Poassibly the SP Overland Lmtd, Oakland Mole to Oakland diwntown?
IC's ATS was similar to C&NW's - in fact Amtrak used ex-IC locomotives to lead on Zephyr detours out of Chicago in the 1970s. Eventually the "Cab Signal from Hell" was developed that could be used on a variety of ATS, ATC and cab signal systems. PTC hasn't made things any simpler.
In the early 1960s this western railroad cut back the route of its longest-running name train by several miles, because a turntable was no longer needed for a steam locomotive. Name the railroad and the train, which lasted until Amtrak.
Yes, I have long had the impression that ATS was installed there because the IC had trackage rights; I could see no other reason.
Johnny
Was that the section between Hayleyville and Jasper Alabama used by the IC to get to Birmingham? From what I can see on a map it's a pretty curve-heavy piece of railroad. IC used ATS which I think was basically compatible with Southern's system. The MAS there may be due to the "clear or restricting" characteristic of some ATS systems, where a penalty application could result in really bad train handling on curved or hilly stretches.
The way I read the question, Chicago was the only intercahnge point. In the sixties, through New York-Los Angeles service through New Orleans was begun, using, of course, the NOUPT station in New Orleans. I took advantage of this service in 1968, riding in an SP car from Houston to Tuscaloosa. In 1980, I rode from New Orleans to Los Angeles in a Southern car that was in this service.
New question: The Southern Railway System had many miles of road with ATS, and almost all of the lines with ATS were connected at various points. But--there was a 40.3 mile section that was not connected to any other Southern ATS equipped section. Where was this section, and why was ATS installed there?
In 1966, the maximum speed allowed on this line was 45 mph.
Got them both. The NYC <-> Golden State cars were initially handled in the Chicagoan westbound and the Commodore Vanderbilt eastbound.The Broadway/CZ car lasted until 1958.
The other "coast-to-coast" route ran through New Orleans, where the "in" and "out" stations were a mile and a half apart, so different cars were used for each segment, with luggage transfer handled by a special representative.
rcdrye Before UP's "City" trains moved from C&NW to Milwakee Road in 1955, only two of the through sleeping car routes between the east and west coast via Chicago used the same Chicago station for arrival and departure. Name the railroad pairs. One of the routes was among the first discontinued not long after the UP move.
Before UP's "City" trains moved from C&NW to Milwakee Road in 1955, only two of the through sleeping car routes between the east and west coast via Chicago used the same Chicago station for arrival and departure. Name the railroad pairs. One of the routes was among the first discontinued not long after the UP move.
Correct, except that "extension routes from the Shaker...." (Shaker mostly mu PCC operated) should be intended for the east-west rapid transit lines operated similarly to Shaker Rapid Transit and including some rapid-transot-surface operation with some surface lines reaching dowtown via the rapid transit line. The mu operation was never implemented because the east-west rapid transit line was built as a high-floor high-platform quasi-heavy rapid transit line instead. But it does share some track with Shaker, and East 55th has both low platorms for Shaker and high for the "Rapid." The MU operation in Toronto was a success, as it was on Shaker, Boston, and Pac.El., and was a stopgap until the Bloor-Danforth subway was build, just as much earlier Peter Witts with trailers were a stopgap until the Yong St. Subway, Toronto's 1st, was opened.
I cannot agree that trailer and/or mu operation does not increase capacity. But often it does not increase capacity enough to rule-out real rapid transit and a dedicated RoW (and the gigantic expense of the needed construction!)..
Most modern light rail operations have some mu operation, and most try for as much dedicated RoW as psosible.
Your question, please.
Toronto (4' 10 7/8" gauge") got two groups of standard gauge PCCs from Cleveland. The first group was built for Louisville was not originally wired for MU (all PCCs were MU capable, not all had the wiring). Toronto added MU wiring, cut away the end skirsts, but did not install couplers at first. The second group was built for Cleveland and was wired for MU, but did not have couplers. The original intent was that the cars be used for extension routes from the Shaker Rapid Transit line, but the planned downtown connection was never completed. The original Cleveland cars received couplers first, then the ex-Louisville cars.
Both Cleveland and Toronto, despite a long history of trailer operation, found the use of trains in postwar mixed street traffic added little to capacity, and led to more accidents and delays. Toronto's MU operation was displaced by the Blair-Danforth subway. The postwar MU streetcars were split up to replace prewar cars on remaining surface routes.
Big hints: For their second ownder, the PCCs had to cross a border and have the gauge changed. And the reason that actual mu operation ended was very similar to why the first never started.
A large transit system bought PCC cars equipped for MU operation except for the couplers themselves. Why? They were never used for their intended mu opeation. Why? But they were equipped with couplers and used as mus when sold to a different system. Where, what route and why, and what ended mu operation there?
Thats very interesting rcdrye. I think it may be a case of too little too late but surely Canadian Pacific was informed of this decision to re-outfit and rebuild 2 Sleepers for this service. Even added the 'u' eh? Now CP looks like a bunch of stinkers to me.
The REAL and actual reason probably will never surface in public. CPR simply cut ALL passenger services as money losing troublesome nonsense by 1960. They gave it a good effort previous to that but handed over everything with glee to CN.
The CPR had over 60 trains a day just on the Toronto big board and virtually overnight it went to 3, across the whole country coast to coast.
The Canadian was one of them that survived because killing that would have caused a public meltdown, wailing and knashing of teeth and pitchforks and torches crowds at corporate HQ. The government would audit them in and out for eternity and never allow its discontinuance.
The seriously overcrowded train to Havelock, a local that became a commuter train without the commuter equipment was another. They tried and tried but to no avail to kill that one. Today it is a GO Train with proper equipment.
The third was that train to Buffalo/New York City. I suspect being International in nature there were some tricky legal issues involved. Apparently when it was sleepers it was well patronized but CP wanted out but couldn't get out all the way. So they tricked everyone with the RDC replacement, a daytime run, and leave the sleepers to its connection in Buffalo. This fulfilled any agreements at much less cost but was a dirty move. I rode that train and there were less than 8 people aboard the whole way and that on a weekend. I hear tell it ran empty many times arriving in Buffalo.
Anyway... the reason CP gave to the world and the people that decide these things was that Penn Central's equipment was "decrepit".
This was probably very true and not in dispute as David K. has well given the reasons. Amazing how it fit their real agenda though. Seems Penn Central was in a race to make it right and lost the race.
The "Buffalo" is much reduced in importance as depicted here leaving Toronto Union with a single A unit 4095 with REA express on the headend and old heavweights behind. 6/1968 Mike Schafer/Joseph Testagrose Collection
Doesn't sound or look as if the CPR's equipment was much better.
2857 rapidly accelerating eastbound from Sunnyside with "Buffalo". (No. 324 Sunday Only due at Sunnyside 9.04 A.M. which is 30 minutes later than No. 322 Daily ex Sunday. These trains carried sleepers originating in New York, Boston, Pittsburg and Cleveland). Note the lack of traffic on Lake Shore Boulevard West in "Toronto The Good" on this Sunday morning in November 1959. Dave Page
Above: Just before the great cull of all passenger service by the CPR.
So David Klepper gets the answer correct as far as the 'official' story goes.
Thanks big time to rcdrye for supplying the information that Penn Central tried in vain to fix this situation. Including the 'u', imagine that. That alone should have kept the service. Canadian Pacific gets a big black mark in my book for this snub.
CP's decision came on the heels of PC's rebuildng of two ex-PRR Budd 10-6's specifically for the Toronto service, renaming Sturgeon Rapids and Scioto Rapids to Toronto Islands and Toronto Harbour (yes, with the "u"). The cars were released for service in September 1970. I don't know if they were ever used for as intended.
I believe the end of the use of Mott Haven as comisary and passenger-car cleaning and servicing had something to do with it. PC transfered all this to the limited storage tracks at GCT. This meant that servicing there was not up to CP standards, and cars would be returned to CP requiring more work. Also turn-around time in NY was not reliably short enough for only two sleepers to handle the service. It had been one Central and on CP. Even two Centrals and one CP might have problems.
The question:
Through service to Buffalo and New York from Toronto ended on a day schedule Apr. 25, 1964.
There was still a night sleeper service from Toronto to Buffalo and New York City but it was replaced by a new day time scheduled train by Canadian Pacific using 2 RDC's each day and to Buffalo only. The first of this new train #321 was on Oct 25, 1970 with RDC-4 # 9251 and RDC-2 #9103.
Canadian Pacific citied a very specific reason for ending the sleeper car service with the then Penn Central and substituting their own RDC's on a day light run only.
What was the reason given by Canadian Pacific for the switch over?
(Remarkably this lone train carried on through Penn Central, Conrail, then CP 100% takeover of the TH&B on who's track it ran on and Via Rail. It was discontinued Apr. 25, 1981.)
RDC-2 9115 and RDC-4 92?? Central Terminal Buffalo November 1971 Mike Harrington
Happy to give it to Miningman, unless he wishes to give it to me.
I rode B&M Boston - Troy and return to visit a girlfriend at Skidmore in 1952. A friend at RPI let me flop in his dorm-room since his roommate was away. He was also dating a Skidmore girl. Also a railfan.
The two post-1958 Pullman "lines" on the New York Central were joint with Southern (Chicago-Asheveille) and C&O (Chicago-Huntington WV year-round, others seasonally). Because both lines got to Chicago via the Big Four, they used Central Station, not LaSalle. The 6DBR-lounge on the Montreal Limited was the last sleeper-lounge operated out of Grand Central on former NYC routes. There was a seven month gap after 5/1/1971 before sleeping cars returned to Grand Central.
B&M's car was discontinued before WWII. In fact, B&M passenger service to Troy ended in 1957.
I give it to Miningman for the quick answer, but you guys work it out.
The Central did have a through sleeper at one time Boston North Station to Chicago via the Minute Man B&M Boston - Troy, local NYC train to Albany, and I think the Commodore Vanderbilt to Chicago. Possibly still running. The Central carried C&O Pullman-operated sleepers Cincinnati - Chicago. Possibly Southern sleepers to destinstions north of Cincinnati.
The through sleepers over the CP Chicago - Detroit - Toronto were railroad-operated.
Lounge Sleeping Car (Beverages)...New York and Montreal—Double Bedrooms. Buffet Breakfast Service.
Sleeping Cars...New York and Montreal—Double Bedrooms.
New York and Montreal—Roomettes, Double Bedrooms.
Dining Car...Whitehall and Montreal.
Coaches...New York and Montreal.
Coaches...New York to Montreal. Through Reclining Seats (Unreserved).
Sleeping Cars...New York to Montreal. (Open 10:00 p.m.) (Railroad owned)
13 Double Bedroom [610]
10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom [611]
10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom [612]
Dining Car...Whitehall to Montreal (Breakfast).
6 Double Bedroom—Lounge [613]
10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom [614]
13 Double Bedroom (Except Saturday) [615]
Coaches...Montreal to New York. Through Reclining Seats (Unreserved).
Sleeping Cars...Montreal to New York. (Open 9:45 p.m.) (Railroad owned)
13 Double Bedroom [1033]
10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom [1032]
10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom [1031]
Dining Car...Montreal to Whitehall (Beverages-Supper).
6 Double Bedroom—Lounge [1030]
10 Roomette, 6 Double Bedroom [1029]
13 Double Bedroom (Except Saturday) [1028]
Toronto - New York City
Here is the NYC on TH&B Trackage just having left Hamilton in the background and heading to Buffalo.
NYC 4042 EMD E8A leads TH&B 372 from Hamilton to Welland and Buffalo enroute to New York City. This equipment ran through from Buffalo to Toronto over the NYC to Welland, TH&B to Hamilton and CPR CNR Joint Section although the diesels were changed at Hamilton. Stoney Creek, Ont. 8/21/1963 Peter Cox
Perhaps New York -Montreal connecting with the D&H and New York-Toronto with the TH&B/Canadian Pacific.
New York Central definitely operated sleeping cars on these routes. Sorry cannot expand at the moment got to go to work.. later.
After New York Central terminated its contract with Pullman in 1958, it continued to operate sleeping cars until the Penn Central merger. Timetable notes said "sleeping cars operated by New York Central unless otherwise noted." NYC had dropped almost all interline operations (P&LE doens't count...) before the pullout.
There remained two Pullman "lines" on NYC trains after 1958, cars carried for connecting lines. Name the two connecting railroads for Pullman cars. Both of these were gone by the PC merger.
NYC also operated sleepers to two major cities with connecting railroads, with NYC supplying cars and attendants. Both of these operations survived into the Penn Central, one of them lasting until Amtrak. Name the cities and the connecting railroads.
Still waiting for RC's question
John L. Lewis. You got everything else right, so ask the next question please.
Boston & Albany (New York Central) got the first 2-8-4 Berkshires in 1926 for use in the mountain range of the same name. Eventually a total of 55 in four classes were bought, all from Lima, between 1926 and 1930. All were initially lettered for B&A. B&A got NYC's FTs, FA1s and F3s during and immediately after WWII, and the Berkshires were sent off to other NYC districts, where the lettering on the tenders was changed to "New York Central". B&A's Berkshires had the straight Elesco feedwater heater hung off the front of the boiler.
Neighboring Boston & Maine, also crossing the Berkshires, bought 25 in 1928 and 1929. Because B&M preferred the arched Coffin feedwater heater, these engines had a distinct appearance. (I haven't foud out who they were likened to, but I have a few candidates...) B&M's were less successful, partly because B&M used a different frame to accomodate some firebox changes and a different trailing truck booster arrangement. This left the firebox partly supported by the rear of the trailing truck which resulted in many cracks and a tendency to derail when backing up Ten went to SP, seven to AT&SF in 1945. B&M also was an early user of FT and F2 diesels.
A large Eastern railroad system pioneered a specific type of modern steam lomotive, named and operated in a specific geographical region, and used their until dieselization, when many were used elsewhere on the system where routs had not yet been dieselized. Identification noted on the tenders, the road name, was usually changed, repainted, when these locomotives were relocated.
There are several examples of this modern type in steam today, but none of these originals.
A much smaller similar system then bought near-duplicates of these originals for the same purpose on a parallel and competitive route, but made one accessory change that dramtically altered the appearance and reminded people of a somewhat controversial person that often made news headlines.
Both lines were among the first to be dieselized on their respective systems despite the success of this modern type of locomotive.
Name the systems and routes and locomotive type and why the repainting of road name on the first example.
I'm going to give you this one. SP bought 10 B-W Class D's for Pacific Electric, one for the Peninsular Railway on the San Francisco peninsula, three for Oregon (which stayed there 'til 1941, when all three went to the Waterloo, Cedar Falls and Northern) and one more identical to the PE units except for a pantograph. Intended for use on the Oakland Mole as a passenger switcher, it was used for about 18 months on SP's IE lines for freight service before getting sent to Pacific Electric as their 1611. On the SP it was lettered Southern Pacific, but it was offically the property of the Central Pacific, still existing on paper, and the legal owner of the Oakland Mole. Big CP initials showed ownership. CP continued to exist until 1959, when it was formally merged into SP along with T&NO, H&TC and other lines that had retained separate IDs to that point.
There's a picture of it on Getty Images, still in SP paint with CP letters, but operating on PE, with a PE pneumatic pole instead of its original pan. Copyright prevents posting it here.
Must be the Oregon and California for the Portland-area electrification. Was not merged into the SP until sometime in the 1920s. I assume the mus must have been similarly lettered originally.
daveklepper Were the eight-wheeled steam locomotives 2-6-0s or 4-4-0s?
Were the eight-wheeled steam locomotives 2-6-0s or 4-4-0s?
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