Toledo to Cincinnati, Lake Shore Electric and C&LE. 

http://www.indianahistory.com/ihs_press/web_publications/railroad/keenan.html

http://www.davesrailpix.com/cle/htm/cle44.htm

Interstate had a sleeper Indianapolis to Louisville.

Oregon Electric had a sleeper Portland to Eugene.

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:18 AM

Wasn't the Empire State Railways line across NY longer...from Rochester to Utica at least.

And then Ohio and Indiana had some very long runs, too.

Gave a map to the Warehous Pt. Trolley Museum back in the 60's that showed all lines in the 20's and you could figure out how to travel by interuban virtually from Portland ME to Chicago with a few gaps but many changes and little sleeping.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:10 AM

The Illinois Terminal answer is correct, but is only one of three.   You are allowed to do research to find the other two.

Yes, longer than the North Shore and longer than the CSS&SB.

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