Trains.com

Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

856713 views
8197 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:02 AM

Oldsmobile should also be mentioned for its ads for the Vista-Cruiser station wagon with the California Zephyr in the background.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:07 AM

Bob, yes your turn.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:23 AM

Not to mention the Rocky Mountain Rocket 88, the Orange Buick Special, and the 20th Buick Century Buick Limited.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:40 PM

That last question sort of fell into my lap, as I have an interest in older cars as well as in railroads.

Now for the question:

What railroad was the first line to build into Marthasville (later Atlanta,) GA?  Careful, this might be a trick question, but isn't if you read it carefully.  It is a fairly straightforward question, really.

Bob Hanson

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, October 23, 2010 1:02 PM

From what I have found, the Western and Atlantic was the first road into Terminus/Marthasville.

Johnny

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, October 23, 2010 1:15 PM

I too would have guessed the W&A but in the event Johnny is wrong I'll say the Georgia RR.

Mark

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, October 23, 2010 1:24 PM

KCSfan

I too would have guessed the W&A but in the event Johnny is wrong I'll say the Georgia RR.

Mark

As I think more about it I believe the word "into" is key to this question. If my memory is correct, construction of the W&A was "started" at what later became Atalnta therefore it technically wouldn't have been built "into" there. This makes me feel a little more confident in my answer, the GA RR..

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, October 23, 2010 2:03 PM

At that time the full name of the railroad was the Georgia Railroad and Banking Co.

Mark

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Saturday, October 23, 2010 2:25 PM

Give Mark a box of used clearance cards!

The key was, indeed, the word "into."  The W&A was the first road in the area (there actually was no town called "Terminus", it was just a construction camp, much as the UP men called theirs "End of Track.") but the W&A built out of the area, not into it.

The Georgia Railroad entered Marthasville in September of 1845.  The town was renamed Atlanta several months later.

For bonus points - can anyone tell me who named Atlanta? And where the name was first used?

Over to you, Mark.

Bob

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, October 23, 2010 9:21 PM

Here's your next question. To the best of my knowledge there were only two streamlined trains  named after women. Name the two trains, the railroads that hosted them and their routes?

Mark

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:06 PM

Streamlined trains named for:

 real women: N&W's Pocahontas, Norfolk-Cincinnati, & GM&O's Ann Rutledge, Chicago-St. Louis

the Lackawanna's symbol for anthracite: Phoebe Snow, Hoboken-Buffalo

a race horse that was named for a real woman: CG's Nancy Hanks II, Savannah-Atlanta

 

Johnny

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Chicago, Ill.
  • 2,843 posts
Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:24 PM

Deggesty

Streamlined trains named for:

 real women: N&W's Pocahontas, Norfolk-Cincinnati, & GM&O's Ann Rutledge, Chicago-St. Louis

the Lackawanna's symbol for anthracite: Phoebe Snow, Hoboken-Buffalo

a race horse that was named for a real woman: CG's Nancy Hanks II, Savannah-Atlanta

 

"I won my fame and wide acclaim

for Lackawanna's splendid name

by keeping bright and snowy white

upon the Road of  Anthracite."  -  attrib. to Phoebe Snow, very approx. WWI.

I had thought that Phoebe Snow was a created advertising icon, something like Betty Crocker or Ann Page.  Am I wrong?  - al-in-chgo

 

 

al-in-chgo
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:02 AM

Oops, my mistake. There were actually three streamliners named for real women. I had forgotten about the Pocahontos which, along with the Ann Rutledge, Johnny has correctly identified. As Al has pointed out, Phoebe Snow was a made up name so that one doesn't count. Neither does the Nancy Hanks which like its twin, the Man o' War, was named for a race horse.

Two down and one to go. Who can identify the remaining train? 

Mark 

  • Member since
    April 2009
  • 50 posts
Posted by Southerngreen1401 on Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:14 AM

There was two other steamliners name in honor of women.  Queen Cresant and Blue Bell.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:28 AM
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, October 24, 2010 4:39 PM

Southerngreen1401

There was two other steamliners name in honor of women.  Queen Cresant and Blue Bell.

The first train you mention was actually the Southern Ry's Queen & Crescent. It was named for the two cities it connected, Cincinnati (the Queen City) and New Orleans (the Crescent City).

I am familiar with the Bluebonnet, the Blue Comet, the Royal Blue, the Bluebird, the Banner Blue, the Southern Belle and the Liberty Bell but I've never heard of the Blue Bell. If you have any info about such a train please share it with us.

Mark

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 2,535 posts
Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, October 24, 2010 4:44 PM

wanswheel

C&NW Kate Shelley 400, Chicago to Boone, Iowa

That's the other one I had in mind. However since Johnny correctly identified two of the three trains I'm going to declare him the winner.

Mark

  • Member since
    April 2009
  • 50 posts
Posted by Southerngreen1401 on Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:26 PM

You have the wrong Queen City.  The city is Charlotte, N.C.  Charleston, SC was name for King Charles and Charlotte was his queen.  I lived in both cities.  Both North, and South Carolina along with Georgia were a part of the Carolina Colony before they broke them apart in the early 1700.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, October 24, 2010 10:03 PM

Southerngreen1401

You have the wrong Queen City.  The city is Charlotte, N.C.  Charleston, SC was name for King Charles and Charlotte was his queen.  I lived in both cities.  Both North, and South Carolina along with Georgia were a part of the Carolina Colony before they broke them apart in the early 1700.

When I was growing up in South Carolina, fifty miles from Charlotte, I knew of Charlotte as "The Queen City of the South," and Cincinnati as "The Queen City," though it was also known for a time as "The Queen City of the West. It is true that Charlotte (named for King George III's wife, Charlotte of Mecklenburg ) is older than Cincinnati, which was not named until after the Revolution. King Charles II's wife was Catherine of Braganza.

The route from Cincinnati to New Orleans via Chattanooga and Birmingham was long known as the "Queen and Crescent Route," and, for many years, the Southern Railway and its predecessors which operated the train had one called the Queen and Crescent.

From the history of South Carolina that I studied in the sixth grade, I learned that Carolina (established in 1663 and separated into two provinces in 1729) was a separate colony from Georgia, and it came into being when King Charles II gave a large area to certain lords (known as "Lords Proprietors") who had supported him. Charles Town (later, Charleston) was named for this king. The colony of Georgia was established in 1732 during the reign of King George II and was named for him. It never was a part of Carolina.

I know this that some of this post is Off Topic, but I felt constrained to state some facts known from history, both railroad and non-railroad.

Johnny

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, October 24, 2010 10:21 PM

KCSfan

 wanswheel:

C&NW Kate Shelley 400, Chicago to Boone, Iowa

 

That's the other one I had in mind. However since Johnny correctly identified two of the three trains I'm going to declare him the winner.

Mark

Thank you, Mark. I did not think of the CNW as having a train named for one of its employees. I did think of the KCS train named for a generic lady of the Old South, but I knew that it (as well as the Phoebe Snow) did not fit your description. Note Nancy Hanks and Man O'War were fraternal twins.Smile

New question: how was it possible to eat in Chattanooga while traveling in Virginia? And, to eat in Alexandria while traveling in Tennessee? Be specific, as to road(s) and train.

Johnny

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 25, 2010 4:08 AM

The mistakes in the routing in the song Chattanooga Choo Choo

 

Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo.   Track 29 (actually an LIRR track).    YOu can give me a shine.     Can you afford, to board the Chattanooga Choo Choo?   I've got my fare, and a trifle to spare.   YOu leave the Pennsylvania Station around a quarter of four.   Read a magazine and you're in Baltimore.   Dinner in the diner.  NOthing could be finer.   The to have your h_m and eggs in Carolina.   (I substitute grits and eggs.  NOthing not Kosher)    When you hear the engine blowing eight to the bar.   The you'll know that Tennessee is not very far.   Shovel a little more ocal in.   Got to keep her rollin'.   Whoo Whoo Chattanooga, there you are.   There's goin' to be a certain party at the station.   Satin and Lace.   I used to call funny face.   She's goin' to cry.   Until I tell here that I'll never roam.   Chattanooga Choo Choo, won't you choo choo me home.

The only logical routing from NY is PRR-Southern-N&W-Southern.   Leaving NY at 15:45 should have you in Alexandria around dinner time, but the train with schedule that best approximates this in of course the Tennesean, in the immediate latter WWII period.   That explains the other anomoly..

  • Member since
    April 2009
  • 50 posts
Posted by Southerngreen1401 on Monday, October 25, 2010 6:27 AM

The South Carolina history textbook that my son is using today in the third grade, states that both Georgia and North Carolina were apart of the Carolina Colony By King Charles and Queen Charlotte in 1660.  The NorthCarolina Transportation Museum has in their record that the Queen is name for Charlotte,  NC.  As for the"Lords Proprietors" Sir Williams Hilton is a distance family member.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Monday, October 25, 2010 7:42 AM

The Georgia history texts that I studied (twice) in school said that the area between the Savannah River and Florida was disputed territory and that England established the Goergia colony to protect the Carolina colony.  It was never, accoring to the texts, a part of Carolina.

You pays yer money and you takes yer choice.

Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, October 25, 2010 12:11 PM

daveklepper

The mistakes in the routing in the song Chattanooga Choo Choo

 

Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo.   Track 29 (actually an LIRR track).    YOu can give me a shine.     Can you afford, to board the Chattanooga Choo Choo?   I've got my fare, and a trifle to spare.   YOu leave the Pennsylvania Station around a quarter of four.   Read a magazine and you're in Baltimore.   Dinner in the diner.  NOthing could be finer.   The to have your h_m and eggs in Carolina.   (I substitute grits and eggs.  NOthing not Kosher)    When you hear the engine blowing eight to the bar.   The you'll know that Tennessee is not very far.   Shovel a little more ocal in.   Got to keep her rollin'.   Whoo Whoo Chattanooga, there you are.   There's goin' to be a certain party at the station.   Satin and Lace.   I used to call funny face.   She's goin' to cry.   Until I tell here that I'll never roam.   Chattanooga Choo Choo, won't you choo choo me home.

The only logical routing from NY is PRR-Southern-N&W-Southern.   Leaving NY at 15:45 should have you in Alexandria around dinner time, but the train with schedule that best approximates this in of course the Tennesean, in the immediate latter WWII period.   That explains the other anomoly..

Sounds good, Dave, but you did not tell us how you could eat in Chattanooga while in Virginia nor eat in Alexandria while in Tennessee.

Johnny

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Monday, October 25, 2010 3:06 PM

The Southern's Tennessean equipment order included two diners, Alexandria, and Virginia.  If you ate a meal in either of these diners the situation you describe would be possible.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, October 25, 2010 5:16 PM

AWP290

The Southern's Tennessean equipment order included two diners, Alexandria, and Virginia.  If you ate a meal in either of these diners the situation you describe would be possible.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

Bob, are you sure about the second name? Since you named one diner correctly, I have the impression that you know the correct name of the other. If this is what you meant, you are the winner. 

Both diners were part of the original equipment of the Tennessean (in 1941); they were still in operation in 1963 (I ate dinner in one of them in May of 1963), and I imagine that they were used as long as the diners ran Washington-Knoxville. I have the impression that after the diner operation was changed Roanoke to Bristol on 41 and Bristol to Roanoke on 46 an N&W diner was used (I ate breakfast in an N&W diner on 41 in September of 1966).

Johnny

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Monday, October 25, 2010 5:44 PM

The diners were:

3300-3302, all named Virginia, 3303, named Chattanooga (that's probably the one you were looking for), and 3304, named Alexandria.

Sources:  1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book; also Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7, Southeastern Railroads, by W. David Randall.

If you think about it, either answer would suffice, as both fill your requirements.

Bob Hanson

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Monday, October 25, 2010 6:00 PM

Oh, yeah - I need to ask a question.

As much as I love the old passenger trains, this question does not necessarily pertain to passenger service.

In the later years of the Georgia Group of railroads (A&WP-WofA-GaRR), the diesel units were run interchangeably between roads (GaRR and West Point Route.)  This practice started only in the early 1960's, however, and in the 1950's the units stayed on home rails.

Why?   (I didn't learn the reason until 10 years after I left the A&WP.)

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, October 25, 2010 6:10 PM

AWP290

The diners were:

3300-3302, all named Virginia, 3303, named Chattanooga (that's probably the one you were looking for), and 3304, named Alexandria.

Sources:  1956 Southern Railway passenger car diagram book; also Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 7, Southeastern Railroads, by W. David Randall.

If you think about it, either answer would suffice, as both fill your requirements.

Bob Hanson

Yes, leaving Washington, you could eat a late breakfast and lunch in the car named Chattanooga while in Virginia, or eat lunch  and an early dinner in the same car on the way back to Washington, again in Virginia. And, you could eat breakfast in Alexandria, in Tennessee, on the way to Washington, or take dinner in the same car, again in Tennessee, while on your way to Knoxville or west of Knoxville.

You answered the basic question, named the train and one of the roads (or, did you peek at Dave Klepper's answer?Smile)

The three cars named Virginia were operated on the Southerner, according to Robert Wayner (Car NamesNumbers and Consists). So, you could eat several different meals in Virginia while in many different states not named "Virginia."

I never did really note which car I was in when I ate breakfast out of Knoxville or when I ate dinner out of Bristol, but I did see both cars in service on the Tennessean.

Johnny

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • 135 posts
Posted by AWP290 on Monday, October 25, 2010 8:58 PM

To go back to the previous question for a moment, the train was, indeed, the Tennessean.  You could  have a meal in Chattanooga aboard the Virginia, or conversely, you could have a meal in Virginia aboard the Chattanooga.

And you could have a meal in Alexandria while in Tennessee.

Bob Hanson

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter