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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 10:25 AM

Although the Westchester service was beyond the Chicago city limits, it was within the legally defined service area of the CTA.  It was replaced by a CTA bus route (Route 17) in 1951 which continued as a CTA route until recently, when PACE took over the service.  The real issue was in Du Page County, where the locals wanted to keep anything that suggested Chicago out of their turf.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:16 AM

Overmod
f I'm not mistaken, that claim by the T's 'predecessor' was a large reason why the service that became the Blue Line was not extended to Lynn...

The T didn't become regional until the 1960s, and had various relationships with non-city agencies.  Lynn would have required some buy-in as it was outside of Boston's city limits.  The obstacles to extension were in place by that time - plus the T contracted for service from the B&M. 

In a way it was similar to attempts to extend CTA operation over the former CA&E in the Chicago suburbs after CA&E abandoned service.  It didn't matter that the BRB&L had been there before any more than it did that the former CRT/CTA Westchester service had existed, since neither city was interested in paying for service beyond city limits.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:02 AM

rcdrye
Adequate service to Lynn by the T on the ex-B&M Eastern route means there's no longer any point in extending the Blue Line.

If I'm not mistaken, that claim by the T's 'predecessor' was a large reason why the service that became the Blue Line was not extended to Lynn...

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 8:32 AM

And the Blue line is the only T "heavy" line using overhead wire.  The East Boston tunnel was built in 1904 for larger-than-streetcar, smaller-than-rapid-transit equipment with a tight loop at the Bowdoin end, used by streetcars before being converted to rapid transit (with short cars - 47'3" - Boston Center Entrance streetcars are 48'10") in 1924.  The result is that even today, Blue Line cars are among the shortest rapid transit equipment in service. Originally the line was supposed to go to Lynn, but it never got past Wonderland. The ROW north of Wonderland has since been partially built over or encroached on by route 1A.  There's also the missing bridge going into Lynn itself.  Adequate service to Lynn by the T on the ex-B&M Eastern route means there's no onger any point in extending the Blue Line.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 7:58 AM

The last one first.  For some strange reason the RoW was built to accommodate standard-gauge tie length (perhaps those were available cheaply used?) so the principal 'saving' in building to narrow-gauge standards was the ability to use 30lb rail for the lighter equipment weight (this being upgraded through 50lb to 70lb but still tiny'

I think the 'standard gauge' is that odd Port Shirley street-railway operation, a trolle line that never had a trolley.  (First gas operation, I think entirely before BRB&L took them over, then battery)

They 'went south' as so many interurbans did, in the Twenties, and got scrapped out with the usual waste of assets.  The elevated company wanted to convert at least a part of the line to high-speed trolley after 1941, but the announced preference was for more conventional rail rapid transit, which is what is now in place (the Blue Line) under wire again ... but it STILL only goes to Wonderland.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 4:30 AM

Regarding the history of the Boston Revere Beach and Lynn

What nearby railroad had a proposal to buy it and standard-gauge it?  What else did they propose to do to improve it?

Was any of its RoW standard gauged?  Who. when, what, why?

What is visually similar about that portion of the RoW today and the last ten years of the BRB&L operation?  What is similar operationally?

Even in initial construction, in what way did building narrow gauge not save any construction money?

Reply if you get most of the answers.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 13, 2020 11:38 AM

All of the SP-owned prewar lightweights assigned to the "Golden State Limited" were originally given only numbers like contemporary "Lark" cars.  The gars were given "Golden" series names in 1942.  Postwar seven cars similar to cars assigned to the "Sunset" and "Cascade" arrived with "Golden" series names.  All SP-owned "Golden" cars were officially renumbered by SP in 1953.  Rock Island cars assigned to the Golden State continued to carry "Golden" names, including some new 8 rmt 6 DBR cars that arrived in 1954.

Your question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 12, 2020 10:17 PM

Then SP, Golden State, SP and RI.

But then later, some of the cars did migrate to the CofSF, the Oakland - Ogden sleeper that I rode in 1970 was one, I believe.

Not Armor Yelow, for sure.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, January 12, 2020 12:02 PM

daveklepper
I think the lightweights in the question were SP and on the C&NW, UP, and SP  City of SF.

One of the right railroads, wrong train.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 12, 2020 1:17 AM

The Brunzwick - Jesup train carrying the sleeper off the KC-Jax train was listed as coach-only because the sleeper was restricted to through passengers.

I think the lightweights in the question were SP and on the C&NW, UP, and SP  City of SF.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 11, 2020 4:58 PM

I believe that the two trains were consolidated between Macon and Jacksonville because of the coal miners' strike. Some trains were temporarily abolished at that time as I recall.

Johnny

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, January 11, 2020 2:17 PM

Deggesty

There was a short time (I do not remember just when) the KC-Florida Special and Royal Palm swapped roads between Macon and Jacksonville.

 
There were several time periods where the Macon-Jacksonville schedules of the Kansas City-Florida Special and Royal Palm were modified in relation to each other:
 
Normally, the KC-Florida Special operated via Jesup and the Royal Palm operated via Valdosta.
 
- From mid-1933 to mid-1936, both trains had their routing switched, the KC-Florida Special running via Valdosta and Royal Palm via Jesup.
 
- In the winter seasons of 1940, 41 and 42, both the Special and the Palm had their south-of-Macon routing modified: the Special operated southbound via Valdosta and northbound via Jesup, and the Palm operated southbound via Jesup and northbound via Valdosta. By spring of each year, both trains would return to their normal routing.
 
- From April of 1947 through January of 1948, the Special and the Palm were combined between Atlanta and Jacksonville via Valdosta. The through cars of the Jacksonville-Asheville Skyland Special were normally handled on whichever train that operated via Jesup, but during this time the Skyland Special was operated as an indepedent train to/from Jacksonville, something that was not done since 1931.
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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 11, 2020 10:23 AM

Went back and checked the 1948 Guide again.  The 10-2-1 Atlanta-Brunswick Pullman is listed under "other sleeping car routes", but the Jesup-Brunswick "Motor Train" is listed as coach-only, even though its times match the sleeper's. 

This Chicago-West coast train got lightweight Pullmans in 1942.  About half of the Pullman cars were delivered with numbers instead of names.  The numbered cars were soon given names and the numbers were removed.  After the war when other lightweight equipment arrived, the now-named cars (plus seven named postwar cars) were given new numbers, and the names were removed.   Name the train and the railroads involved.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 6, 2020 8:51 PM

Please, the Atlanta-Brunswick line was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in the U.S,A.--and David P. Morgan and his wife rode it in, I believe, 1965. Southern's 10/31/1965 passenger TT shows the Birmingham-Brunswick train with the Atlanta-Brunswick Pullman. 

I did not dig in my Southern collection to determine just when the KC-Birmingham train was cut off.

There was a short time (I do not remember just when) the KC-Florida Special and Royal Palm swapped roads between Macon and Jacksonville.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 6, 2020 4:19 PM

The Jesup-Brunswick "Motor Train" connected with the Kansas City-Florida Special.

Since the KC-F Special no longer carried the Brunswick sleeper in 1948, I'd have to speculate where the car originated.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 6, 2020 1:37 PM

rcdrye

These are the trains that Southern operated with Fairbanks-Morse power cars, with 800 HP OP engines and 2-A1A (later 3-A1A) trucks.   I haven't quit sorted out the names, because 4 of the cars were named, but only three trains.  The cars were named "Cracker", "Goldenrod", "Vulcan" and "Joe Wheeler", of which I think the last three were also train names.The Brunswick-Jesup train carried a Pullman for Brunswick, connecting to a Florida train (the Skyland Special?)

 

Pretty good!--except for two errors; In 1943, the "Cracker" (think "Georgia") ran Atlanta-Brunswick; it did make it possible to connect with the Skyland Special in Jesup, but passengers had to change whether they rode coach or Pullman--what other train connected with it and carried a through Pullman for Brusnwick?

I saw the "Vulcan" in Birmingham once in the fifties after it had arrived from Mobile one afternoon, and was a little puzzled by its name (I did not then know all of the names); by then the Goldenrod ran only between Birmingham and Mobile.

Just think--three Southern trains in the ACL station in Jesup at one time! One in from Brunswick, one in from Jacksonville that dropped cars for Charlotte and Asheville, and  picked up a car that came from Brunswick and left for.... 

And the reverse process early in the morning!

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 6, 2020 11:59 AM

These are the trains that Southern operated with Fairbanks-Morse power cars, with 800 HP OP engines and 2-A1A (later 3-A1A) trucks.   I haven't quit sorted out the names, because 4 of the cars were named, but only three trains.  The cars were named "Cracker", "Goldenrod", "Vulcan" and "Joe Wheeler", of which I think the last three were also train names.The Brunswick-Jesup train carried a Pullman for Brunswick, connecting to a Florida train (the Skyland Special?)

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, January 6, 2020 11:42 AM

This wouldn't have anything to do with my beloved Cracker, Goldenrod, Joe Wheeler and Vulcan, would it?

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, January 6, 2020 11:21 AM

In 1943, the Southern operated 5 trains that had something in common: Chattanooga-Tuscumbia, Alabama; Sheffield, Alabama,-Parrish, Alabama; Columbus, Mississippi-Mobile, Alabama; Atlanta-Brunswick, Georgia; and Brunswick-Jesup, Georgia. What did these trains have in common.What was different about the Brunswick-Jesup train? Three of the trains were named; what were the names?

Johnny

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, January 5, 2020 1:44 PM

From Mike:

 

Chapter from Around the World in 80 Days
 
 

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:11 PM

Of course. I take full resposibilty for the mess and the wording.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 4, 2020 8:37 PM

Miningman
.....was named long after a warship in a French novel

Just not after a French ship in a French novel...

Maybe it would be safer to say that the ship and the train were named after the same person...

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 8:27 PM

I completely screwed up the hint.  Must have been the Morchella Esculenta soup.  My huge apologies to Mike.  Should never have mentioned the movie.. just the pics shown by Mike.

Well Johnny got it anyway and it looks as if he didn't require my silly wording.

https://archive.org/details/vingtmillelieue00vern/page/n8

 

Photo of the Day caption: Baltimore & Ohio No. 50, one of five box-cab passenger diesels built by Electro-Motive Corp. in 1935, handles the Abraham Lincoln of B&O subsidiary Alton Railroad at Bloomington, Ill., in 1939. Paul Stringham photo
B&O 50, The Mother of All Passenger Diesels
.
.....was named long after a warship in a French novel.  
 

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 4, 2020 7:27 PM

Miningman

No no... the name of the train we are seeking is the same as the name of the ship in the French novel AND the name of a ship featured in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, obviously not the Nautilus. 

The movie is not the 'modern'  Disney one. 

 

In the book, the party looking for the ship sail from New York in the Abraham Lincoln, in 1866-- which is interesting for The Mysterious Island, which tells of Captain Nemo's death, and is also written by Jules Verne, begins in Richmond in 1864 or 1865 as the protagonists leave Richmond in a balloon basket, land on the Island that is over where the Nautilus is found, immobile. and the ballooners live there quite some time before an undersea volcano blows its top.  

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 4, 2020 7:10 PM

From the book I get the French ships Astrolabe, Bayonnaise, Boussole, Helvetia, Recherche and Scotia.  Except for CN's Scotian I haven't found any matching North American trains...

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 6:15 PM

No no... the name of the train we are seeking is the same as the name of the ship in the French novel AND the name of a ship featured in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, obviously not the Nautilus. 

The movie is not the 'modern'  Disney one. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 4, 2020 5:39 PM

The only "Nautilis" I can find was the Pullman-built Aquarium car used by the Shedd Aquarioum.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, January 4, 2020 5:31 PM

Hint:


The name the ship was tied into 20,000 Leagues under the Sea

 
 
 
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Posted by Miningman on Friday, January 3, 2020 10:23 PM

Ok all good.

Mikes question to the great unwashed out there.

This train was named after a warship in a French novel. Wait, this train was named long after a warship in a French novel.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, January 3, 2020 8:02 AM

Miningman

Mike finds it!!! 'Daylight Delight' and 'Glide'

 

Mike, you got it.

Someone at Soo Line must have been sipping something when those names were thought up. Or, maybe the upstart was tweaking NP's nose in trying to get additional publicity for their trains. NP, with its three trains (Day Express, Night Express and Lake Superior Limited) were already established when Soo came along, and NP made sure the public remembered that through their ads that were placed near Soo Lines entry. As mentioned before, the Daylight Delight and Glide monikers were gone in a matter of weeks, leaving the Afternoon Train and Night Train labels to do the branding job for Soo's Duluth trains.

Mike, you have the next question.

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