rcdryeAmerican Milemaster was definitely 1939, but it was pretty conventional under the covers ...
Part of why I think the car is "innovative" is that IIRC it is the first 'normal' lightweight design Pullman touted, unlike the George Pullman with its crack-prone trucks and high-dollar rustlessness or the Advance/Progress with that funky articulation. American Milemaster was like a kind of normal counterpoint to the American Railroads S1: a thoroughly modern-looking parabolic-ended car that could run in any train and didn't need the equivalent of airplane mechanics to work on it. In part it seems ordinary because so much of the burgeoning postwar streamliner fiesta followed its design idea and language.
Part of what makes it potentially 'special' is that its life as a demonstrator was so short. Perhaps there is a record in the Pullman archives of where it ran during that time.
Where is Conrail track analyzer car 22 now?
American Milemaster was definitely 1939, but it was pretty conventional under the covers. Sister Muskingum River (1940) was the first car Pullman built that was stainless steel and not just stainless steel sheathed. No shotwelding, though. Pullman never did like paying patent fees. The George M. Pullman was all aluninum, even most of the original truck frames, as were a couple of other things (like the Railplane) that Pullman built for the Century of Progress. The "Advance" and "Progress" were 1936-built (renamed 1937 to "Bear Flag" and "California Republic".
A quick dig through Pullman records for 1939 show the new cars were a mix of these types, for PRR, NYC, AT&SF, CRI&P and the Pullman pool:
10 rmt 5DBR (plan 4072), "Cascade"
12 DupSBR, 5DBR (plan 4066) "Brook"
2 DBR, 1Cpt, 1DR (plan 4082) "River" (including "American Milemaster")
17Rmt or 18 Rmt (Plan 4068) "City" (some had a porter's section)
4DBR, 4 Cpt, 2DR (Plan 4069) "Imperial"
13DBR (Plan 4071) "County"
6DBR Lounge (Plan 4086) "Falls"
5DBR Lounge (Plan 4088) "Thunder Mountain" "Phantom Valley"
10Sec, 4 RMT (Plan 4089) "Odessa Lake" "Lawn Lake"
8Sec, 2DBR, 2Cpt (Plan 4058) "Garden of the Gods" "Grand Mesa"
Where only a series name is listed, most (but not all) cars had names with that word as part of the name. Santa Fe-assigned cars all had non-series names.
Thanks to the Pullman Project database for most of the info.
daveklepperPullman did build an aluminum full-scale sleeper, standard-dimension, but Google did not help me to find it.
For some reason my memory kicks out 1933 and Century of Progress as being where that early 'all aluminum' car was introduced; that would be explicitly out of the question's scope except if something technical were done to it in 1939.
My Mem ory is a bit fuzzier than I thought. I was thinking of the pendulum car, and it was not built by Pullman.
Pullman did build an aluminum full-scale sleeper, standard-dimension, but Google did not help me to find it.
Also a one-off "Entertainment Car." but again Google did not give me the needed information.
Somebody else will have more success at this question.
daveklepperShould I post what I do think I know?
If it's American Milemaster or the 'twins' from 1936 that I think became the Bear Flag/California Republic, by all means! (And if not, I'd love to see your discussion of the technological details!)
[Note how carefully I avoid what the trains or routes in the actual question are.]
If it's American Milemaster or the 'twins' that I think became the Bear Flag, by all means! (And if not, I'd love to see your discussion of the technological details!)
Dave, if you know the car, you could find the answers to the rest of the question on the web. Do you want to try looking for it? If not, please post it.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
I think I know the car, and it was a case of technology, very forward looking as duplicated as to purpose in equipment in operation in North America today, rather than a matter of interior layout; but I don't know the answers to the rest of the question. Should I post what I do think I know?
Thanks to you all ! How can I say no to this opportunity!
Pullman Company wanted to introduce a new type of passenger car and service in late 1939, at least one car was made for this, and was attached to at least three named trains of three different U.S. railroads for experimental run. What was the name of that car and service, the name of the three trains that had it attached, and the name of the three railroads?
Overmod Home » Classic Trains » Forums » General Discussion (Classic Trains) New Reply Fill out the form below to create a new reply to the thread RE: Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older). Overmod wrote the following post 31 minutes ago:
OH no, I was careful. Go back and look. You actually typed the word 'Wentworth' first.
if you don't want it then yes, I say let Jones1945 have it for the picture...
Go, Overmod!
That whole website is a wonderful present. Everthing you could possibly want to know and see about the South Beach branch.
No, unless the Moderator overrules me, I say Jones now gets the award, with that wonderful photograph that shows just what the Wentworth Avenue station was, really refresing my memory. And yes, most South Beach trains were single cars, weekday rush hour being the exceptions. Even on sunny summer Sundays, when the beach traffic would almost fill the single car.
Seats were walkover two-and-two, like most commuter cars, but the upholstery was the yellow rattan as typical for New York City subway cars of the period. Engineer and conductor on the single car.
That picture is a wonderful holiday present for me. Of course maybe someday I'll find one that I may have taken. Sill possible.
rcdrye, that means YOU.
Source: http://www.gretschviking.net/GOSIRTPagePartTwo.htm
The station was probably one of the smallest of its kind, but still there was a bench inside the tiny waiting room. Very considerate!
The entire B&O eletrification of the SIRT was with the intent of a St. George - Bay Ridge tunnel, to be built at NYCity's expense, to connect the SIRT with the BMT. In fact, the tunnel stubs leading to such a tunnel were included in the construction of the 4th Avenue subway and still exist today, just south of those leading to the Sea Beach line, the N, where it leaves the 4th Avenue Subway south of 69th Street Station.
The SIRT MUs were based on the BMT steel standards, and some ended up to end a B-Division car shortage on the Culver line before it was replaced by the 9th Avenue - Ditmas shuttle some time after the D began running south of Church Avenue to Coney Island. (The D was first extended to Brooklyn on the Culver, now served by the F, then the Brighton, now the B, and then the West End, whcih had been the B and before Chryste Street, 1968, the T and before that the 3.)
You named the street, Wentworth Avenue, so you ask the next question.
The SIRT cars differed from the BMT standards in that they had the dooir configurations of the IRT low-Vs, end vestibutes with engineer's controls, typical railroad mu practdice, and center doors. But the dimensions, and electrical and mechancial equipment were similar if not identical.
daveklepper It was used by the public, including regular commuters.
Think of it as being 'just a little further along' than South Beach station, for those commuters who'd find that valuable. No need for a full platform, or even platform both sides.
Remember the electric lights? The little platform had them, but the physical switch was all the way back in South Beach.
The thing I always thought presaged the 'intended purpose' of the line was that there was a second track at Wentworth, but it wasn't electrified. I never thought to look, though, to see if it had periodic longer ties ... if I'm right in speculating, it would. The only conceivable reason to engage in expensive electrification of the South Beach branch first would be relatively quick follow-on to a Narrows crossing of some electrified kind, with all the advantages that have been discussed.
Not quite the magnitude of the 'lost opportunities' to bridge the Sound at Orient Point or the Straits between the pieces of Michigan, both of which were within the realm of possibility even in 1893. But still a big one. And without the silliness involved with the 1834 compact and all that in bridging from New Jersey to New York!
It was used by the public, including regular commuters. The station even had a sign with its name. The stairs from the platform led to a street for which the station was named.
It was the stub "change ends" track for the South Beach line. Not clear to me if the station was open to the public.
The thing I still want to know is the point of extending service like this in 1925, at the time of electrification. Was this some kind of layover track for equipment that got a convenience platform? Doesn't seem like a first step toward a Narrows approach but if I recall correctly there was a road and rail bridge proposal around this time, and setting up ROW for it is precisely the sort of thing that Vanderbilts might impede eminent domain on...
The South Beach line ended at the Wentworth Avenue station. There appear to have been two tracks there, but only one had third rail, with the short platform on the east side of the tracks. South Beach station was a short ways north of Wentworth Avenue.
Dave, I'm purposely leaving the station names and route 'on the beach' as it were for others to find and take. They'll have more fun and will know better questions to ask in turn.
I will say this: when I found that Robin Road overpass in satellite imagery a couple of years ago, I started thinking of ways to get a house built on it...
And the stuff with rail across the Narrows is still far more relevant than it was even in the Nineties. The Arthur Kill bridge was heavily renovated and put back in service only a little more than a decade ago. Stops along the route in New Jersey, I think as far as connection with NJT at Cranfird, were fairly recently proposed (although heaven knows how seriously). As you note a subway connection offers all sorts of interesting possibilities although I think it would still be wise to have something that capital-intensive be fully stack-compatible (in no small part to give the Port of Elizabeth direct intermodal access to and from the extended regions to the east and north via an otherwise in-place and relatively underutilized (by freight at least) connection up and out of the whole New York bottleneck...
As I recall, the deepest part of the Ambrose Channel, nearly 100', is right at the bridge, in the region of the Narrows where the historical tunnel crossing from The Line I Do Not Name would go. This is supposed to be dredged to facilitate container ships with 60' draft, so a tube with adequate safety clearance and what would probably be pushing 30' tube diameter with track in the bottom 5'-6' height of chord, might be needed. Question is whether that part could be laid in sections like some of the BART tunnels in a dredged cross trench and anchored like one of the 'inverted-bridge' designs instead of needing to be so deep it wouldn't 'breathe' with tidal action as the PRR tunnels did. Then Alameda Corridor trenching at nominal low-grade profile from there to Bay Ridge? Following some of the 'elevated' expressway footprints as much of the way as possible?
If my memory is correct, it was only ten feet long, long enoiugh for just one door, at the end of the head inbound car to load and unload. High platform. You hsve not named the station, and you or someone else might answer. I actually used the statin once. Also the name of the route. Hint: The name of the route was the next station, which far more people used.
I agree with you about a bridge or a tunnel between st. George and Bay Ridge. It's a sensible idea today. It could have both third rail dc and overhead catenary and be used both for freight and to connect the Totenville line to the Forth Avenue subway, which does have the capacity to handle the additonal service. Freight Midnight - 6AM, subway service otherwise.
Is this the station with one platform only about 20' long, built so that the railroad wouldn't run across a Vanderbilt-owned farm? With electric lights, but no switch for them (it was located in the next station up) Put in as part of the electrification project, very late as these things go, mid-Twenties.
I'll leave it for others to fill in the simple blanks if this is it.
I still think it is one of the great failures of railroading that B&O/PRR did not get this line extended across the Narrows, either via the original bridge idea or the tunnel that the electrification would facilitate. Everything else needed for heavy freight transportation around the New York bottlenecks was in place, and a direct connection from Bay Ridge to 'all points south' across the Narrows and the Arthur Kill would be greatly and definitively used, probably in preference to any Poughkeepsie Bridge route going to the parts of New England generating profitable traffic or demand.
With proper clearance it is also a pretty interesting option for Auto-Train service to either the New York area or 'through' to New England gathering points well outside the New York congestion and the New York geography that makes for so many bridges and tolls...
When the B&O owned the suburbsn mu-electric opeerated railway on Staten Island, New York City's Borough of Richmond, three passenger lines operated out of the St. George Ferry Terminal, of which only the line to Totenville, across the harbor's bay from New Jersey's Perth Amboy. (Is a passenger ferry still operated?) The end of one of the other lines had as a terminal station a very unique one, the only one of its kind ever, combining two charactersitics that made it unique. Name the line, the station name, and the two characteristics that made it unique.
An other information about SIRT will be welcome. What made their commuter mus unique among railroad-owned mus?
Where else did some of these mus end up running?
SP's Del Monte was cut back to Monterey (from Pacific Grove) in 1963. Pacific Grove was where the turntable was, along with a small storage yard where Lucius Beebe's private car stayed during his visits to the Del Monte resort in Pebble Beach. By 1963 the likelihood of steam subbing for the regularly assigned dual-ended GP9s was zero. At the same time, 77 and 78 were merged with Commute schedules 126 and 141, dropping and picking up cars in San Jose. I paid 50 cents for the privilege of riding the last run of 126 from Castroville to Monterey on April 30, 1971.
Oh, the SP's Del Mar, if my menory of the name is correct. South from the 3rd and Townsend San Francisco terminal to some point toward Los Angeles, possibly on a branch to the Pacific Ocean coast where the main line is still somewhat inland, and the cutback would have been at the southern endpoint, since 3rd and Townsend remained until after the early 1960s. It served as a commuter run even before merged into the commuter schedules, and was particularly well-patornized in the summer. Was Gilroy the revised southern end-point?
Oakland Mole is only a bit more than a mile from 16th St. Oakland Mole was dropped in 1957 anf never had a turntable. If it's any help, the train involved was merged with a commuter schedule.
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