Trains.com

Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

856707 views
8197 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, October 16, 2020 10:28 AM

Daveklepper has the correct answer with Penn Central, ex-NYC at La Salle Street and Central and ex-PRR at Union.  It's your question

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 16, 2020 2:38 AM

Further on Indiana RR:  One of the freight interchange operations still exists, and the short-line remnant of tje interurban is the Indiana Southern Railway, not to be confused with Gennesie & Wyoming's Indianapolis - Evansville, IN, Indiana Southern Railroad. 

The Southern Indiana Railway Company runs from a CSX interchane at Watson, Indiana five miles to Speed, Indiana, where it serves the Louisville Cement Company.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 8:11 PM

Further correction.  One or teo of the Valpariso trains had that as its eastern terminal.

 

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 7:52 PM

Note that three uf Indiana Railroad's freight interchanges with steam roads continued after abandonment of passenger service and connecting main lines.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 7:39 PM

For a very short time, after the PRR & NYCentral merger into Penn Central, PC operated to the IC's Central Station, trains from Detroit and Cincinnati; to La Salle St., the "Steel Fleet" from Cleveland; and Union, trains from Valpariso and Lousville, with all these trains originating further east, or further South for Louisville, except the one ot two of the two or three Detroit trains and the Cincinnati train.  But before Amtrak started on 1 May 1971, the "Steel Fleet" from Cleveland had been moved to Union and possibly the Detroit and Cincinnayi trains as well.

And again, to correct both you and RC (although a quesrion from you is always greatly appreciated), according to the CERA book, the Monon was the only railroad that ever handled radial-coupler Indiana Railroad interurban trailers.  The Big Four and Nickle Plate did not. If these or any other railroad handled interurban trailers, which interurbans, which locations, and where is your source of information?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 15, 2020 7:07 PM

Since a couple of railroads move around a bit over the years, do you mean served the most at the same time?

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 15, 2020 1:53 PM

As requested, here's the next question: Prior to the Amtrak era, which steam road served the most downtown Chicago terminal stations and which stations were they?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 3:01 AM

The CERA book discusses the Indiana's interchanges with the Big Four and the Nickle Plate.  Those interchanges were for standatd steam-roaf freightcars only.  The distances they culd be handled on Indiana were limited by sharp curves in specific cities and towns, and Indiana interurban trailrers were not handled by these railroads. 

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 2:37 AM

The other Monon - interurban interchange was at or near Dayton, but I have not been able to decipher which company!

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 15, 2020 2:07 AM

RC, Do you consider CERA Bulletins authoritive?

Page 48 of The Indiana Railroad, the Magic Interurban- 2nd column, 2nd paragraph, 2nd and 3rd sentences.  "A later connection at Limedale, on the Terre Haute, with the Monon proved unique as the Monon would handle interurban box trailers over a short portion of their mainline, in a switch movement to a cement factory.  This was a a unique operation that was not considered by the other railroads."

Indiana RR interchanged with Indianapolis Union, where Monon had access.  This could be considered their second interchange eith Indiana RR, even though only steam road ewuipment was handled.  And Monon tnterchanged with the South Shore in several locations and at least one other interurban, name to be added

 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 11:51 AM

Close enough (as long as you ask the next question).  I was actually looking for the Nickel Plate.  The "Vans" had a pretty enlightened view of working with interurbans, and provided switching service for IRR, Northern Ohio Traction & Light, Lake Shore Electric and possibly others.  Most of the moves involved reaching a warehouse that was just off line from the interurban.

As an example of the "Vans" care for interurbans, built into Cleveland Union Terminal was an interurban terminal (separate from the Shaker Rapid terminal), including a section of private right of way to the west to allow the Lake Shore Electric and Cleveland & Southwestern to avoid a lot of street running.  By the time the CUT project was complete the only remaining interurban in Cleveland was Lake Shore Electric. LSE never had the money to lay track on the bypass, and loaded out front of CUT on Public Square until the end of operations.

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, October 14, 2020 10:14 AM

I'm going to suggest that the road in question is the Clover Leaf.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 10:58 AM

Actual midwest road.  Did not reach east coast and only touched the Mississipi.  Cars handled included CERA box trailers.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 9:44 AM

Is this an actual 'Midwest' road and not a Midwest subsidiary of something like, say, C&O of Indiana?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 8:42 AM

Both South Shore and IT handled interurban-style boxcars, but they're not steam roads.  The railroad operated mainly in the midwest.  The railroad also had a reputation for being friendly to interurban's passenger needs, though the largest pro-interurban project was never used.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 8:06 AM

Did the railroad opeerate outside the Midwest, did it reach the East Coastho?

Are either or both the South Shore and Illinois Terminal, despite their freight equipment being entirely steam-road equipped?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:06 AM

Before and after.  This railroad had at least two with Indiana RR or its predecessors.  It also had arrangements with systems that did not connect to IRR.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 13, 2020 1:22 AM

The Monon had arrangements with Indiana Railroad.

When you write "three different systems," do you mean before or after Indiana RR was formed from sepereate systems?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 12, 2020 7:27 AM

There are many cases of interurbans handling steam-road freight cars.  This midwestern steam road was one of the very few that would handle interurban-standard trailers in interchange, even if only for short distances.  This particular carrier had arrangements in at least three places with at least three different interurban systems.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Monday, October 12, 2020 4:29 AM

ZephyrOverland
So I'll give the next question to you while giving a shout out to Overmod for getting the name.

Exactly as it should be, except that I get very little credit, less than implied here, since all the relevant information to find what I did was suggested by others.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 12, 2020 12:49 AM

RC when, where is your question?

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, October 11, 2020 9:25 AM

rcdrye

If this was a day train out of St. louis it would almost have to be Alton-CB&Q to Kansas city (via Mexico MO).  Most if not all of the other day train length trips out of St. Louis were handled by a single railroad.  I can't (yet) verify this because the 1931 OG is still copyright-protected and the nearest physical copy in a library is about 100 miles away.

 

This is sort of frustrating, when you ask a question and several people give parts of the eventual answer. First off, here is the answer, courtesy of Railway Age of August 24, 1929:

"The Chicago & Alton and the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy have changed the name of their jointly operated Mid-Day Limited, which runs between St. Louis, Mo. and Kansas City, to the "St. Louis Robin" in honor of the plane in which Dale Jackson and Forest O'Brine established the world's endurance flight record."

Unfortunately, the endurance record which triggered the name change would be eclisped within a year and the train itself would be gone by mid-1930, an early victim of the depression, leaving the overnight Night Hawk as the only through train on this particular St. Louis-Kansas City routing.

You got the right train (minus the name) and the reason for the change, while Overmod had the right name within his last comment. So I'll give the next question to you while giving a shout out to Overmod for getting the name.

 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, October 11, 2020 7:22 AM

If this was a day train out of St. louis it would almost have to be Alton-CB&Q to Kansas city (via Mexico MO).  Most if not all of the other day train length trips out of St. Louis were handled by a single railroad.  I can't (yet) verify this because the 1931 OG is still copyright-protected and the nearest physical copy in a library is about 100 miles away.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 10, 2020 10:21 PM

And it wasn't City of Cleveland?That was the record-holder the Robin took it from.  There were quite a number of endurance record holders that year...9

 

The two Curtiss Robins were the "St. Louis Robin" and the "Missouri Robin" for those with better knowledge of esoteric trains...

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 10, 2020 10:20 PM

And it wasn't City of Cleveland?

 

The two Curtiss Robins were the "St. Louis Robin" and the "Missouri Robin" for those with better knowledge of esoteric trains...

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, October 10, 2020 9:55 PM

rcdrye

Curtiss-Robertson's plane Robin set an endurance record at St. Louis of 420 hours in 1929.  I haven't found a train to go with that yet.

 

Ok, you're getting the extra kudos for mentioning the plane type and feat that the plane accomplished. Still need the train name, railroads and endpoints.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, October 10, 2020 7:19 PM

Curtiss-Robertson's plane Robin set an endurance record at St. Louis of 420 hours in 1929.  I haven't found a train to go with that yet.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: FEC MP334
  • 961 posts
Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:49 PM

rcdrye

How about PRR's Airway Limited, inaugurated in joint service with Transcontinental Air Transport and Santa Fe.  PRR New York to Columbus, TAT to Wayoka Okla, AT&SF to Clovis NM, then TAT to Los Angeles (well, Glendale...).  Service started July 1929.

 

No, unfortunately thats not it. I don't think The Airway Limited was named after an aircraft.

The two railroads that operated this train renamed their train after a particular plane that achieved a specific feat.

Another clue: the example train I gave and the train I'm looking for shared a common endpoint.

 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, October 10, 2020 3:30 PM

How about PRR's Airway Limited, inaugurated in joint service with Transcontinental Air Transport and Santa Fe.  PRR New York to Columbus, TAT to Wayoka Okla, AT&SF to Clovis NM, then TAT to Los Angeles (well, Glendale...).  Service started July 1929.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 10, 2020 2:39 PM

In trying to answer your question, I learnred much about Rear-Admiral Byrd and Emelia Airheart, but I'm still stumprd.  Any other hints?

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter