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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 18, 2019 10:48 AM

Were the eight-wheeled steam locomotives 2-6-0s or 4-4-0s?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 18, 2019 6:21 AM

It wasn't labelled SP.  Don't forget a lot of lines that were folded into SP still existed in 1912.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 18, 2019 3:26 AM

Southern Pacific, and possibly one was lettered SP for use on the East Bay SP electrification while it was still SP before renamed Interurban Electric and passenger-only. Or it may have been intended for the Portland suburban electrfication, also labeled SP.   I imagine they all ended up on Pacific Electric, because that was the only one of the four SP subsidiaries with electrifications that had a substantial freight business handled with electric power.    

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 15, 2019 6:13 AM

This giant western railroad system bought around a dozen interurban-style 60 ton electric locomotives from Baldwin-Westinghouse with the intention of using them on various lines.  At least one of them was delivered lettered for a system component more famous for having eight-wheel steam locomotives than electrics.  Name the big system, the component, and ID where it was supposed to be used.  All of the B-W motors ended up on the same system member.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 14, 2019 8:36 AM

Branford got a gift of an operable Red Arrow St. Louis 1948 car, but needs to reguage the trucks.  Its two inoperable mates at Branford (Shore Line Trolley) were then sold to MUNI to be rebuilt as double-end PCCs, and either one or two will be painted for Red Arrow (possibly one for SEPTA).  The MUNI "Torpedo" PCC now painted for Red Arrow will then be repainted, possibly a MUNI scheme or Illinois Terminal or Dallas.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 2:45 PM

daveklepper
But that does not seem to stop SF's MUNI, witih Brookfield's help, from making two of them to PCCs for SF's E Line.

MUNI 1007 painted in PST (Red Arrow) colors has been on MUNI as a double-ended PCC since it was built in 1948.  The other "Philadelphia" cars are painted for either Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co. or Philadelphia Transportation Co.

1055 in PTC paint was built as PTC 2122

1060 in PRT paint was built as PTC 1060

I was in San Francisco over the weekend.  Nice parade of PCCs on Market and the Embarcadero, with single-end cars covering F (Market and Wharves) and double-enders covering E(Embarcadero).  Also saw a couple of PCCs on J Church on pull-outs.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 1:18 PM

Brilliners electrically were identicle to PCCs with the same motors, automatic accelerator, etc, but had Brill's own inside-frame trucks, a different body style but still quite streamlined, similar interior lighting and seats.  Baltimore had one sample, Philadelphia two, I believe, and one or two other cities, which ones I have forgotten.  The double-end Red Arrow cars were not Brilliners, although the body was a true double-end version of them, because they had the same trucks and all electrical equipment that the 1931 cars.  (Similarly, the 1948 Red Arrow St. Louis cars were not true PCCs, with outside-frame drop-equalizer solid-wheel trucks and a control system also similar to the 1931 Brill cars.  But that does not seem to stop SF's MUNI, witih Brookfield's help, from making two of them to PCCs for SF's E Line.  A few difficulties have shown themselves, but they should be overcome.)

The 10 Brill Washington DC cars were similar to 10 from St. Louis, and preceded both PCCs and Brilliners.

I think they were carried on PRR books as MP-38s or MP-39s.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:58 AM

Atlantic City had a fair number of standard Brill streetcars.  The streamliners were built by Brill and called "Brilliners".  Washington DC and maybe Baltimore had a few, but they also had PCCs. Red Arrow had some double-enders that were similar.

  The interurban was the "Shore Fast Line", the Atlantic City & Shore,  between Atlantic City and Ocean City, which operated with third rail between the cities.

It looks like PRR acquired the Atlantic City streetcars along with the West Jersey and Seashore, which later became part of PRR's portion of the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines.

You'll have to tell me what the PRR designation was for the Brllliner. 

I should have something posted by tomorrow.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:15 AM

Right. Go on if you wish, or do you wish to leave it me?

And of couse ask a new question. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 9:15 AM

Atlantic City?  The "Miss America" fleet?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 10, 2019 9:27 AM

Part of the same operation, the PRR also had some real interurban cars sharing tracks in the small city, but these pre-dated PRR control and may never had had PRR type designation.

The streetcars included a modern fleet, that as a fleet was unique to the small city, but about three or four other systems had one or two samples.

The DL&W had Phoebe Snow.  This modern fleet had a connection more general to the fair sex.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:39 AM

Not New Orleans (or NYCity Harlem) or "Caladonia," but the specific city or large town is not very very far from a large city that does rhyme.

And thanks for some terrific listening.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:21 PM

Is the city homophonous with this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR6pHtiNT_k

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 5, 2019 12:23 PM

What streetcars, not mu, not interurbans, not suburban equipment, but actual streetcars, operated by a PRR subsidiary, were included in PRR passenger car rosters and even had a type letter-designation.  Name the city and you are a winner, but do supply any other information you can.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 4, 2019 12:20 PM

daveklepper

West Point?

 

The Atlanta & LaGrange was extended to West Point Ga. in 1852, meeting the Montgomery & West Point there.  For reasons I haven't been able to find, the M&WP was built to standard gauge, the A&LG (by now the A&WP) used the five-foot gauge more common to the American South.  West Point got a lot of mileage for a little more than a decade as a transload point between the two railroads. The M&WP was badly damaged in the last days of the Civil War, with the Battle of West Point occuring after Appamatox.  Rebuilt to five foot gauge, the M&WP came under common management with the A&WP, eventually coming under ACL/L&N control.  The M&WP merged with the connecting Western Railway of Alabama in 1870. The combined A&WP/WofA system of a couple of hundred miles became known as the West Point Route.  West Point itself remains as a small city along the Georgia/Alabama border, but with little local rail activity.  The Southern Railway's Crescent and Piedmont Limiteds operated via the West Point Route and L&N between Atlanta, Montgomery and New Orleans.  The WPR, along with the Georgia Railroad, was rolled into the Family Lines/Seaboard System/CSX system and remains important to CSX.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 4, 2019 8:20 AM

West Point?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 4, 2019 6:17 AM

The small system took the name of the city where the gauge change was.  One of the lines was built to standard gauge, regauged after considerable damage to match the other line, then both were regauged to standard gauge.  The small system operated as part of a well-known passenger route, retained its identity into the 1970s and remains an important line for its current owner.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 4, 2019 6:14 AM

I thought the Clinchfield was, like the Virginian, substantially built long after the gauge change (from 5') of most Southern railroads.

(Would you believe I'd never heard of George Carter before checking on this?)

Apparently more than the usual death, destruction and flame associated with so late a construction time period:

http://www.stateoffranklin.net/johnsons/clinchfield/wild_crews.pdf

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 4, 2019 5:54 AM

Clinchfield?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 1, 2019 8:05 AM

daveklepper

North American or foreign?

 

North American

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 31, 2019 2:21 PM

North American or foreign?

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 31, 2019 6:47 AM

This regional system took its name from a former gauge change point.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:27 PM

rcdrye

Hall-Scott delivered the cars to Hong Kong in 1921, though it took until 1922 before they entered service. The railway was the Kowloon-Canton Railway, running from the mainland part of the Hong Kong Colony to the Chinese city of Canton.  The cars became the "Taipo Belle" (1936) and "Canton Belle" (1937), with a streamlined cowl, armchair seats, cocktail bar and smoking lounge.

I can't find a definite answer on the trailer coach, but it was either wrecked or converted to an air-conditioned lounge car "Aurora".

https://industrialhistoryhk.org/kcrc-railway-british-section-3-early-years-1910-1940/ 

Correct!  The trailer car was converted into a reserved saloon. Ref. "Kowloon-Canton Railway (British Section) - A History" (1990) P.115 by Robert J. Phillips. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 3:38 PM

Impressive question and answer!

Look forward to RC's question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 10:04 AM

Hall-Scott delivered the cars to Hong Kong in 1921, though it took until 1922 before they entered service. The railway was the Kowloon-Canton Railway, running from the mainland part of the Hong Kong Colony to the Chinese city of Canton.  The cars became the "Taipo Belle" (1936) and "Canton Belle" (1937), with a streamlined cowl, armchair seats, cocktail bar and smoking lounge.

I can't find a definite answer on the trailer coach, but it was either wrecked or converted to an air-conditioned lounge car "Aurora".

https://industrialhistoryhk.org/kcrc-railway-british-section-3-early-years-1910-1940/

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 12:47 AM

In 1921, Hall-Scott Motor Car Company of San Francisco received an order from a city in the far east. The order included two diesel railcars powered by six-cylinder 150hp internal combustion engines using high-grade kerosene as fuel and *one trailer car. The diesel railcars accommodate 60 first and third class passengers while the trailer could seat 80 in second and third class. Electric light and fans to aid ventilation was installed on these cars. In 1936 and 1937, both diesel railcars were converted into a streamlined parlor-lounge-observation railcar for international through trains service for this railway, and they were given two different names. 

The name of this railway, the name of these railcars after the convert in 1936/1937, and what happened to that trailer car?

Tags: Hall-Scott
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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, October 27, 2019 11:40 PM

Please give me one more day for the next question, thanks a lot! 

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, October 24, 2019 9:11 AM

Good Good The Polar Bear became the Polar Bear Express in a rebirth in 1964.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0hjZPHetjc

3 minute drone video

Question to Jones 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, October 24, 2019 6:24 AM

Miningman

..but the train I'm looking for didn't go to these locations. 

The Polar Bear/ The Polar Bear Express of the Ontario Northland Railway?

 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 20, 2019 2:55 PM

Miningman
but the train I'm looking for didn't go to these locations.

I know.  It's a hint, remember?  Wouldn't want to telegraph the answer too boldly... (ahem!)

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