MiningmanSo then a thought...overnight trains, old style Pullman plush accommodations and Steam powered! Night trains, whistles, romance, crisp sheets, wool blankets, all that ... Just say for a moment ( humour me fellas) that the Soo Line kept that one overnight train Duluth-Minneapolis, the original equipment meticulously maintained ( CPR Canadian equipment is still going because of CP's rigorous maintenance from the get go) and say 4 of their steam locomotives, perhaps light Pacifics or ten wheelers were kept just for this because .. just because. After all it's Duluth and that's the way it's done.
I'll go two better. The train to 'preserve' isn't the Spartan budget train at all; it's the earlier 1907 Trains Deluxe, with much better long red cars and unforgettable service. Better destination pairs, too...
And the way to provide it doesn't need to involve preservation (which sure wouldn't have happened between the Twin Cities and the Twin Ports!) ... only restoration. There was a fellow in Australia a couple of decades ago who had the interesting idea of rebuilding the Titanic, waterline up nostalgic, waterline down modern. He had the money to do it, and it was interesting to see all the potential resources and craftsmen who came out of the woodwork once the means were there. The same is certainly true for modern construction: the corrugated-side stainless streamliner craze has gone the way of Formica counters or marble lollipops as necessary design language for passenger trains, and while Ed Ellis certainly hit snags operating 'luxury legacy service' we have some very marked successes on the Canadian side in providing the 'right stuff'.
So 1907-style shells, replicas of the 1914 observation cars, some sort of 'unisex' equivalent to alligator billfolds and orchid corsages, well-coordinated on-board cuisine ... proper childcare facilities ... all in easy-to-maintain surface finish over the best of modern craftsmanship in woods and metals for interiors. In appropriate CEM shell construction with low-unsprung-mass trucks with three-axis active elements ... and perhaps working negative-cant-deficiency systems for nighttime comfort. (I am tempted to invoke the Orient Express vibe for further train development, but we can take that up with our overseas compatriots...)
Of course you'll hear me say you'd run it with 5551 to 5554, complete with all the over-the-road support equipment and 'play nice with others' avoidance of blowdown and lubricant dribble over the road that most existing steam doesn't have. Much of the feasibility plan, right from the beginning, was involved with proper DFM for large, regularly-runnable steam, with inherently low track damage.
Might as well provide separate-train Auto-Train service, too, with proper climate-controlled cars for the Chirons and Quattroportes, and nostalgic-for-a-different-era customers with Maybachs....
You can't tell me that today, and for that matter all along, that would not be a phenomenal thing with the public at large and it would be sold out and booked months in advance. Young couples, old couples, party people, business folks, newlyweds, everyone and their dog would want to Ride the Glide!
The problem being, in part, that I just don't see the luxury traffic developing in the lane between those destination pairs, even if they get the lead out and build it to 110mph standards as promised. You need REAL overnight or cruise-train service for that, especially if you're to get around Ed Ellis' problem and make it through any lean times with your standards as well as your pocketbook intact.
... From all over North America, Japan, China, Europe, everywhere. You betcha!
Perhaps the most important aspect of this project is intangible: we need the staff of the Fort Wayne museum channelling G.H.Daniels to reach all the right buttons on all the different forms of media -- and I think Kelly et al. are fully up to the challenge; just give them the right staff, the right inspiration to expand, and the right resources...
Yes, I think if it follows the exclusive-restaurant model you could easily book it full the appropriate number of months in advance to ensure your business model ... and then put teeth in a waiting-list/standby travel plan.
Of course, and much as I hate to say this, you'll need better names. Very likely that if Soo had retained the train in question during the Sixties, it might have tried capitalizing on the moon-shot frenzy that gave us Apollos and such for train names, and called their train the 'Astro-Glide' (in keeping with its counterpart the 'Afternoon Delight', the midday 'Nooner' service, and other promising ways to ensure reproduction of a fine order. Heck, we could implement a whole new order of onboard services, provided in relays by teams of trained professionals boarding and deboarding (discreetly, of course) at appropriate points during both night and day. Call off your old tired ethics, boys! There's more than Anderson's way to ensure net profitability!
Note the other services still advertised - it was a (rare) time of passenger optimism for the Soo.
The Spokane/Portland service (via CP, Spokane International and UP's OWR&N) lasted until the beginning of WW I. I think the Boston through service (Soo, CP, B&M - handoff to B&M still in Quebec in those days) only lasted into 1913. For those following other forum topics, that one ran via the B&M's White Mountain Division. The 1913 and later Boston-Montreal Red Wing service ran via White River Jct. Vt., combined with the New Englander cars headed for Montreal via the Central Vermont.
P. S. Don't Forget the Soo. ?? !!
Allrighty then.
They should and could have had an 'Afternoon Delight' in between to complete the not so subtle suggestive names.
Perhaps that's why the names were dropped. The Brits were stuffy but the Americans had 'temperance'. Quebecers would have loved it but in French.
Anyway, ponder on this a minute -- Over on the Trains Forum there are several mentions of NEW and seemingly successful OVERNIGHT trains in Europe and Asia. It seems to be a trend and regarded as something 'new', bold, exciting, responsible and common sensed.
So then a thought...overnight trains, old style Pullman plush accommodations and Steam powered! Night trains, whistles, romance, crisp sheets, wool blankets, all that.
Just say for a moment ( humour me fellas) that the Soo Line kept that one overnight train Duluth-Minneapolis, the original equipment meticulously maintained ( CPR Canadian equipment is still going because of CP's rigorous maintenance from the get go) and say 4 of their steam locomotives, perhaps light Pacifics or ten wheelers were kept just for this because .. just because. After all it's Duluth and that's the way it's done.
You can't tell me that today, and for that matter all along, that would not be a phenomenal thing with the public at large and it would be sold out and booked months in adavance. Young couples, old couples, party people, business folks, newlyweds, everyone and their dog would want to Ride the Glide! Some Daytime and Afternoon Delight! From all over North America, Japan, China, Europe, everywhere. You betcha!
Mike finds it!!! 'Daylight Delight' and 'Glide'
Miningman Mike weighs in: Soo Line https://cdn.loc.gov/service/gdc/lhbum/66365/66365027.jpg https://cdn.loc.gov/service/gdc/lhbum/66365/66365028.jpg https://cdn.loc.gov/service/gdc/lhbum/66365/66365029.jpg
Mike weighs in:
The above schedule shows the trains with the labels given. The names I'm looking for existed from the trains inauguration only for a short time, maybe for a few weeks. Lets put it this way - the August 1912 Official Guide has the names, but the October issue does not. Also, the names were included in ads and articles (at least one of them for the latter.)
Clarification: The labels "Afternoon Train" and "Night Train" were being shown concurrently with the names I'm looking for.
rcdrye The day trains 62 and 63 (well, afternoon) which carried "Buffet, Library, Observation, Parlor Car and Coaches" were shown in the 1928 public timetable as the "Duluth-Superior Limited". By that time the night train had been dropped.
The day trains 62 and 63 (well, afternoon) which carried "Buffet, Library, Observation, Parlor Car and Coaches" were shown in the 1928 public timetable as the "Duluth-Superior Limited". By that time the night train had been dropped.
Miningman Well I found this which is kind of spiffy. Geez, vacuum cleaned! Sure wish I could have rode a Soo Line train, any would be fine but a night train would be best. Haven't found the names though! Maybe they were called 'Electric Lighted' and 'Vacuum Cleaned'. That's pretty unconventional! ( just kidding, ok )
Well I found this which is kind of spiffy. Geez, vacuum cleaned! Sure wish I could have rode a Soo Line train, any would be fine but a night train would be best. Haven't found the names though!
Maybe they were called 'Electric Lighted' and 'Vacuum Cleaned'. That's pretty unconventional! ( just kidding, ok )
It's interesting to note that Soo Line consistently noted the "Vacuum Cleaned" aspect of their trains in their ads in the years before WWI.
Once Upon a Time...
a new passenger train service was cause for celebration, and the citizens of Duluth, Minnesota had reason to party when Soo Line started a double daily Minneapolis-Duluth service on August 1, 1912. According to the local paper, several hundred people were on hand to see the first train off to Minneapolis. Furthermore, "The train also carried a large passenger list, each one of them will be able to say in future years; "I rode on the first Soo line train out of Duluth to Minneapolis"." The first northbound arrival at Duluth was met by a local marching band. Never mind that Northern Pacific already had three trains running between those two points.
The trains were mostly made up of steel cars, painted in Soo's familiar wine red. The day train offered coaches, a parlor, and a cafe-library-observation car. The night train just had steel coaches and sleepers.
Looking in Soo Line timetables of the pre-WWI era, the trains were not named - just labled "Afternoon Train" and "Night Train". But, for a brief period after their startup, they did carry names. Names that, in my opinion, did not follow the typical naming conventions of the time.
What were those names?
Still waiting on you!
Overmod ZephyrOverland has the one I was thinking of. The original reference did not know the name of the car that was 'repainted' for the photo op, perhaps with little more than a sticker-like appliqué (it did seem to me you could considerably reduce the 'alternatives' to those that the lined sticker would cover, but if the cars were only numbered that theory falls to the ground.) I purposely exploited the fact that this name was highly unlikely to be in the 'official' Pullman database, even as a note... ZO, it's yours. (Whew!)
ZephyrOverland has the one I was thinking of.
The original reference did not know the name of the car that was 'repainted' for the photo op, perhaps with little more than a sticker-like appliqué (it did seem to me you could considerably reduce the 'alternatives' to those that the lined sticker would cover, but if the cars were only numbered that theory falls to the ground.)
I purposely exploited the fact that this name was highly unlikely to be in the 'official' Pullman database, even as a note...
ZO, it's yours. (Whew!)
I will post a question in a few days.
rcdrye Must have been just for the publicity shots. "Deanna" doesn't show up in the Pullman Project database. From what I can gather the car was from the "Lark" pool, where all the cars had numbers and not names, even in 1942.
Must have been just for the publicity shots. "Deanna" doesn't show up in the Pullman Project database.
From what I can gather the car was from the "Lark" pool, where all the cars had numbers and not names, even in 1942.
Most likely it was a temporary naming of the car for publicity purposes.
Overmod Let's see who makes headway on this, then: relay it to Mike as appropriate. Give me a Pullman car named for a Hollywood actress. (And explain why.) Has to be the precise name on the car, not on the actress.
Let's see who makes headway on this, then: relay it to Mike as appropriate.
Give me a Pullman car named for a Hollywood actress. (And explain why.) Has to be the precise name on the car, not on the actress.
Would this be the "Deanna", named for Deanna Durbin, a SP-assigned Pullman named for her in conjunction with the release of her Universal picture "Lady on a Train" in 1945?
Jones1945 Yes, Overmod you got it! It was the Pan-American operated by the Louisville and Nashville Railroad (L&N) Details provided by Mike: http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/files/pdf/the-grand-ole-pan-american.pdf https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=mdp.39015010881251;seq=26;size=150;rotation=0 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=mdp.39015010881251;seq=31;size=150;rotation=0
Yes, Overmod you got it! It was the Pan-American operated by the Louisville and Nashville Railroad (L&N)
Details provided by Mike:
http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/files/pdf/the-grand-ole-pan-american.pdf
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=mdp.39015010881251;seq=26;size=150;rotation=0
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=mdp.39015010881251;seq=31;size=150;rotation=0
Just an FYI...there were other trains that got the radio bug as well. At least in the Chicago area there was a program called "The 400 Hour" which consisted of classical music. From 1946 to 1951 on the Mutual Network there was "Bob Elson Aboard the Twentieth Century Limited" where Mr. Elson would do quick interviews of notables who were boarding the 20th Century Limited at La Salle Street Station. In the late 1920s Dixie Route partners C&EI and L&N sponsored a radio program that offered music provided by a group named the "Dixie Flyers."
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
The short answer is the Pan-American over station WSM, but it wasn't much of a 'program', more like an interesting time signal.
Of course, there was the Midnight Special (Alton/GM&O), but that's indirect via the song of that name...
If that's it ... give me a Pullman car named for a Hollywood actress. (And explain why.) Has to be the precise name on the car, not on the actress.
Question from Mike: What train became a radio program?
Thank you rcdrye for providing even more information that I couldn't find from my primary source! You guys are amazing. Yes, the "late 1939" date was a spicy Red Herring, though I think it is a reasonable inference that Pullman didn't rush the whole Coach-Sleeper project within six months.
With the information rcdrye provided, now we know that there were four of them in total, their original names before modified, the fact that they were rebuilt from heavyweight cars instead of completely new cars, and the fate of them after WWII.
Troop sleeps for peeps!
Would sure be nifty as an alternative to straight coach if going to the World's Fair... oh wait, it's almost over and most people who were going to go have already gone...
Then after the war, the emphasis more and more was on keeping any kind of clientele, not just the ones who would drive and stay in motels rather than brave summer-camp-like sleeping comfort provisions...
Leads me to wonder, if there was a 'Touralux', there couldn't be a lower-tier service with more hostel-style bunks -- they've become a 'thing' in some other parts of the world. What would you call it? 'Tour4cheap'?
Ah. The 1939 date was a Red Herring!
Plan 2416 24 Parlor Seat 1 DR cars assigned to the PRR were rebuilt into Plan 4094 coach-sleepers
"Avondale", built in 1922, was rebuilt as "Coach-Sleeper I" in June of 1940
"Idlewild", built in 1922, was rebuilt as "Coach-Sleeper II" in June of 1940
"Thorndale", built in 1922, was rebuilt as "Coach-Sleeper III" in November of 1940
"Wierwood", built in 1922, was rebuilt as "Coach-Sleeper IV" in December of 1940
All four cars were redesignated Tourist Cars 1-4 in August of 1942 , retaining plan 4094, so probably with little or no change other than redisignation. All four probably spent World War II on troop trains, and were re-redesignated (and renamed) as Coach-Sleeper I-IV in 1946. Still listed in the Descriptive List in 1950, I and II had 45 single berths, III and IV had 42 single berths. All four were sold for scrap in 1961. Despite the three-tier bunks their PMB (Pullman Mechanical, Brine Auxiliary) air-conditioning would have made them better-than-average accomodations on troop trains.
Thanks again to the Pullman Project database.
I just received an email from Mike with two attached files of the correct answer!
Mike provided even more information than my source:
Besides the Exposition Flyer of Western Pacific, the Coach-Sleeper was also attached to Northern Pacific's North Coast Limited, the Empire Builder of the Great Northern, and my favorite all-coach streamliner PRR's Trail Blazer!
Mike, if you read this please let me or Vince know your question. Thanks! : )
Maybe my broken English fails to express the idea. It was a completely new passenger car built for a new type of service (service = Sleeper, Parlor Cars, etc) that Pullman Company never provided before June 30, 1940, the name of the car was exactly equal to that new service Pullman Company wanted to provide. It was an unsuccessful experiment. No railroad purchased that car, and its whereabouts is not known after the experiment. Good luck!
Jones1945It looked like a heavyweight car instead of a streamlined lightweight sleeper.
Oh, this is bad. I'm drawing a complete blank on what this could be. From the sidelines I'm looking forward to learning what the answer is.
According to several sources "American Milemaster" was built with "Room-Observation-Sleeping Car" where its name eventually went, not receiving the name until after the contest. It was painted UP Streamliner yellow 2/8/40 for service on the train set that replaced C&NW/UP/SP's "City of San Francisco" after the 1939 derailment. Repainted again to Overland two-tone gray 7/2/1940 for "Treasure Island" service - incidentally replacing "California Republic" as that train's observation. It also ran on the CRI&P/SP Arizona Limited along with various short assignments as a Pullman Pool spare.
Repainted again 12/23/41 to SP "Lark" gray, and given the number 400. It ran in the "Oakland Lark" until 1960, getting renumbered to SP 9500 in 1949 (and losing its "Pullman" in favor of "Southern Pacific". Last rework by Pullman in 12/57, when it got the blunt end.
9500 stayed in the SP fleet under Pullman lease until 1/28/1963 after which it went to EMD as test car ET800 (on cover of recent "Trains" issue). Conrail bought it in 1985 as a track geometry car (22).
Haha, one more hint and you guys will get it ... The idea of building this car for the new service was born between late 1939 and early 1940, the new car was put into experimental runs, not until June 1940. It looked like a heavyweight car instead of a streamlined lightweight sleeper.
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